The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread

Moderators: FJS, Inigo Montoya

zero24gravity
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,698
And1: 842
Joined: Jan 08, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#61 » by zero24gravity » Wed Dec 21, 2022 4:09 pm

zero24gravity wrote:Hoping not to jinx anything, but ... NAW! Dude has been balling-out. And not just by shooting/scoring well, which has been really impressive & consistent. His D has been solid, and while he does occasionally make an unforced turnover, it's clear he's been working on his playmaking/PG skills. With his size (6'5") and improvement, I'm starting to wonder if he could be the Jazz's next starting PG, at least in the short term.

His last 6 games, since being inserted as the primary backup PG &/or starting PG:

29 min, 11 points, 4/5 FG, 3/4 3's, 7 reb, 4 ast, 3 stl, 0 blk, 3 TO
25 min, 11 points, 4/8 FG, 2/4 3's, 4 reb, 4 ast, 1 stl, 0, blk, 1 TO
40 min, 27 points, 9/16 FG, 5/10 3's, 3 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 6 TO
25 min, 19 points, 7/10 FG, 4/6 3's, 3 reb, 6 ast, 0 stl, 2 blk, 4 TO
21 min, 7 points, 2/4 FG, 1/3 3's, 1 reb, 3 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 1 TO
19 min, 14 points, 6/8 FG, 2/4 3's, 1 reb, 5 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 3 TO

Over that stretch, his line read; 26.5 mpg, 14.8 ppg, 62.7% FG (fire!), 54.8% 3's (what?!?), 3.2 rpg, 4.0 apg, 0,8 spg, 0.7 bpg, 3.0 TO's (needs to improve)

On the season, he's now at 15 mpg, 7.1 ppg, 50.5% FG, 44% 3's, 2.2 apg, 0.6 spg, 1.4 TO's.


"Hoping not to jinx anything" Gah! Sorry about that, y'all! I clearly jinxed him. Maybe acknowledging as much will get him back on track.

Last 2 games:
19 min, 4 points, 2/7 FG, 0/1 3's, 2 reb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 0 TO
19 min, 2 points, 1/4 FG, 0/3 3's, 0 reb, 3 ast, 0 slt, 2 blk, 1 TO
NYG
RealGM
Posts: 13,700
And1: 2,594
Joined: Aug 09, 2017

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#62 » by NYG » Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:11 am

I'm working on a multi-team deal...

What pick(s) would the Jazz need from Indiana in a Daniel Theis for Kelly Olynyk swap?
AingesBurner
RealGM
Posts: 14,759
And1: 3,737
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
   

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#63 » by AingesBurner » Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:53 pm

NYG wrote:I'm working on a multi-team deal...

What pick(s) would the Jazz need from Indiana in a Daniel Theis for Kelly Olynyk swap?


What’s his contract like?
Ingles is cooked.
Crunch 99
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 3,679
Joined: Jan 05, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#64 » by Crunch 99 » Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:13 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:I can't say that I'm happy with were things are heading because it looks like we are going to end up in the worst possible spot of being on the cusp of being a playoff team and with a low draft pick--the worst of both worlds.


I am worried that you may be right about this. Hopefully Ainge has enough picks, players and trader savvy to build an actual contender over time without needing the Jazz to lose enough games this season to be in the Wembanyama sweepstakes.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Also, I'm getting a strong feeling that the Spurs are going to end up with Wembanyama.


The Spurs have a league-low, salary commitment of just $55 million dollars next season. Worse case for me, but best case for Spurs, is they draw Webanyama, and in addition, are able to sign a couple of the most promising young free agents. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
Crunch 99
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 3,679
Joined: Jan 05, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#65 » by Crunch 99 » Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:35 pm

Trading veteran Conley is probably off the table at this point, because his averages are down and his contract has very likely become a negative value from the viewpoint of other teams. Same with Gay's contract. I think we would have to give up an additional asset like a pick or a young player to move either of them, or take back bad contracts.

Conley will probably find better rhythm and raise his averages again, but there isn't a lot of time before the trade deadline to significantly impact his numbers. Even when his averages are down, Conley is still pretty valuable to us because of his mentorship and leadership, especially during clutch time in close games. And his APG has remained pretty good.
User avatar
Wolverine
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,250
And1: 112
Joined: Jul 27, 2002

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#66 » by Wolverine » Thu Dec 29, 2022 6:01 am

NYG wrote:I'm working on a multi-team deal...

What pick(s) would the Jazz need from Indiana in a Daniel Theis for Kelly Olynyk swap?

Lateral move
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 16,004
And1: 7,464
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#67 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu Dec 29, 2022 12:16 pm

Apparently there were some conversations with the Jazz about John Collins, which fell apart after the Jazz asked for picks. Good.

Proposed trade:
* Phoenix get Malik Beasley & Jarred Vanderbilt
* Utah get John Collins + assets
* Atlanta get Jae Crowder + players

Read on Twitter


I like Collins but I'm not sure how he fits with this roster, or what kind of roster the FO is trying to build. Personally, I'd rather have V8 and Beasley than Collins, so I think asking for picks is appropriate.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
AingesBurner
RealGM
Posts: 14,759
And1: 3,737
Joined: Jan 18, 2013
   

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#68 » by AingesBurner » Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:45 am

Inigo Montoya wrote:Apparently there were some conversations with the Jazz about John Collins, which fell apart after the Jazz asked for picks. Good.

Proposed trade:
* Phoenix get Malik Beasley & Jarred Vanderbilt
* Utah get John Collins + assets
* Atlanta get Jae Crowder + players

Read on Twitter


I like Collins but I'm not sure how he fits with this roster, or what kind of roster the FO is trying to build. Personally, I'd rather have V8 and Beasley than Collins, so I think asking for picks is appropriate.


Definitely.
Ingles is cooked.
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 16,004
And1: 7,464
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#69 » by Inigo Montoya » Tue Jan 3, 2023 3:41 pm

Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
User avatar
FranchisePlayer
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,763
And1: 598
Joined: Oct 25, 2019
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#70 » by FranchisePlayer » Tue Jan 3, 2023 8:17 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:Collin Sexton Out At Least One Week To Strengthen Hamstring
https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/269865/Collin-Sexton-Out-At-Least-One-Week-To-Strengthen-Hamstring


Might be good for the team. Someone has a chance to step up, we'll see who it'll be!
MrSparkle wrote:I don't see a scenario here or there where Lauri becomes the "7-pick we thought he could be." If you remove his 3P ability, he's worse than Felicio by a mile.

12/2/2022
I like the quote- it makes me chuckle. And it was/is pretty much true.
zero24gravity
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,698
And1: 842
Joined: Jan 08, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#71 » by zero24gravity » Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:22 pm

If the rumors hold any truth, it looks like the John Collins trade talks are back. However, if the yardbarker article is accurate about what the Hawks want for Collins, then I can't imagine the 2 sides ever getting close to an actual deal.

With that said, while the "fit" might be questionable, the upgrade in talent to Collins is intriguing. Still, I'd hate to see Vanderbilt and Beasley gone, as I think they really set the tone for the team with their on the floor attitude.

https://sircharlesincharge.com/2023/01/12/nba-trade-rumors-jazz-hawks-discuss/

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/269981/Jazz-Hawks-Discuss-John-Collins-For-Malik-Beasley-Jarred-Vanderbilt

https://www.yardbarker.com/nba/articles/hawks_reportedly_have_ridiculously_high_asking_price_for_a_john_collins_trade/s1_16493_38337637
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 16,004
And1: 7,464
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#72 » by Inigo Montoya » Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:01 pm

I like Collins but Collins for Beasley and Vanderbilt means the Jazz lose both defense (V8), scoring and 3 point shooting (Beasley is one of the best 3 point shooters in the league), while not improving the defense or the offense as Collins isn't a good defender, and Beasley alone is scoring more than Collins in 5 less minutes.

And then there is the matter of Olynyk who will also have to be traded or relegated to the bench, and Collins' contract. This trade does not work for me at all, even with a FRP attached unless it is unprotected.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
SoCalJazzFan
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 1,021
Joined: Jul 29, 2009

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#73 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:54 pm

Just for kicks over lunch today, I looked over the stats on NBA.com for various lineups this season. While it could use some more filters to avoid presenting too much information, what I saw was interesting. I tried to focus on lineups that had at least 100 mins together, and preferably 200 plus minutes.

I was mainly interested to see how the bigs play together.
Markk, Olynyk and Kessler have played only 104 mins together, but they have a 118.7 ORtg and 106 DRtg for a net rating of +12.8 (very good).
When either Markk or Olynyk play with Kessler, it is usually also a positive/good NRtg.

Markk, Olynyk and Vando have played together 514 mins and have a net +2.7 rating. (I interpret this, in combination with the above, to mean that Kessler should absolutely be playing with Markk and Olynyk instead of Vando).

Vando has mixed results in the various 3, 4 and 5 man lineups I looked at, but often he increases (bad) the DRtg. In some combos he is a disaster (Olynyk, Beasely and Vando together 156 mins for a -17.7 NRtg).

Beasely in nearly every lineup combo I saw increases (adversely impacts) the DRtg, sometimes dramatically. (My conclusion is that he is expendable. )

THT, on the other hand, has played limited minutes, but usually dramatically improves the DRtg (often in the 80s and 90s). (We probably need a wing like him to offer defense when needed, even if limited to certain games or matchups).

NAW is a total mixed bag, but not moving the needle too far either way.

Conley and Clarkson- also a mixed bag when playing with other combos (not with each other), but with Clarkson usually raising (good) the ORtg. The DRtg with the combos they play with are about the same.

Interestingly, the combo of Sexton and Clarkson appear to be good when paired with the bigs. If those two are paired with Beasely, it is a disaster due to bad defense.
SoCalJazzFan
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 1,021
Joined: Jul 29, 2009

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#74 » by SoCalJazzFan » Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:58 pm

^^ One of the things I was interested in is to try to estimate how Collins might do if acquired. If he can get back to form with his shooting, he could potentially be amazing. If nothing else, he would probably offer better defense and rebounding than Olynyk and thus could make a strong frontcourt with Markk and Kessler. In fact, we could have a situation not unlike the Cavs where their small and defensively challenged backcourt is balanced and well supported by their frontcourt.

Of course, the fit could end up being a disaster or Collins never recovers or is too oft injured. I lean towards hoping we acquire him at this point, though.
Crunch 99
General Manager
Posts: 7,669
And1: 3,679
Joined: Jan 05, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#75 » by Crunch 99 » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:15 pm

Kessler cracked the top five on the NBA.com Kia Rookie Ladder.

In addition, the NBA.com writer did a Defensive Rookie Ladder for kicks and Kessler topped the list. In a discussion about defense, the writer quoted NBA coaches and scouts saying most rookies are pretty clueless about playing good NBA level defense, and that learning to play good NBA defense usually takes multiple seasons. Kessler is already good enough to play effective defense in crunch time.

"Defense takes time for most 1st-year players. Utah's rookie big man has shown rare defensive instincts in his debut season."

Kia Rookie Ladder: 1. Paolo Banchero, 2. Bennedict Mathurin, 3. Jalen Williams, 4. Jaden Ivey, 5. Walker Kessler

Kia Defensive Rookie Ladder: 1. Walker Kessler, 2. Dyson Daniels, 3. Andrew Nembhard, 4. Bennedict Mathurin, 5. Paolo Banchero

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-jan-18-2023-edition
SoCalJazzFan
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 1,021
Joined: Jul 29, 2009

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#76 » by SoCalJazzFan » Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:48 pm

Crunch 99 wrote:Kessler cracked the top five on the NBA.com Kia Rookie Ladder.

In addition, the NBA.com writer did a Defensive Rookie Ladder for kicks and Kessler topped the list. In a discussion about defense, the writer quoted NBA coaches and scouts saying most rookies are pretty clueless about playing good NBA level defense, and that learning to play good NBA defense usually takes multiple seasons. Kessler is already good enough to play effective defense in crunch time.

"Defense takes time for most 1st-year players. Utah's rookie big man has shown rare defensive instincts in his debut season."

Kia Rookie Ladder: 1. Paolo Banchero, 2. Bennedict Mathurin, 3. Jalen Williams, 4. Jaden Ivey, 5. Walker Kessler

Kia Defensive Rookie Ladder: 1. Walker Kessler, 2. Dyson Daniels, 3. Andrew Nembhard, 4. Bennedict Mathurin, 5. Paolo Banchero

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-rookie-ladder-jan-18-2023-edition

He is looking like a steal. Arguably, Markkanen has made his way into the top 3 of his draft class this year.
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 16,004
And1: 7,464
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#77 » by Inigo Montoya » Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:59 am

SoCalJazzFan wrote:^^ One of the things I was interested in is to try to estimate how Collins might do if acquired. If he can get back to form with his shooting, he could potentially be amazing. If nothing else, he would probably offer better defense and rebounding than Olynyk and thus could make a strong frontcourt with Markk and Kessler. In fact, we could have a situation not unlike the Cavs where their small and defensively challenged backcourt is balanced and well supported by their frontcourt.

Of course, the fit could end up being a disaster or Collins never recovers or is too oft injured. I lean towards hoping we acquire him at this point, though.


Another issue I have with trading for Collins is that there won't be enough opportunities and touches for everyone in the front court. A case could be made that Markkanen is still under-utilized and should get more touches, and Kessler should also get more, especially if he improves his offensive game. Olynyk works in this lineup because he's not a high usage guy and not taking a lot of shots. Replace him with Collins, and either Collins won't average more than he does now because he won't get more touches, or we stunt Kessler and don't maximize Markkanen. There aren't enough touches to go around in the front court imho, for everyone to flourish.

I think we need to find a replacement for the aging Conley and for Clarkson's shot creation, so the emphasis should be on guards and wings who can create their own shot, and Collins isn't that type of player. And even if he's a better defender than Olynyk, he's still not a good defender. I like him as a player but I still don't like the fit.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
SoCalJazzFan
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,318
And1: 1,021
Joined: Jul 29, 2009

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#78 » by SoCalJazzFan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:49 pm

Inigo Montoya wrote:
SoCalJazzFan wrote:^^ One of the things I was interested in is to try to estimate how Collins might do if acquired. If he can get back to form with his shooting, he could potentially be amazing. If nothing else, he would probably offer better defense and rebounding than Olynyk and thus could make a strong frontcourt with Markk and Kessler. In fact, we could have a situation not unlike the Cavs where their small and defensively challenged backcourt is balanced and well supported by their frontcourt.

Of course, the fit could end up being a disaster or Collins never recovers or is too oft injured. I lean towards hoping we acquire him at this point, though.


Another issue I have with trading for Collins is that there won't be enough opportunities and touches for everyone in the front court. A case could be made that Markkanen is still under-utilized and should get more touches, and Kessler should also get more, especially if he improves his offensive game. Olynyk works in this lineup because he's not a high usage guy and not taking a lot of shots. Replace him with Collins, and either Collins won't average more than he does now because he won't get more touches, or we stunt Kessler and don't maximize Markkanen. There aren't enough touches to go around in the front court imho, for everyone to flourish.

I think we need to find a replacement for the aging Conley and for Clarkson's shot creation, so the emphasis should be on guards and wings who can create their own shot, and Collins isn't that type of player. And even if he's a better defender than Olynyk, he's still not a good defender. I like him as a player but I still don't like the fit.


I hear what you're saying, but I 'm not worried about Kessler getting anything other than put backs and dunks and close shots when he is open at this point as he hasn't really shown too much as far as shooting from any kind of distance or a killer offensive post move. Let him develop that, if possible, over time, and in the meantime let him be the monster rim protector and rebounder that he is.

The league has increasingly gone to 4 or 5 out, requiring bigs to be versatile. The combos of Kessler, Markk and Olynyk (and even Vando) have been good this year and I think that it is because Markk plays more like a wing than a big. He and Collins could be very difficult to defend as they could score from three levels, take advantage of size discrepencies in the paint, yet also be faster or more athletic than bigger players trying to defend them. Having to spread the ball around to several offensive weapons on the court is a good problem to have, IMO, even if none of them is going to average 30ppg, but nearly any one of them could go off for 20+pts any given game.

I think that the Jazz are actually serious about keeping Clarkson. I'm guessing that Sexton becomes the 6th man scoring option on the bench.

Conley obviously will need to be replaced, but I don't see that happening in free agency or via trade, but more likely through the draft. Keeping him on as a mentor next season might be worth missing out on what little we would otherwise be getting by trading him.

I don't see acquiring Collins as being mutually exclusive of the eventual backcourt goals. The Jazz will have plenty of cap space without a max contract on the books and an increasing salary cap in the future. However, the fit of Collins could be a huge hit or a big miss, I admit. It's a risk I'm willing to take if the cost is only Beasely and Vando or Olynyk. He could move the needle and I don't see any other player that is gettable who could.
User avatar
Inigo Montoya
Forum Mod - Jazz
Forum Mod - Jazz
Posts: 16,004
And1: 7,464
Joined: May 31, 2012

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#79 » by Inigo Montoya » Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:21 pm

SoCalJazzFan wrote:The league has increasingly gone to 4 or 5 out, requiring bigs to be versatile. The combos of Kessler, Markk and Olynyk (and even Vando) have been good this year and I think that it is because Markk plays more like a wing than a big. He and Collins could be very difficult to defend as they could score from three levels, take advantage of size discrepencies in the paint, yet also be faster or more athletic than bigger players trying to defend them. Having to spread the ball around to several offensive weapons on the court is a good problem to have, IMO, even if none of them is going to average 30ppg, but nearly any one of them could go off for 20+pts any given game.


Collins isn't really a 1-1 player or an offensive creator though. He's going to be dependent on other players to create for him (not that he isn't skilled), which is why it would be more important go find good shot-creating guards or a good wing (hard to find though). He's not as versatile on that side of the ball as Markkanen, for example.

And regardless, the Jazz have one of the best offenses in the league. Bringing in Collins is redundant in that aspect because our offense is already good enough. Our problem is on defense and he's not going to help there, so while he's a good player, I'm not convinced he'll elevate the team in a significant way. And if we're giving away V8 in this trade (or any other trade), who is our best and most versatile defender, we may even regress (Olynyk and Beasley is more palatable, but I'd hate to part with Beasley). I think a guy like OG Anunoby or Siakam would be a much better fit. They have a much higher asking price though.
Draft Nate Wolters - FAILED
Keep Nate Wolters - FAILED
Image
KqWIN wrote:Why are we talking about Middleton, Harris, and Porter?

The real decision the Jazz FO is making is between Continuity, Cap Flexibility, and Cash Considerations.
zero24gravity
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,698
And1: 842
Joined: Jan 08, 2017
 

Re: The Official 2022-2023 Utah Jazz Season Discussion Thread 

Post#80 » by zero24gravity » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:19 pm

Conley plans to participate in the All Star weekend Skills Contest. I'm guessing there will other Jazz player connections to the other contests. Kessler as a Rising Star seems the most likely. Perhaps something that involves legends like Stock &/or Malone?

https://kslsports.com/497929/jazz-guard-mike-conley-invited-to-all-star-skills-challenge-plans-to-compete/

Another item to note ... the All Star teams are being picked by the captains right before the game, not days in advance. No idea why this change was made. The game is already void of any structure, and now there will not even be a small amount of team practice time. (But the NBA is still charging $50+ for a ticket to watch "practice", somehow.) Oh well ... we all know the actual game is a joke.

Return to Utah Jazz