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We are playing the Spurs again, this time around without our second and third leading scorers, Clarkson and Sexton.

https://www.rotowire.com/basketball/nba-lineups.php

Shows how awful the Spurs are that this should be an easy with for the Jazz without Clarkson/Sexton. I expect a big game from Olynyk.

****ing embarrassing to lose one of ********* NBA teams in your home arena.
Markkanen only 1 point in 4th quarter that's ****ing pathetic for allstar player.
Is this team seriously interested to get into play-in games or not.

How many times it needs to say if this current tanking mode continues next 2 years
the chances for that Lauri signs extension with Jazz gets quite thin / slim.

Lauri has watched enough tanking in Chicago
so if Jazz cannot impress Lauri on that Jazz are playoff team 2025-2026 season he will not stay in Utah.
Keep mind NBA's new TV contract should be done summer 2025 and that will mean those players ( including Lauri )
who are UFA's that year will get big moneys when cap space rises.

Lauri has done his part to impress Jazz and Danny Ainge.
Now it is Danny's turn to do his part to get Lauri staying in Utah after summer 2025 and tanking will not help that.

Jiipee84 wrote:****ing embarrassing to lose one of ********* NBA teams in your home arena.
Markkanen only 1 point in 4th quarter that's ****ing pathetic for allstar player.
Is this team seriously interested to get into play-in games or not.

How many times it needs to say if this current tanking mode continues next 2 years
the chances for that Lauri signs extension with Jazz gets quite thin / slim.

Lauri has watched enough tanking in Chicago
so if Jazz cannot impress Lauri on that Jazz are playoff team 2025-2026 season he will not stay in Utah.
Keep mind NBA's new TV contract should be done summer 2025 and that will mean those players ( including Lauri )
who are UFA's that year will get big moneys when cap space rises.

Lauri has done his part to impress Jazz and Danny Ainge.
Now it is Danny's turn to do his part to get Lauri staying in Utah after summer 2025 and tanking will not help that.

Kind of a ridiculous take, IMO. You're mixing the end of this season with the players they still have on the team with moves to be made over the summer and next season. A) They are mutually exclusive. B) tanking right now doesn't prevent any moves this summer or next season or two (they'll have a ton of cap space and draft picks to make moves) and losing most likely gets a better player in the draft in the process. Sounds like a win win to me.

SoCalJazzFan wrote:

Jiipee84 wrote:****ing embarrassing to lose one of ********* NBA teams in your home arena.
Markkanen only 1 point in 4th quarter that's ****ing pathetic for allstar player.
Is this team seriously interested to get into play-in games or not.

How many times it needs to say if this current tanking mode continues next 2 years
the chances for that Lauri signs extension with Jazz gets quite thin / slim.

Lauri has watched enough tanking in Chicago
so if Jazz cannot impress Lauri on that Jazz are playoff team 2025-2026 season he will not stay in Utah.
Keep mind NBA's new TV contract should be done summer 2025 and that will mean those players ( including Lauri )
who are UFA's that year will get big moneys when cap space rises.

Lauri has done his part to impress Jazz and Danny Ainge.
Now it is Danny's turn to do his part to get Lauri staying in Utah after summer 2025 and tanking will not help that.

Kind of a ridiculous take, IMO. You're mixing the end of this season with the players they still have on the team with moves to be made over the summer and next season. A) They are mutually exclusive. B) tanking right now doesn't prevent any moves this summer or next season or two (they'll have a ton of cap space and draft picks to make moves) and losing most likely gets a better player in the draft in the process. Sounds like a win win to me.

Ainge and Zanik have to watch all the players and all the talent available including all-stars and potential all-stars.
No options should be ruled out and it would be best to be ready to change the original plans as well.
And go win now mode if the opportunity arises and tanking clearly does not work.

Now that was fugly. I expected most Jazz games to look like this after the trade, but two G-league squads having a competition in throwing bricks and passes to fans is hard on the eyes. If Hardy keeps up with THT as starting "point guard" they won't sniff .500 again, which I guess would be a good thing.

We had a lineup of Dunn, Fontecchio, Toscano-Anderson, Juzang and Gay at some point. No other explanation needed for the outcome.

the closing lineup of dunn-tht-lauri-olynyk-kessler wasn't particularly beautiful either.

It was great to see THT hit hit shots at a good %, but he spoiled his overall performance with the 7 tovs. The 7 tovs were especially disappointing after he had 5 tovs Saturday against the same team. This game was his chance to clean up the tovs.

Ochai looked really good last night, until he got injured.

THT has next to zero passing and lobbing touch. I wonder if that is something he can develop. He is young and I'm willing to see how he develops the rest of this season and next.

Fontechio is a train wreck. If he was 21 I would be more patient with him. I wonder who the scout was that thought he would be so great in the NBA.

Anyone know why Damian Jones didn't play? This one is a head scratcher.

el_Diablo wrote:the closing lineup of dunn-tht-lauri-olynyk-kessler wasn't particularly beautiful either.

From what I saw Olynyk didn't have a clue in this game.

Clarkson out and the result is on the score board. He has matured his game as the season has progressed and a part of me thinks keeping him with a higher deal than you'd like to pay might be wise.

Remember, the dopes in Chicago didn't believe Markkanen was worth of 18 M per season! Sure Clarkson is older but I have a vibe perhaps he's yet to hit his peak.

Fontecchio 0/7. And the reason for him being in the rotation...

BigJimFinn wrote:Now that was fugly. I expected most Jazz games to look like this after the trade, but two G-league squads having a competition in throwing bricks and passes to fans is hard on the eyes. If Hardy keeps up with THT as starting "point guard" they won't sniff .500 again, which I guess would be a good thing.

I believe it's called evaluation. He's only 22 and never been a bona fide starter.

My concern with him is his fit - does 6-4 really need 234 lb?

FranchisePlayer wrote:

BigJimFinn wrote:Now that was fugly. I expected most Jazz games to look like this after the trade, but two G-league squads having a competition in throwing bricks and passes to fans is hard on the eyes. If Hardy keeps up with THT as starting "point guard" they won't sniff .500 again, which I guess would be a good thing.

I believe it's called evaluation. He's only 22 and never been a bona fide starter.

My concern with him is his fit - does 6-4 really need 234 lb?

Well, the evaluation thus far has shown that he can't dribble safely against pressure, create passing angles against denial D or make any passes to bigs on the move. I'd say those are pretty key skills for an NBA point guard, and it's a tricky position to pick up in later career if you haven't learned the fundamentals. You can improve decision making with coaching and experience, but if THT is to become a bona fide starter, it will be as a second-phase ballhandler, attacking rotations with those juggernaut drives. To do that effectively he also needs to become a real spot-up shooting threat from 3.
The weight I don't see as a problem; he has a uniquely wide and top-heavy frame, which allows him to play much bigger than 6-4, easily guarding SFs and overpowering guards. I don't know why he should aspire to playing PG and losing weight to improve lateral quickness, instead of being a PJ Tucker with added driving threat.

FranchisePlayer wrote:

el_Diablo wrote:the closing lineup of dunn-tht-lauri-olynyk-kessler wasn't particularly beautiful either.

From what I saw Olynyk didn't have a clue in this game.

Clarkson out and the result is on the score board. He has matured his game as the season has progressed and a part of me thinks keeping him with a higher deal than you'd like to pay might be wise.

Remember, the dopes in Chicago didn't believe Markkanen was worth of 18 M per season! Sure Clarkson is older but I have a vibe perhaps he's yet to hit his peak.

Fontecchio 0/7. And the reason for him being in the rotation...

In the 4th quarter the Jazz looked a bit like the Lakers before the trades - no spacing at all with dunn or tht and kessler off the ball and therefore no space to get anyone going. I’m sure conley or some other actual pg could have managed to find some looks for someone but tht and dunn are what they are so the end result was a lot of dribbling.

Even if fontecchio missed everything yesterday at least the spurs defended him at the perimeter.. but he did have an awful game and didn’t really deserve any extra minutes.

In the end the injury to Ochai was the last straw with Clarkson and Sexton already out. I’m sure jazz would have won had he been available for a full game. He has been really impressive considering he started the season by collecting DNP-CDs.

Obviously one can criticize Lauri for not being able to do much in the 4th but even lebron kept losing this season when grouped with non-shooters..

BigJimFinn wrote:

FranchisePlayer wrote:

BigJimFinn wrote:Now that was fugly. I expected most Jazz games to look like this after the trade, but two G-league squads having a competition in throwing bricks and passes to fans is hard on the eyes. If Hardy keeps up with THT as starting "point guard" they won't sniff .500 again, which I guess would be a good thing.

I believe it's called evaluation. He's only 22 and never been a bona fide starter.

My concern with him is his fit - does 6-4 really need 234 lb?

Well, the evaluation thus far has shown that he can't dribble safely against pressure, create passing angles against denial D or make any passes to bigs on the move. I'd say those are pretty key skills for an NBA point guard, and it's a tricky position to pick up in later career if you haven't learned the fundamentals. You can improve decision making with coaching and experience, but if THT is to become a bona fide starter, it will be as a second-phase ballhandler, attacking rotations with those juggernaut drives. To do that effectively he also needs to become a real spot-up shooting threat from 3.
The weight I don't see as a problem; he has a uniquely wide and top-heavy frame, which allows him to play much bigger than 6-4, easily guarding SFs and overpowering guards. I don't know why he should aspire to playing PG and losing weight to improve lateral quickness, instead of being a PJ Tucker with added driving threat.

Long determined conclusions based on 4 games, eh?! The leash is definitely longer than that.

Feels like I've gone through this type of discussion back in 2018-2021 in the Bulls forum. lol

el_Diablo wrote:

FranchisePlayer wrote:

el_Diablo wrote:the closing lineup of dunn-tht-lauri-olynyk-kessler wasn't particularly beautiful either.

From what I saw Olynyk didn't have a clue in this game.

Clarkson out and the result is on the score board. He has matured his game as the season has progressed and a part of me thinks keeping him with a higher deal than you'd like to pay might be wise.

Remember, the dopes in Chicago didn't believe Markkanen was worth of 18 M per season! Sure Clarkson is older but I have a vibe perhaps he's yet to hit his peak.

Fontecchio 0/7. And the reason for him being in the rotation...

In the 4th quarter the Jazz looked a bit like the Lakers before the trades - no spacing at all with dunn or tht and kessler off the ball and therefore no space to get anyone going. I’m sure conley or some other actual pg could have managed to find some looks for someone but tht and dunn are what they are so the end result was a lot of dribbling.

Even if fontecchio missed everything yesterday at least the spurs defended him at the perimeter.. but he did have an awful game and didn’t really deserve any extra minutes.

In the end the injury to Ochai was the last straw with Clarkson and Sexton already out. I’m sure jazz would have won had he been available for a full game. He has been really impressive considering he started the season by collecting DNP-CDs.

Obviously one can criticize Lauri for not being able to do much in the 4th but even lebron kept losing this season when grouped with non-shooters..

One can criticize anyone, for sure, in a time of loss. Call me biased but really hard to see how Markkanen's performance on this occasion could end up in the spotlight.

But yeah, the lack of floor general makes sometimes things look even uglier than what they are. The Jazz shouldn't be this incompetent of getting looks for players. Olynyk had 0 FGA inside the arc in 30 min., astonishing.

FranchisePlayer wrote:

BigJimFinn wrote:

FranchisePlayer wrote:
I believe it's called evaluation. He's only 22 and never been a bona fide starter.

My concern with him is his fit - does 6-4 really need 234 lb?

Well, the evaluation thus far has shown that he can't dribble safely against pressure, create passing angles against denial D or make any passes to bigs on the move. I'd say those are pretty key skills for an NBA point guard, and it's a tricky position to pick up in later career if you haven't learned the fundamentals. You can improve decision making with coaching and experience, but if THT is to become a bona fide starter, it will be as a second-phase ballhandler, attacking rotations with those juggernaut drives. To do that effectively he also needs to become a real spot-up shooting threat from 3.
The weight I don't see as a problem; he has a uniquely wide and top-heavy frame, which allows him to play much bigger than 6-4, easily guarding SFs and overpowering guards. I don't know why he should aspire to playing PG and losing weight to improve lateral quickness, instead of being a PJ Tucker with added driving threat.

Long determined conclusions based on 4 games, eh?! The leash is definitely longer than that.

Feels like I've gone through this type of discussion back in 2018-2021 in the Bulls forum. lol

THT has played 180 NBA games, 3700 minutes, over 4 seasons. The case of Lauri doesn't mean that every player is capable of making a huge leap in mid-career, and THT wasn't a high lottery pick; he was a great find at 46th. I agree though that his leash may well reach to the end of this season, because getting to play-in is not a priority, to state it mildly, and you can justify it by evaluation. I am just saying that it will lead to ugly games and more losses, and most likely will not reveal him to be a major ballhandling talent.

BigJimFinn wrote:

FranchisePlayer wrote:

BigJimFinn wrote:
Well, the evaluation thus far has shown that he can't dribble safely against pressure, create passing angles against denial D or make any passes to bigs on the move. I'd say those are pretty key skills for an NBA point guard, and it's a tricky position to pick up in later career if you haven't learned the fundamentals. You can improve decision making with coaching and experience, but if THT is to become a bona fide starter, it will be as a second-phase ballhandler, attacking rotations with those juggernaut drives. To do that effectively he also needs to become a real spot-up shooting threat from 3.
The weight I don't see as a problem; he has a uniquely wide and top-heavy frame, which allows him to play much bigger than 6-4, easily guarding SFs and overpowering guards. I don't know why he should aspire to playing PG and losing weight to improve lateral quickness, instead of being a PJ Tucker with added driving threat.

Long determined conclusions based on 4 games, eh?! The leash is definitely longer than that.

Feels like I've gone through this type of discussion back in 2018-2021 in the Bulls forum. lol

THT has played 180 NBA games, 3700 minutes, over 4 seasons. The case of Lauri doesn't mean that every player is capable of making a huge leap in mid-career, and THT wasn't a high lottery pick; he was a great find at 46th. I agree though that his leash may well reach to the end of this season, because getting to play-in is not a priority, to state it mildly, and you can justify it by evaluation. I am just saying that it will lead to ugly games and more losses, and most likely will not reveal him to be a major ballhandling talent.

Just a reminder: Your original argument was "If Hardy keeps up with THT as starting "point guard" they won't sniff .500 again, which I guess would be a good thing." to which I commented the evaluation part.

Talen has played 180 games of which he's started in only 28 games and for the Jazz only 4: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hortota01.html Each franchise tend to make their own conclusions.

That's an awfully small sample size, don't you think? I wouldn't draw too many conclusions out of that.

The Bulls figured, based on roughly 200 games, Markkanen isn't worth around $18 M a season so the bigger sample size obviously doesn't guarantee you anything.

But it's plain common sense and a necessity to see more.