How do you even team build in the current NBA?

[bkohler]

I’ve been going over possibilities all night and I keep coming to some pretty severe dead ends. I think it would be possible to create a play-in team out of the current Jazz crew, but I just don’t see a path towards true contention in the next half decade or so.

Which makes me wonder, for a small market team with nerfed lottery odds and in a market that is unattractive to free agents… how do you build a true contender? What examples are out there of someone doing it?

Is the only way keep playing the lottery game for ( years like Detroit? And even then I’m not sure they’re a true competitor or have a large path to become one.

Houston might be the best example.

It’s hard to see how we’re better or even on the same level in the foreseeable future as:
OKC
Houston
Wolves
Lakers
Mavs
Nuggets
Spurs

We might be able to compete with:
Grizzlies
Pelicans
Blazers
Kings
Warriors


We could probably bet on being better than the:
Suns
Clippers


So what do we do?
Gamble on some trades?
Go even deeper into the tank?
Try and figure out a moneyball strategy?

I’m curious what your opinion is on the right way forward!

[HadAnEffectHere]

The team has essentially no chance of being a title contender via any path.

[bkohler]

The team has essentially no chance of being a title contender via any path.

[SoCalJazzFan]

The NBA needs to ditch the current lottery format. It is not deterring teams from tanking, which was its intended purpose, and instead of making parity in the league is doing just the opposite.

I'm not sure that doing away completely with the lottery is a good idea, but maybe multiple lotteries for the non-playoff teams. E.g. 1-4 lottery, 5-9 and 10-14 (or 1-6 and 7-14). Teams can only move up or down in those ranges.

It is clear, though, that a team who was in the finals last year, a play in game team this year, and that has multiple all stars should NOT be able to get a generational talent with the first overall pick.

[Daddy 801]

You tank. It’s that simple. Small market teams who compete and do the right thing by putting out a good product year after year will not win and not be rewarded for their success. As a Jazz fan you should know this more than anyone else in the league.

So the only path to a championship team is to bottom out over and over again until the league realizes you mean business and they will stop rigging it for the large markets.

It sucks. It’s not just. It’s not fair. It’s not equitable.
But it’s the only path.

[76ciology]

This is a post I wrote for my Sixers regarding team building, which i find to be related to this post and what you guys are going thru

I’ve been thinking a lot about how our season might go next year. And what I’ve noticed is that most fans seem locked into one scenario: that Embiid won’t return to form. It’s fair to consider that, and I get why people think we should just tank. It’s a reasonable take.

But then I started reflecting on the teams currently in the playoffs and on Daryl Morey’s career. It struck me how our recent experiences have shaped our thinking, maybe too much. We’ve started defaulting to certain heuristics: Tanking is good. The Iguodala era is bad.

That got me thinking about the Iguodala era. I went back and looked at that roster: Jrue, Lou Will, Iggy, Thad, Elton, Hawes (or Dalembert?). That’s a well-balanced team. And in 2010, we had the No. 2 pick. What if we’d drafted DeMarcus Cousins or Paul George? A lineup of Jrue, Lou, Iggy, Elton, and Cousins could’ve been something. Maybe that era wasn’t as far off as we thought.

Look at the Celtics. They weren’t tanking, they were just treading water. But they kept making smart moves: adding Horford, Smart, Jaylen, then hitting on Tatum. They upgraded Brogdon into Jrue. Upgraded Smart into Porzingis. It was incremental and strategically targeted, not like building thru the draft where you may be given 4 wheels to build a boat.

So what’s my point? Maybe being stuck in the middle isn’t as bad as we think. The Pacers didn’t tank, and yet here they are, possibly heading to the ECF. Sometimes “mediocre” is just another stage on the road to contention. Specially in today’s NBA that is promoting more collective talent less big 3 and musical chairs of teams winning the championship. Yes, Pacers will likely lose the next round. But maybe they can do incremental improvements and land themselves their Jrue Holiday and Porzingis too.

Landing a generational talent like Wemby or LeBron is great. Being able to land KD, Harden and Westbrook is also great. But there are many paths to a title. Boston won it all with a “beta” superstar in Tatum. They might not even need a player as good as Jayson Tatum to win it for them last year. And maybe, just maybe, we could’ve made it past the ECF with Iguodala, if we’d had Morey running our 2010 draft.

[bkohler]

This is a post I wrote for my Sixers regarding team building, which i find to be related to this post and what you guys are going thru

I’ve been thinking a lot about how our season might go next year. And what I’ve noticed is that most fans seem locked into one scenario: that Embiid won’t return to form. It’s fair to consider that, and I get why people think we should just tank. It’s a reasonable take.

But then I started reflecting on the teams currently in the playoffs and on Daryl Morey’s career. It struck me how our recent experiences have shaped our thinking, maybe too much. We’ve started defaulting to certain heuristics: Tanking is good. The Iguodala era is bad.

That got me thinking about the Iguodala era. I went back and looked at that roster: Jrue, Lou Will, Iggy, Thad, Elton, Hawes (or Dalembert?). That’s a well-balanced team. And in 2010, we had the No. 2 pick. What if we’d drafted DeMarcus Cousins or Paul George? A lineup of Jrue, Lou, Iggy, Elton, and Cousins could’ve been something. Maybe that era wasn’t as far off as we thought.

Look at the Celtics. They weren’t tanking, they were just treading water. But they kept making smart moves: adding Horford, Smart, Jaylen, then hitting on Tatum. They upgraded Brogdon into Jrue. Upgraded Smart into Porzingis. It was incremental and strategically targeted, not like building thru the draft where you may be given 4 wheels to build a boat.

So what’s my point? Maybe being stuck in the middle isn’t as bad as we think. The Pacers didn’t tank, and yet here they are, possibly heading to the ECF. Sometimes “mediocre” is just another stage on the road to contention. Specially in today’s NBA that is promoting more collective talent less big 3 and musical chairs of teams winning the championship. Yes, Pacers will likely lose the next round. But maybe they can do incremental improvements and land themselves their Jrue Holiday and Porzingis too.

Landing a generational talent like Wemby or LeBron is great. Being able to land KD, Harden and Westbrook is also great. But there are many paths to a title. Boston won it all with a “beta” superstar in Tatum. They might not even need a player as good as Jayson Tatum to win it for them last year. And maybe, just maybe, we could’ve made it past the ECF with Iguodala, if we’d had Morey running our 2010 draft.

I appreciate the input but I also think it’s based on the false impression that the Jazz were on the treadmill. In the case of the Mitchell/Gobert teams Mitchell told them he was leaving and they should trade him, and they had already traded away their future draft capital. There wasn’t a good way to get new talent to replace him.

With the Lauri backed teams we were never as close to competing as people seem to think we were. When the Jazz traded Conley we were 2 games under 500 and out of the playin picture with one of the leagues hardest schedules remaining. When they traded Olynk the next year it was similar.

This never was a team just spamming first or second round playoff visits and hoping things break the right way. It’s been a team that is fighting for the 10th pick in the draft over and over.

Also, I might just add for all the people taking victory laps on this app because the Jazz didn’t get the pick becuase they tanked that the Mavs did the exact same thing two years ago (with Luka!) tanking their way out of the playoffs to get a lottery pick that became lively. The thunder performed an all time multi year tank and sent Al horford home for the year.

I don’t see another good path but being bad for the next 4-5 years and then trying to be the next rockets or pistons. Make opportunistic trades, sign a few players you think might help your core or you can sell off later and see if your youth pops.

Theres really no other option for the Jazz.

Edit: I think the same thing is true right now for Washington and the Hornets. The current system makes it incredibly hard for teams that have bottomed out to get back. The bucks are going to feel this acutely, same with the suns.

[dr0welf]

You need to pay money to the basketball Gods for the right to the top pick. And then you need to continue to contribute to the basketball Gods for the right for proper calls when and if you do make it to the Championship.

All Joking aside, tanking is more often a failed concept with few teams like the San Antonio Spurs pulling it off. I hate the tanking and have had a really hard time even having the desire to watch the games. I would rather build through development, trades, and doing the best in the draft that we can with whatever position we end at. The difference between a mediocre team and a championship team is luck. You have to be able to pull the right trade off at the right time. Draft the right player at the right time. Get the supporting players that compliment your system. With solid coaching that gets total team buy in.

We should have traded Mitchell and kept Gobert. Lauri, Gobert, Boggie, Conley, would have been a team to tinker with and try to get better around. It would not on it's own gotten us a championship but it would have given us a chance to get lucky and win.

But then again we have the curse of trading our only number one pick in franchise history

[Inigo Montoya]

You say 'F-U' to Adam Silver and tank again until you get the talent you need.

[AingesBurner]

You say 'F-U' to Adam Silver and tank again until you get the talent you need.

I’m down with this. Danny Ainge just needs to listen to Rage Against the Machine every day next season. “**** you, I won’t do what you tell me.”

[bkohler]

Lauri, Gobert, Boggie, Conley, would have been a team to tinker with and try to get better around. It would not on it's own gotten us a championship but it would have given us a chance to get lucky and win.

Gobert is currently on a much better team than that, and they've struggled to get out of the second round throughout his tenure there. We also didn't have any picks at that point to use to improve. I think we forget the circumstances too easily, we owed our picks to OKC, which prevented us from trading future picks because of protections, it's assumed that Conley would resign, but there was no guarantee and Bogey aged fast, more importantly a Conley/Bogey/Lauri/Gobert lineup would have been cooked defensively as they had zero perimeter defenders. Dennis Lindsey really put us in a no-win situation.

[Daddy 801]

You say 'F-U' to Adam Silver and tank again until you get the talent you need.

My man.

[SoCalJazzFan]

You say 'F-U' to Adam Silver and tank again until you get the talent you need.

This is the way. Next year there appear to be 3-4 franchise guys.

If I were the Jazz, I would call the Bucks and offer Sexton, Collins and Clarkson for Dame, and 2031 pick or 2031 and 2032 pick swaps. The Bucks should want to keep Giannis, and with Tatum going down they have a chance of being a contender in the East next season, and still have the option to trade Giannis a year later if it doesn't work out (with a ton of expiring salary). We don't want Giannis on the Spurs. Keep Lauri until a sweetheart deal comes around, or perhaps he becomes part of the next good iteration of the Jazz. I would play the young guys tons of minutes and be a bottom 3 team again and take my chances and hope that the OKC path works out for us too.

[dr0welf]

Lauri, Gobert, Boggie, Conley, would have been a team to tinker with and try to get better around. It would not on it's own gotten us a championship but it would have given us a chance to get lucky and win.

Gobert is currently on a much better team than that, and they've struggled to get out of the second round throughout his tenure there. We also didn't have any picks at that point to use to improve. I think we forget the circumstances too easily, we owed our picks to OKC, which prevented us from trading future picks because of protections, it's assumed that Conley would resign, but there was no guarantee and Bogey aged fast, more importantly a Conley/Bogey/Lauri/Gobert lineup would have been cooked defensively as they had zero perimeter defenders. Dennis Lindsey really put us in a no-win situation.

We had some picks from the Mitchell trade that would have helped for trading purposes. Either way I haven't been a fan of tanking, and I am still not. Actually probably even less of one.

[Daddy 801]

You say 'F-U' to Adam Silver and tank again until you get the talent you need.

This is the way. Next year there appear to be 3-4 franchise guys.

If I were the Jazz, I would call the Bucks and offer Sexton, Collins and Clarkson for Dame, and 2031 pick or 2031 and 2032 pick swaps. The Bucks should want to keep Giannis, and with Tatum going down they have a chance of being a contender in the East next season, and still have the option to trade Giannis a year later if it doesn't work out (with a ton of expiring salary). We don't want Giannis on the Spurs. Keep Lauri until a sweetheart deal comes around, or perhaps he becomes part of the next good iteration of the Jazz. I would play the young guys tons of minutes and be a bottom 3 team again and take my chances and hope that the OKC path works out for us too.

I’m all for the picks to take on Dames contract.

I’d also be inclined to call the Spurs and Philly and see if Lauri and the number 5 pick can move us up in the draft. I assume that was semi the plan for signing Lauri all along. An insurance policy for trading up if needed. Think Philly would be more inclined. This all assumes that the Jazz think Ace or Harper are worth it. I haven’t watched any video of these guys yet so I have no clue. I mean Dallas also could/looks be desperate to field a win now team. Maybe Lauri, the number 5 pick, and a future pick could net us Flagg. Highly doubtful with how much hype is around Flagg though. But Dallas walking away with Lauri, the #5 pick, and a future unprotected first when they were projected with a late lotto maybe is enough. I mean….their GM is known for making weird trades. I suspect he is on the phone with the Bucks looking to trade Flagg for Giannis though. That’s about the only player I think gets Dallas to trade Flagg.

In general go full youth and use any capspace to keep taking bad contracts for picks. No one can bitch about us tanking if we truly only have young players. I like Lauri but we should move him. Otherwise he is just going to end up hating it here because we aren’t anywhere close to competing for 3-4 years.

[AingesBurner]

I have determined how small market rebuild and here is my analogy:

Small market teams are like married men that have to sit in the hotel cuck chair and watch their wife(your best player) get plowed (traded for a pittance) by the guy (large market team) from the hotel bar. So the more your wife gets plowed, the more likely you eventually graduate from the cuck chair to the bed (top 3 pick).

So, we would have had better pick position if we cucked ourselves and sent Donovan to the Knicks for a pittance or Lauri to GSW for a pittance.

[Inigo Montoya]

I have determined how small market rebuild and here is my analogy:

Small market teams are like married men that have to sit in the hotel cuck chair and watch their wife(your best player) get plowed (traded for a pittance) by the guy (large market team) from the hotel bar. So the more your wife gets plowed, the more likely you eventually graduate from the cuck chair to the bed (top 3 pick).

So, we would have had better pick position if we cucked ourselves and sent Donovan to the Knicks for a pittance or Lauri to GSW for a pittance.

You know I love you AingesBurner, but I could have done without that analogy...

[AingesBurner]

I have determined how small market rebuild and here is my analogy:

Small market teams are like married men that have to sit in the hotel cuck chair and watch their wife(your best player) get plowed (traded for a pittance) by the guy (large market team) from the hotel bar. So the more your wife gets plowed, the more likely you eventually graduate from the cuck chair to the bed (top 3 pick).

So, we would have had better pick position if we cucked ourselves and sent Donovan to the Knicks for a pittance or Lauri to GSW for a pittance.

You know I love you AingesBurner, but I could have done without that analogy...

It felt creatively necessary don’t ban me

[Godaddycurse]

You tread water until an opportunistic trade comes up (kawhi for toronto, hali/siakam for indiana). Maybe jf the franchise is about to fold/relocate nba will pity you with another top pick in the draft, otherwise they will favor the big market teams that draws more money/ratings.

[76ciology]

You tread water until an opportunistic trade comes up (kawhi for toronto, hali/siakam for indiana). Maybe jf the franchise is about to fold/relocate nba will pity you with another top pick in the draft, otherwise they will favor the big market teams that draws more money/ratings.

If you can’t land a high pick, then trade for a player that gives you the value of a high pick. And I dont even think you need one. Look at Indiana, they traded for Haliburton, who isn’t even a top-tier star, and now they’re heading to the ECF. That’s farther than the Sixers ever got despite years of tanking.

That’s what I like about Boston’s blueprint. They built around the idea of winning with a “weak alpha.” They had Isaiah Thomas leading the way in an earlier version, and when that run ended, they kept stockpiling smart, winning role players who could thrive in a system even without a dominant star. By the time they landed Tatum, they already had the infrastructure. Honestly, they were so solid last year, I think they could’ve won without a player like Tatum.

So if you’re the Jazz, ask yourself, which of these guys couldn’t play in the Celtics’ system? Once you identify them trade them.

Stop trying to land a top pick, instead try to build a team that can win without a top pick.