R.Brewer is NOT a good defender

[troy]

R.Brewer is NOT a good defender

This was already my opinion after half of the games were played this season. But after watching the nba finals it's more true than ever.

Boston did a great job against Kobe Bryant , one of the best SGs of all time.
Who defended on him :
Ray Allen
James Posey
Paul Pierce

The latter two were the most effective against Kobe even though Allen did a good job too.
Posey and Pierce are both small forwards , they are both much stronger than him ,they are also taller.
Bryant is way more quick , still , this ability was useless against there defense.
Strangely Kobe Bryant had similar problem against a guy like Raja Bell who was able to overpower him.
Same with Ron Artest.
Are those defenders quick ? Hell no , but they are strong and can keep their position against any shooting guards !

THAT'S GOOD DEFENSE .

Brewer is everything but that. There is not one SG he can overpower. Sure he is quick but name one elite defender in the league today whose main strenght is quickness.
Worst than anything , Brewer is a huge gambler. he doesn't play fundamental defense unlike Pierce and Posey.

Jazz fans think Brewer has huge defensive potential but that's so far from the truth it's not even funny. With his body , Brewer can't stop any elite SGs who are all much stronger than him.

[JDubJazz]

If the officials had let Brewer defend Kobe the same way the Celtics did, you would be singing a different tune. The Tim Donaghy scandal was the best thing that could've happened to the Celtics. Kobe (andT-Mac and Iverson, etc) look a lot more human when you are allowed to defend without a whistle every time you breathe on the guy.

Brewer is not a great defender, yet. But he has gotten better and will continue to do so as long as he makes the effort. Offense is about 80% talent and skill. Defense is the exact opposite. There's no reason Brewer can't become an elite defender if he wants it bad enough.

[The Sheik]

Bruce Bowen.

Honestly I think your rant is pointless.

Quickness is not there asset, its moving their feet. Brewer is not that quick laterally. You are also comparing him to 6-10 yr veterans, and All-Stars.

Brewer basically played his rookie season last yr and your gonna bitch about how he isnt an elite defender already.

[hoops4life]

It was only his second year. Give him time. His defense is better than most others in the year he came out. He didn't get any respect as pointed out earlier, he got called for a ton that the Celtics got away with.

[SlickWilly8]

You do realize Brewer has only been in the league for two season's and his rookie year he barley played, and your trying to compare him to vet's that have been in the league for ten plus year's. Come on man, he played very well imho, considering last season was the first for him to recieve any sort of consistent playing time, give him a few years and I bet you feal differently.

[troy]

Yeah i'm comparing him to veterans but only because i'm comparing there style of play.
Posey,Pierce,Artest,Battier,etc... are strong wing players , something they have been since their nba debut. Something Brewer is certainly not.

Bowen is a good example. Viewed as an elite wing defender , he is still much stronger than Brewer upper body wise. You can't overpower him to the rim unless you're named Carmelo Anthony or Bonzi Wells for instance. Against players like Tmac and Bryant he has no problem of strenght.
That is not the case of Brewer. You could see that Bryant and Tmac could do anything they wanted against him and this has nothing to do with the officiating.

Regarding his experience , i will just repeat that defense is more about HEART than experience.
And Rajon Rondo who came out of the same draft is viewed as an elite PG defender and has done a tremendous job in the playoffs.

I just can't believe why Jazz fanz view him as a potential great defender when he has never had a breakout performance defensively. Nobody here can tell a great game by Brewer defensively and he has already played more than a hundred games. Brewer is a smart player , but good defender he is not.
Just because he is not a great offensive player , fans think he plays 24-30 minutes per game because he is a good defender. That's so not true. He is not a good offensive player (but he may become one) , but he is even worse defensively.
A lot of people think he is better than Korver and that's a huge misconception.
Brewer is mediocre defensively and that's the reason why Sloan used CJ Miles in the last two games of the season : Brewer was getting killed by Bryant and then Radmanovic (!!).

[hoops4life]

Brewer has the heart. It is about heart but you have to have some experience and respect as well.

His strength, especially upper body, will come with more time. He isn't even near his prime. His body is still maturing as a person. It will be a lot better.

[bsutefan]

Ronnie is a terrific defender. And the key to recognizing the defensive difference between Boston and Utah is looking at how they defended him. Paul Pierce, Ray Allen and crew did not defend Kobe one on one. They had help literally running at Kobe before he even put the ball on the floor. And don't forget about the Celtics athleticism and effort on defending the basket. When Kobe did go to the hoop, he ran straight into Garnett and his pals.

Boston did a terrific job defensively and cut down on the laker penetration. Remember what happened every time Kobe got isolated, the jazz waited for him to attack before sending help, and that was too late. Kobe would drive down the lane as Memo and Boozer gave him they OLE' and he would score inside.

Have you already forgotten what a terrific job we did against Tracy McGrady in the first round? He looked foolish against Ronnie and AK. He shot a terrible percentage. Help defense was always ready in case of a drive. Against the Lakers, it looked like everyone away from the ball was intimidated and didn't want to challenge kobe with help defense. Whether that was due to foul trouble, or a poor defensive strategy, it certainly wasn't Ronnie's fault.

Here's another example that I think is very helpful. Remember who our "defensive stopper" was last year? Derek Fisher. He looked terrible in our scheme. How many times did opposing players go for 50 on him last year? This year he looked much better defensively because he didn't have the responsibility to play 1 on 1 defense. Look at how he defended DWill (effectively I might add). He overplayed his strengths and forced him into his second or third options. Each time Deron would go for his second option, there would be help. I never saw Fisher defend straight up on Deron, he always overplayed to force Deron to help.

Ronnie's a terrific defender. Listen to every NBA analyst and they'll say the same. I put more blame for our defensive deficiencies on our poor interior defense who couldn't protect the rim if they had to. Second I put blame on our defensive philosophy. There's a reason teams that foul the most rank among the worst defensively. When you've got foul trouble, you have to back off. Sloan loves players to foul, which takes away from our aggressiveness. Often times its the help defense like boozer and harpring that can't be aggressive on help defense.

[The Sheik]

^^^
You keep shooting yourself in the foot with your "supposed basketball knowledge".

Bowen is stronger then Brewer? Since when? Bowen is maybe 200 pd and has no muscle definition that I have ever seen. Bowen gets by with his foot speed and ability to always be in your face or bug you. Strength is not his asset. "You cant overpower Bowen to the rim"...really? What did Deron Williams, Nash, Kobe Bryant, Dirk, T-mac and many others do to him.

There is no such thing as a lock down defender. The truth is if a player is that good offensively then he will get his pts, its up to you as the defender to take as much energy out of him and make him work twice as hard to get them.

With the players you have mentioned. When was their "strength" shown as an example of good defense in a series that wasnt called the way the finals where? Please bring me tons of reference because I am quite curious. Artest is a physical defender, I will give you that, but his greatest asset is his frame and lateral quickness in correlation to his frame. Thats why he can get physical with guys like Boozer and push them around. Shane Battiers greatest asset is his IQ. He moves his feet well and knows where to be and how to read the defenses. Posey is not strong, Battier is not strong, Bowen is not strong(in the greek mythological sense that you describe them). Pierce and Posey just got to play in a series that wasnt called ticky tack.

Now the biggest reason Boston got to Kobe...Kobe actually had to guard someone...ding ding ding. He always had hot starts...then faded away.

For you to say Brewer isnt strong is absolutely effin hilarious. So why is AK a better defender then Brewer? Is he quicker? stronger? or is it his arms?

Then you contradict your whole strong is better thing by using Korver and CJ as examples...hahaha genius.

I dont think Brewer is a great defender, perhaps not even good. At this stage in his career he is average. But based on the argument you are giving I dont think you will find a lot of people that agree with you.

Brewer probably has one of the strongest bodies on the team...I really honestly cant believe you are saying he isnt strong. He isnt allowed to use his strength on the court..hence Kobe shoots 30 FTs.

[hoops4life]

Brewer even got a vote for the all defensive team in his first season of getting real playing time.

[The Sheik]

very good analysis bsutefan, I agree completely. Bostons D philosophy, scheme and team D was much much better then ours.

I think people tend to forget its a teams defense, not an individuals that matters most.

[JStockLivesOn]

I wish people could just be reasonable about this. For a lot of folks on here, he's either a Stopper or the worst defender in NBA history. The truth, predictably, is somewhere in-between.

[troy]

Ahahahah , i fou

nd the number of answers hilarious.
It's interesting that someone compare our actual situation with last year's (Derek Fisher) when Tmac had a slighty better series this year and the Rockets were just as good offensively as last year despite Yao's absence !

Another interesting thing is that someone is capable of saying things like :
Ronnie's a terrific defender. Listen to every NBA analyst and they'll say the same.
When the Jazz coach himself that he didn't have any good defenders on the wing after a game in New jersey .

"Brewer is strong". That's the best one. Really if you're capable of saying something like that , i really question the number of games you've seen this year. To say that Brewer has a lot of strength this year is hilarious especially when you know the number of and 1 he gave up this year.
Even better another poster tells me after that that Posey and Battier are not "strong" at their position. What league are you watching seriously ? That's just stupid.

All in all , the number of excuses some you are capable of creating for Brewer is impressive :
- The way the ref called the game
- The bad supporting cast defensively for Brewer
- The lack of experience
- ...

One thing pissed me off particularly though in the previous posts.

There is no such thing as a lock down defender. The truth is if a player is that good offensively then he will get his pts, its up to you as the defender to take as much energy out of him and make him work twice as hard to get them.

Ronnie Brewer had this kind of quote words for words.
And that's why i don't trust him as a defender. Do you think this is the kind of mindset Boston had in the finals regarding Kobe Bryant ?
Do you think this is the way Deron approaches the game ? "I will just try and we'll see what happen".
When you attempt something you want to succeed PERIOD. you're not doing it to tell yourself "at least i tried".

As a player you can't have this kind of mentality. What you say is right but the players can't think like that. unfortunately that's Brewer's mindset , so everytimes he got burned by Tmac he was thinking "i tried my best at least , and the help didn't even come , and it's kobe etc etc..."
Do not look for excuses and say you can't lock down anybody. JUST DO YOUR JOB !

When Deron and Ronnie Price defends somebody you can see the intensity. That's just not there with Brewer.

[GP]

The big difference that you're missing between the celtics and the Jazz is the fact that if Kobe made it around his primary defender, he would have to deal with KG, who is an excellent defender. Perkins is also a good defender as well. Stockton admitted that defending was so much easier when he knew that Eaton was back there to cover him. When a perimeter defender knows that he has a center who can cover him, that defender can be more aggressive. With brewer, he knows that he is the first and last line of defense against Kobe and so he has to play perfect to compete. If the Jazz had KG or a defensive minded center, it deters players from driving to the hoop and allows our perimeter defender to play more aggressive.

[troy]

I know that defense is easier when you have a good defensive big behind you (that's why i keep repeating that Utah needs to get one) still the lack of good defensive big behind Brewer doesn't prove that RB is a good defender.

But i will have some numbers that may interest you.

http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07UTA5C.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/07UTA6C.HTM

During the playoffs , Brewer played 52% of the SG minutes for Utah. Korver played 42% of those minutes.

Brewer's opponent production per 48 minutes :
32.2pts , 49.1 efg%, 8.9 assist , 3.2 to . PER : 27.8 !!!

Korver's opponent :
25tpts , 43.4 efg% , 3.1ast , 3.1 to . PER : 15.7

Korver opponent's statistics during the playoffs is the proof that you can hold your opponent to decent production even with Okur and Boozer behind you.
So your argument is not good anymore. Brewer is just a mediocre defender.

I wonder what people will say after this comparison who tells it all.

[Racer X]

Have you ever heard of team defense? Boston plays it. The Jazz do not.

Do you really think that 1 person can guard Kobe Bryant? Every time Kobe drove on the Jazz he had a clear path to the bucket. With Boston he was met with 4 or 5 defenders. Being Kobe he still shot the ball and that was that. Boozer, Memo, and Andrei need to help Brewer, because Brewer actually forced Kobe to take some tough shots, but 1 on 1 Kobe can make tough shots.

[The Sheik]

Its convenient to take words out of post and not the entire comments the poster makes.

You say that Posey and Battiers physicality is their greatest asset and Brewers worst. Just physically speaking they are:

6'7" 223
6'8" 220
6'8" 217

tell me who is who.

Brewer, Battier and Posey all have the same build. So what is this supposed strength you are talking about. I really want you to explain that to me. Because all you say is "haha this mere peasant Brewer can not match the strength of Battier"...so what is it about these other players strength that Brewer doesnt have. You have yet to give any of us specific examples.

Then you call very legitimate reasons for the lack of his success against Kobe as excuses..are ****ing kidding me?

When on ESPN, NBA TV, PTI, ATH, Mike and Mike etc. did you hear someone talk about one individuals defensive effort? Its all about the team defense. Marcus Camby is one of the best shot blockers and paint controllers in the league, does Denver have a top 10 D in the league?

You criticize my no lock down defender quote saying it pissed you off. Did Boston lock Kobe down? No! They made him work harder on offense and made him work on defense. He still averaged 25 ppg, but he had to work harder to get those 25 pts. Take more shots(shot a poorer FG%).

Lastly he is a 23 yr old that played his first full season and you say he will never be a good defender and you bitch and moan and compare him to All Stars. Veterans and all defensive team players.

Then you have the nerve to bring up Deron as an example of defensive intensity...I love Deron, but he coasts on D way to much. Who has he locked down this season? I think if you are going to criticize Brewer like this, then there is no excuse for Deron.

Also wanted to point out that Kobe averaged more turnovers against Utah then Boston, yet took 47 more FTs. His shooting percentage went down 9%, now how could that be...because he was forced to take more jumpers because of the rotation and paint being clogged. You are giving Posey and Pierce more credit then they deserve and virtually no credit to the help D. For a guy questioning how much bball we watched, its funny that you claim to have watched the Utah and Boston series and havent realized the way they were called was different.

Finally I have never in my entire life playing or watching basketball ever heard of perimeter strength being the key asset to a lock down defender. You introducing strength as the key element means that they used their bodies and hands to stop Kobe...which clearly in todays NBA is called a foul most of the time. You however neglect the excellent team D, the good lateral speed shown from the primary defenders and the recovery speed after Kobe makes his first step. If you ever played basketball you are told to slide you feet and not to reach. You use you strength as a post defender, not so much on the perimeter.

I can see now why E23 doesnt waste his time with you...I guess you are like the Jazz defensive philosophy, your just trying to defend by yourself.

[The Sheik]

hehe...

your gonna use Hollingers stats as your primary source on a Jazz board...good luck with that

The funny thing is nobody thinks Ronnie Brewer is great, perhaps not even good...he was average this season. But at 23, he has a lot of room to grow. I just think your bashing him for no reason..its making you look foolish. Especially the argument you are making. If you just started with the Per stats and never brought up that whole strength BS you might have had a better shot of convincing people.

[BiggMann]

The more Troy talks... the less i respect his opinions.

I know he just started this thread to get a heated discussion going, but why target a kid in his first postseason? Ron did a wonderful job this season, played good opportunistic defense all year long and had the steals to show for it. He was also wonderful in his role in our offense, his jumper was pretty consistent all season (until the LA series anyway), and no one can question his uncanny ability to finish around the rim.

To give Ronnie a hard time for giving up a 27.5 PER of all things is just flat out flabbergasting to me... Do you realized he was locked on TMac and Kobe the ENITRE time he was on the floor?

Teams have just figured us out defensively, drive and kick (for a wide open 3, because his defender is in no mans land) or drive and dunk or if those fail drive and get to the foul line. That happens a majority of our defensive possesions.

[troy]

I don't know how you can refute the stats i posted in my last post.
There is no way you can't admit that the difference between his opponent's stats and korver's opponents stats is way to big to be a coincidence.
If saying the name Hollinger and PER is your defense , that just shows how pathetic you can be lol because the difference can be seen outside the PER.

Anyway a few gems in your last post :

Brewer, Battier and Posey all have the same build.
[...]
Then you have the nerve to bring up Deron as an example of defensive intensity...I love Deron, but he coasts on D way to much. Who has he locked down this season? I think if you are going to criticize Brewer like this, then there is no excuse for Deron.

I won't even bother answering to that. Obviously you weren't thinking when you said that .

Regarding the rest.

When on ESPN, NBA TV, PTI, ATH, Mike and Mike etc. did you hear someone talk about one individuals defensive effort?

Did you not watch the NBA finals ? Did you not hear Van Gundy kissing Posey's ass in game 5 SEVERAL TIMES ? Did you not hear praises about Pierce's defense along the series ?
I repeat , did you not watch the nba finals ?

I'm not sure you are in the same dimension as me...

Finally I have never in my entire life playing or watching basketball ever heard of perimeter strength being the key asset to a lock down defender.

Ok , isn't Artest's physical advantage flagrant to you ?
Doesn't the fact that Battier , Posey and Pierce are all SFs and are three of the best defensive wings at the moment means anything to you ? They are small forwards , by definition stronger but not as quick as guards. They still cover Kobe or other top SG's better than most despite their relative lack of speed.
Doesn't the fact that Billups is actually the best defensive PG means anything to you ? That Kidd was before him the best defensive points guard the past 5 years ? You do not see the PHYSICAL advantage they have over the other player ?

You can't be a good defender if the offensive player can push you around like he wants or if he is much taller than you.

Furthermore i didn't limit Brewer's defensive shortcomings to his lack of upper body strenght.
I also said that he lacks heart in comparison with most defensive specialist (and don't bring age again : Prince was a good defender as a rookie , Rondo too , Tony Allen , etc etc...) and he is a gambler .

To top it off , Sloan said himself that he was still waiting for a really promising defender to step forward on the actual roster at the 2/3 position and i showed you that Korver was doing a WAY better job than him in the playoffs against the same competition (and the same "defensive supporting cast")

All you can answer is :
He is young , the supporting cast is the real problem , the refs do not help him etc...
Problem is we can say that about any player. With this logic i can also tell you that CJ Miles can be a very good defender and if you don't agree with me i will bring his age , his lack of playing time , the fact that Utah's defenders are rubbish etc...
I could also do the same with Morris Almond. etc etc...

So why do YOU all think that Brewer has so much defensive potential in concrete terms not some bull that can be said about any young players... ?