AK at the 4

[ColdBlue]

Ok, so we were talking about this in the Wallace rumor thread, but I think this deserves a thread of it's own.

What I'm saying is that AK does not have the physical strength to defend the low post. I think there are at least 20 PF in this league that could easily overpower him and gain low post position.

Some of you claim that AK could still defend from this position, but that is yet to be seen, and would require AK to be able to bang, and I have NEVER seen AK bang.

Some of you also point to the 03-04 season when AK played the 4. (I was unable to see many games that year... didn't get NBALP until '05.)

So I guess what I would like to know, is what AK did in 03-04 that made him effective? Was he stronger then? Was it team defense? Would it work in 08-09?

[HolyToledo]

Our problem is we dont have an innovative head coach. AK-47 can play the PF against many but against the ones he struggles you play him less at that position. You also dont need to play PF on the PF!!!!!

When Jazz play Lakers u can start him on Gasol bc hes soft. Against Spurs, You dont have to put AK-47 on Duncan. You can put him on Olberto. Against Celtics, you can try AK-47 on Garnett or put him on Perkins. Fast active players like AK-47 bother slower post up players.

The whole key to this thing is not what position he is playing but just get him closer to the basket to make his defense and shot blocking more of a factor.

An example: Assume Boozer, Memo and AK-47 are the front court versus the Spurs...Why have AK-47 guard Bowen standing at the 3 point line. Boozer can guard him there!!! Put AK-47 on Olberto which puts AK-47 near the basket so he can help on Duncan post ups as well as Parker etc on their pentraton. Our coach is unable to look outside the box. He's too old school and believes guard your guy instead of looking at a players skills and making adjustments.

[carrottop12]

Ok, so we were talking about this in the Wallace rumor thread, but I think this deserves a thread of it's own.

What I'm saying is that AK does not have the physical strength to defend the low post. I think there are at least 20 PF in this league that could easily overpower him and gain low post position.

Some of you claim that AK could still defend from this position, but that is yet to be seen, and would require AK to be able to bang, and I have NEVER seen AK bang.

Some of you also point to the 03-04 season when AK played the 4. (I was unable to see many games that year... didn't get NBALP until '05.)

So I guess what I would like to know, is what AK did in 03-04 that made him effective? Was he stronger then? Was it team defense? Would it work in 08-09?

AK was a smarter defender then most people he was guarding were offensively.

On the bangers, he would front them, and deny the ball getting into the low post because of his ridiculous length and good jumping ability. On the thinner players he play standard stay between your man and the hoop defense, and his shot blocking ability kept them from getting easy looks at the basket. It was not uncommon to see AK block 2-3 shots on one trip down the floor from a player continuing to try to shoot through him.

Don't forget he's also a very good flopper, and his thin body looks like he gets fouled a lot down low. And he knew how to sell it.

If you were bigger then he was, he used his speed and agility to beat you to a position, and if you got the ball past him he would block you from behind. If you were thinner then he was he would keep you posted up until you forced a shot that he could challenge effectively.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Z4D1waFiEQ

I don't know if you've seen this video, but it's a very good depiction of what he used to do.

On offense, if a big guy guarded him, he stepped out and would shoot a J, or would take them off the dribble. He you were a small guy he would post up and take it to the rim, shoot over you or get a trip to the foul line. He was great at creating mismatches.

And you see he's almost always near the hoop on defense, and he wreaked havoc down low. It was amazing.

[carrottop12]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... der_by=pts

Go this link, click the links under the date column and just look at AK's stats. It wasn't unusual to see a 20/10/5/3 game from him. He was sick.

And more importantly you just didn't see big guys tearing up the Jazz in the paint.

[erudite23]

Uh, the Jazz were a slightly below average defensive team in 03-04. This year, they were just outside the top 10. We were a better team defenisvely this year than that season.

AK brings some pros and some cons. Everyone acknowledges that he would bring some sweet things to the table at the 4--what with his shot blocking and dirsuptive abilities--but you would have to be out of your ever loving mind to think that he won't get bullied by some of the bigger, stronger power players in this league. Its just how it is.

Now, maybe, MAYBE, what he brings to the table will outweigh what he takes off of it. That is what we should be debating, not whether or not he will get pushed around.

[nghedman]

Now if we could get that kind of defense from AK underneith the Jazz would be awesome!! Our problem in 03-04 was our perimeter defense!! What we really need now is not an interior defender..... we have AK, we need a coach that will rotate AK three-way in the PF/C postitions. We also need a perimeter defender so Sloan would feel more comfortable rotating AK underneith.

How good is Kosta Koufas at defense on the perimeter. That could be a better pick than most people are giving the Jazz credit for.

[schneiderjazz]

Uh, the Jazz were a slightly below average defensive team in 03-04. This year, they were just outside the top 10. We were a better team defenisvely this year than that season.

AK brings some pros and some cons. Everyone acknowledges that he would bring some sweet things to the table at the 4--what with his shot blocking and dirsuptive abilities--but you would have to be out of your ever loving mind to think that he won't get bullied by some of the bigger, stronger power players in this league. Its just how it is.

Now, maybe, MAYBE, what he brings to the table will outweigh what he takes off of it. That is what we should be debating, not whether or not he will get pushed around.

Exactly.

What I fail to understand is one thing: everyone keeps saying AK will get bullied around (we all know he will), but how is that worse than what Boozer's been doing? Almost every no name PF in the legue goes for 20+ on 70% shooting when Boozer is guarding him. AK at least will still try to block the shots from the opposing PF, even if he gets bullied, and will be able to help when guys get beaten on the perimeter. People can argue whether losing Boozer will make the Jazz suffer on offense, but, honestly, how can lose Boozer make the Jazz worse defensively? Sap will still be here too. It's not like AK is the only solution at PF if we lose or trade Boozer. AK and Sap sharing PF duties would be quite interesting IMO.

[stevebozell]

AK's length and athleticism makes up for his lkack of strength. Hes SO much better defending down low than Boozer is it isnt even funny.

[PimpHandStrong]

Almost every no name PF in the legue goes for 20+ on 70% shooting when Boozer is guarding him.

I would love for you (or anyone else) to back up this statement. Obviously, defense is Boozer's weakness, but it's not half as bad as people make it out to be.

[JStockLivesOn]

Uh, the Jazz were a slightly below average defensive team in 03-04. This year, they were just outside the top 10. We were a better team defenisvely this year than that season.

AK brings some pros and some cons. Everyone acknowledges that he would bring some sweet things to the table at the 4--what with his shot blocking and dirsuptive abilities--but you would have to be out of your ever loving mind to think that he won't get bullied by some of the bigger, stronger power players in this league. Its just how it is.

Now, maybe, MAYBE, what he brings to the table will outweigh what he takes off of it. That is what we should be debating, not whether or not he will get pushed around.

Exactly.

What I fail to understand is one thing: everyone keeps saying AK will get bullied around (we all know he will), but how is that worse than what Boozer's been doing? Almost every no name PF in the legue goes for 20+ on 70% shooting when Boozer is guarding him. AK at least will still try to block the shots from the opposing PF, even if he gets bullied, and will be able to help when guys get beaten on the perimeter. People can argue whether losing Boozer will make the Jazz suffer on offense, but, honestly, how can lose Boozer make the Jazz worse defensively? Sap will still be here too. It's not like AK is the only solution at PF if we lose or trade Boozer. AK and Sap sharing PF duties would be quite interesting IMO.

That's a pretty fair argument, actually. Boozer isn't overpowered like a child like AK would be, but what's the difference if they're scoring on him? I'm going to have to give this some thought.

[JStockLivesOn]

Let's discuss the offensive end, though. This isn't AK's team, as it was in 2003. AK couldn't step in and pick up Boozer's role at the 4 offensively; they're too different in their skill sets. Where would that leave us?

[schneiderjazz]

Almost every no name PF in the legue goes for 20+ on 70% shooting when Boozer is guarding him.

I would love for you (or anyone else) to back up this statement. Obviously, defense is Boozer's weakness, but it's not half as bad as people make it out to be.

That was an overstatement. Come on. But it does happen more often than we all would like. So you honestly believe that AK would do a worse job than Boozer guarding PFs?

This is a list of the starting PFs from last season:

M. Williams K. Garnett E. Okafor D. Gooden B. Wallace D. Nowitzki K. Martin R. Wallace A. Harrington L. Scola T. Murphy E. Brand V. Radmanovic H. Warrick U. Haslem C. Villanueva R. Gomes N. Krstic D. West Z. Randolph N. Collison R. Lewis R. Evans A. Stoudemire L. Aldridge M. Moore T. Duncan C. Bosh C. Boozer A. Jamison

I honestly think that the majority of them are bigger mismatches for Boozer tha for AK.

Let's discuss the offensive end, though. This isn't AK's team, as it was in 2003. AK couldn't step in and pick up Boozer's role at the 4 offensively; they're too different in their skill sets. Where would that leave us?

I believe the Jazz would suffer at first on offense, but this team has won some games with Boozer out of the lineup. They probably wouldn't run the pick and roll as much, but, as someone pointed out in another thread (I'm not really an expert on the flex offense), the Jazz offense is more than just the pick and roll, there's also a lot of screening and cutting and AK's been here long enough to know the offense. I believe Memo is also getting a little underrated offensively. He really stepped up when Boozer was out of the lineup since they arrived in SLC.

[JStockLivesOn]

But the games we've played without Boozer in recent history, we've played Paul at the 4, not AK. The offense functions the same, because Millsap has enough of a similar skill set to Boozer offensively (obviously they're not comparable, but Paul can do the same types of things).

Obviously the Jazz offense is more than just the pick-and-roll, but it's still an important part of what we do, especially toward the end of the shot clock when nothing's going. That's not a go-to play you could run with AK.

Memo's good for a pick-and-pop, but he and Deron seldom run a pick-and-roll, to the best of my recollection.

[schneiderjazz]

But the games we've played without Boozer in recent history, we've played Paul at the 4, not AK. The offense functions the same, because Millsap has enough of a similar skill set to Boozer offensively (obviously they're not comparable, but Paul can do the same types of things).

Obviously the Jazz offense is more than just the pick-and-roll, but it's still an important part of what we do, especially toward the end of the shot clock when nothing's going. That's not a go-to play you could run with AK.

Memo's good for a pick-and-pop, but he and Deron seldom run a pick-and-roll, to the best of my recollection.

Completely agree. The Jazz would probably have to change part of their offense. Thing is, they might gain more on defense than they're losing on offense, if we can get a decent player for Boozer. If he just walks or if, next year, it comes down to choosing between him and Memo, it will be a tough situation. I honestly wouldn't know what to do if I were KOC.

[carrottop12]

Uh, the Jazz were a slightly below average defensive team in 03-04. This year, they were just outside the top 10. We were a better team defenisvely this year than that season.

AK brings some pros and some cons. Everyone acknowledges that he would bring some sweet things to the table at the 4--what with his shot blocking and dirsuptive abilities--but you would have to be out of your ever loving mind to think that he won't get bullied by some of the bigger, stronger power players in this league. Its just how it is.

Now, maybe, MAYBE, what he brings to the table will outweigh what he takes off of it. That is what we should be debating, not whether or not he will get pushed around.

The Jazz are nowhere near the threat they were with low post defense this year compared to 03-04. Players didn't abuse the Jazz so regularly with easy lay ups off of Boozer's horrible defensive rotations that cost the Jazz at least 6 points a game. Easily.

And everyone keeps saying AK's going to get bullied by the bigger players in the league, but no one says who. There just aren't a lot of tough guys in the league any more, and the guys who are almost always play center. And like everyone else has said, which of these guys doesn't bully around Boozer? At least AK can stay with the athletic ones, Boozer can't help on either.

What AK brings is a legit shot blocking threat, defensive rotations, and a rarely seen dynamic in the NBA.

Boozer brings no defense, no shot blocking, no charges taken, no rotation, and no speed for transitions.

On offense AK isn't a 20 point guy, but he can be a 17 ppg given 12 shots a game.

Then like everyone says, the Jazz have Millsap coming of the bench, and expect better scoring prowess from both Deron and Brewer next year.

The Jazz could cover what Boozer brings with more then adequate replacements.

[MeestR]

im posting this here because i cant find a thread that it's more appropriate for....but AK doesn't necessarily NEED to play the 4 for the jazz if boozer is gone.

we're already 2 deep at the 4 (okur and millsap) and have 3 centers (fes, kufos, and collins). granted, it would be nice to drop collins, and neither fes or kufos are proven yet. but still, AK is not as needed at the 4 as we are making him out to be.

personally, i like the point forward position with AK. DW has experience at the shooting guard position and knows how to spread defenses for the ball handler. and the jazz are a FUN team to watch when AK47 is on top of his game. he doesn't need to play post or wing (and IMO shouldn't) to be successful.

[nyjazz]

The issue is not really whether AK can play the 4 or not. I think I speak for most of us when I argue that he would be more effective at the 4 than he is today. However, the issue with AK at the 4 is not about how effective AK would be at that position. Nor is the issue how many regular season games we would win with AK at the 4. The issue is that with AK at the 4, we are simply too small and too weak defensively in the half court against our likely post season match ups.

Having a front court rotation of AK, Okur, Millsap, Collins, Fes, and the rookie Cs, is just not enough against west playoff teams, regardless how many sweet shooting cream puffs you stack at the SG/SF.

And for those of you that think moving Okur to the 4, sorry but he is just not fast or athletic enough to handle many of his opponents at that position, except for limited minutes when there is favorable substitution matchups.

This discussion really all boils down to our perception that Boozer's D is terrible and he therefore needs to be replaced. Sorry but that is a bunch of crap also. Sure, everybody that follows the Jazz knows that at times Boozer forgets to play with intensity, which really exposes him on D. But what we miss is that this has a lot more to do with that we keep expecting Boozer to play D like Malone, with a nasty meaness and determination. But that is completely unfair comparison, Malone is probably the best pf that ever played. What we forget is that outside of Duncan (who really is a C) among the premier pf in the league today there is really nobody that plays with a defensive intensity that compares to Malone, and in fact Boozer is quite an average defender.

Our team was good enough to win it all this year, just that a few plays weren't executed well enough, a few calls went against us that shouldn't have, and the ball simply didn't bounce our way. It happens. If we keep the team intact, we will again have a team good enough to win it all.

[erudite23]

This discussion really all boils down to our perception that Boozer's D is terrible and he therefore needs to be replaced. Sorry but that is a bunch of crap also. Sure, everybody that follows the Jazz knows that at times Boozer forgets to play with intensity, which really exposes him on D. But what we miss is that this has a lot more to do with that we keep expecting Boozer to play D like Malone, with a nasty meaness and determination. But that is completely unfair comparison, Malone is probably the best pf that ever played. What we forget is that outside of Duncan (who really is a C) among the premier pf in the league today there is really nobody that plays with a defensive intensity that compares to Malone, and in fact Boozer is quite an average defender.

Our team was good enough to win it all this year, just that a few plays weren't executed well enough, a few calls went against us that shouldn't have, and the ball simply didn't bounce our way. It happens. If we keep the team intact, we will again have a team good enough to win it all.

I was going to post basically this same thing. Boozer does not get abused by opposing PFs. I have never, not even once, thought "Wow, here we go giving up another big game to an opposing PF". He isn't a good defender, he might not even be average, but he's not TERRIBLE either. Its not like he is a turnstile or a matador. He just doesn't hustle and make plays defensively. That's all.

There are times when he is exposed because he doesn't have elite athleticism....but how many can you say that about? I think most people on this board have visions of Odom continually blowing by him for easy buckets and think ------> Boozer=horrible defender. New Flash****: almost every PF in the league would get abused by a guy like Odom on the perimeter, its his specialty.

I have yet to see the smallest evidence that Boozer regularly allows big games to the man he is guarding. In fact, I read in one thread (can't remember which one it was) on another board that Boozer had a fairly good Allowed PER (or whatever its called). If anyone knows where to find these numbers, I would love to see what they look like. Booze isn't TD or Karl, for sure, but he sure as hell isn't Tim Thomas, either.

[Getjazz]

Well if the Jazz trade for Wallace he would bring: 19.4 PT's, 6 RB's, 3.5 AST, 1 BK and over 2 steals a game. That my friend is a difference maker. Not to mention the perimeter defence he brings and the help defence. He is a STUD!! AK would be just fine manning the post with Wallace backing him up from the wing.
Just take a second and think about 3 of the best steal men in the league all on the same team. That could be something special.

[carrottop12]

I'm starting to think a lot of people on this board are forgetting what real low post defense looks like.

Excusing Boozer for playing the defense he does is unbelievable. Did you watch the Lakers series this year? Boozer got raped by Lamar Odom who was terrible all playoffs long. And I mean raped, Odom did whatever he wanted to Boozer. Shot over him, around him, drove past him, you name it, Odom did it.

"But he's average..." No, he isn't. And for a potential max contract he better not be **** average. He sucks at defense. He sucks in every fashion. He doesn't block shots, he doesn't move his feet, he doesn't draw charges, and he doesn't slow down anyone coming in from the perimeter. And you think he's average? Hahahahahahahaha. Give me a break.

Look at David West, there is no reason Boozer shouldn't be twice the defender David West is. He is just as quick, and twice as strong, and yet Boozer doesn't have near the affect that West does on defense.

"But he's average" Hahahahahaha. Not even close.

And nobody is asking him to be the Mailman, we're asking him to try.