Westbrook situation

[BIG EDDIE]

Fans have obviously very different opinions on this.
Some people say Westbrook is awesome and still improving, growing, learning and that he'll grow into a true PG, where he can lead our team, make good decisions and make his teammates better around him.
Some of these people believe everything is ok with the Thunder and that in 1-2 years we'll be unstoppable.
On the other hand, some people blame our lack of coaching, especially on the offensive end, saying that its not Westbrooks fault that he looks lost at time and tries to initiate offense by himself.

Some people say Westbrook is egoistic, a ball-hog, wants to play Heroball and can not lead a team. These fans want to see him traded, because they dont believe Russ can ever change.

Now, I say, that the coaching issue is big and we need to fix it, BUT ALSO, I dont see how Westbrook will ever be a true leader, a playmaker for us.
I dont say its a MUST, because look at teams like the Bulls, the Lakers or the 94-95 Rockets, they never had a true PG, they played in a system where it was not needed.
Fine, but for that we really need a true system, which we DONT have at this moment.

As of Westbrook, he still very much reminds me of Stephone Marbury, who was also very talented and (check this out) he averaged right around 8-9 assists per game. Now do you think Marbury was a good player? His stats indicate so, but he was a looser, because he never really knew what it takes to win, how to lead a team, how to make his teammates better. He was simply too dumb, sorry.

Now what makes Russ already better that Marbury is his work ethic, but there are still plenty of similarities and Im afraid Westbrook will end up like Marbury.

Here you can compare the stats of them:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/stephon_m ... stats.html
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/russell_w ... stats.html

Again, Im not a Westbrook hater, I wish he could grow into what we all want, but I just cant see that happening. He is a Streetball player!

[Earl Sweatshirt]

Westbrook, a street-ball player? That's a first.

[BadWolf]

Marbury + KG - three times first round exit (ok, two), best record 45-37
Westbrook + KD - WCF, best record 55-27

[dream_catcher_9]

Westbrook and Harden are going to share Ball-Handling duties down the road IMO. Sort of like Parker and Ginobili. Its going to be awesome once they learn to play together.

[slick_watts]

Westbrook and Harden are going to share Ball-Handling duties down the road IMO. Sort of like Parker and Ginobili. Its going to be awesome once they learn to play together.

Agreed.

On Marbury vs. Westbrook. Marbury was a PG all his life, a NYC legend growing up. Top recruit, played PG on a good college team, and did not have a huge learning curve heading into the NBA. Westbrook barely played PG in college, he was a bench player initially in the NBA, then starter. He had to earn everything and basically learn on the fly. There's this prevailing thought that Westbrook will always be a high usage, ball hog, shooter. But he really hasn't been that until this season, almost be necessity. People forget that Durant started slow, Green was bad, Harden wasn't used much. Westbrook carried the Thunder on his back on the strength of his scoring early in the year until Durant woke up. So, I don't think it's fair to make comparisons to a guy like Marbury whose play-style was well ingrained early in his career. Westbrook is still under construction.

Look at the guys he starts with. Perkins is a 15% USG guy. Ibaka is a 15% USG guy. Thabo's been around 10% since he came here. Durant is 30%. That leaves 30% of possessions to who? Russell Westbrook. Unless you want to throw more possessions at the three stooges, and really, is that much better than Westbrook getting those opportunities? All Playoffs I noticed Russell start every game trying to get others involved. It worked sometimes, but most of the time it was tough because of Ibaka's inexperience, Perkins' health, and Thabo's inability. Those three need the ball in very specific locations, set up in specific ways in order to score. It'd be tough on any PG, much less one who's basically learning as he goes. And that usually sets the tone for the rest of the game. Those circumstances don't absolve Westbrook of his poor decision making, but it's tough to develop that rhythm and trust in your teammates when you're running PnR with Ibaka / Perkins, and have Thabo Sefolosha spotting up from 3PT range.

Starting Harden has the potential to fix everything. Harden's a 20%+ USG guy. Westbrook can give up some of his possessions and give them to Harden, and we're good. Westbrook is a terror off the ball, cutting, running around and doing his "crazy stuff" (his words). He's not opposed to it, it's just something that has to be worked on. My ideal split for the starting unit would be Perkins 10%, Ibaka 15%, Durant 30%, Harden 22%, Westbrook 23%. There's your distribution of possessions. Westbrook can pick up more shots when Harden subs out.

The keys are for Ibaka to get comfortable in the PnR and PnP. He's got the tools but he has to get smart on the court and really work on that. Perkins has to get healthy and needs to be able to finish at the rim. Westbrook and Durant have to be able to move around without the ball with Harden handling, and same for Durant and Harden when Westbrook is handling. It doesn't have to be a complicated offense, just an active one.

Westbrook had higher assist ratio than Derrick Rose this season and comparable to Tony Parker. He can be a floor general, a leader, and play maker. But by necessity and circumstance I think he went a little overboard with the shooting this year. I suspect he's open to development and coaching and next season, provided Harden starts, we'll see another transformation of his game.

[HeartSouloma]

LOL at this article.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 ... 67695.html

D). Westbrook for Jose Calderon and two first round picks

I'm going to take some heat for this one, but consider my argument before you blast me.

Calderon is a terrific passer and ideal fit for the Thunder given his wondrous ability to run an offense. Although nowhere near the raw athlete or physical presence of Westbrook, Calderon is a lead guard who can score when needed but also thrives on the pick-and-roll. A career 38.3 percent three-point shooter (compared to RW's 27.4 percent) with one of the best assists-to-turnover ratios in basketball, you can't go under screens and load up on Kevin Durant the way Dallas did in the conference finals. He immediately allows Durant to be 'the guy,' and drastically lowers the Thunder's league-worst turnover clip.

Part of OKC's problem in the playoffs was Scott Brooks' predictable offense. Much of that issue however, stemmed from Westbrook demanding the ball, especially late in games. Calderon has far better recognition of matchups than Westbrook and his selflessness will only benefit the balance of this offense.

Value on the dollar for OKC: + $.25

[BadWolf]

great article actually

Option A). Westbrook for Ricky Rubio

The real wildcard here. Who knows what David Kahn and the Timberwolves have in store for their Spanish import, but Rubio's camp has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't want to play in Minnesota. This would be a win-win. Kevin Love -- as great as he is -- is still a No. 2 option, allowing Westbrook to be the go-to guy. Plus, the Wolves have a slew of young and talented 3-4 wings (Wesley Johnson, Michael Beasley and maybe Derrick Williams from the draft) who would all be good running mates.

And Rubio would excel in the Thunder offense, where he could run the screen-and-roll and still push tempo as much as he wants. Plus, both are still in the infancy stages of development (Rubio is 20) and would thus be building blocks at the game's most important position.

might be the worst trade idea ever

[BIG EDDIE]

Just read the article now ( http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/2 ... 67695.html ) and I totally agree.
Deron WIlliams or Chris Paul would be a dream.
Ricky Rubio would be a wild card.
Calderon is a NO for me.
Steve Nash is too old, his window is closing too soon.

Deron or Chris I would take right away and Ricky Rubio, if we get other players along with him, then Im fine with that too.

You think Presti trades Westbrook? I mean, if he wants to keep him then he will have to give him a long-term contract this year.
What do you guys think? I think he will be dealt by the Draft.

[slick_watts]

No, Sam Presti is not going to trade Westbrook.

[BIG EDDIE]

No, Sam Presti is not going to trade Westbrook.

Why? How do you know that?

[slick_watts]

No, Sam Presti is not going to trade Westbrook.

Why? How do you know that?

Westbrook is 22, All Star, All NBA 2nd Team. They just made the WCF. He had a spectacular regular season. Sam Presti is not going to get equal value for Westbrook if he trades him now, especially because he is still on rookie scale for one more year. Giving up a young point guard with Westbrook's background and career trajectory to this point would be very short sighted - not something Sam Presti is known to be.

[BIG EDDIE]

No, Sam Presti is not going to trade Westbrook.

Why? How do you know that?

Westbrook is 22, All Star, All NBA 2nd Team. They just made the WCF. He had a spectacular regular season. Sam Presti is not going to get equal value for Westbrook if he trades him now, especially because he is still on rookie scale for one more year. Giving up a young point guard with Westbrook's background and career trajectory to this point would be very short sighted - not something Sam Presti is known to be.

He could do a sign-and-trade with him. Why not? His value is high right now.
He had a fantastic year, statistically.
Like you said, All-Star and All NBA 2nd team.
Lets be honest here, even if we keep him and he improves alot, he will never have the vision and smarts that Chris Paul or Deron Williams have. I dont see him developing that much from here, because what makes him good is his speed, his jumping ability, his explosiveness. Those will fade away with time and I dont see him becoming a good shoter (his shot motion is poor) or a good facilitator (bad court vision and "not smart enough").

Your turn

[HeartSouloma]

^ Sam is not going to trade Westbrook! The only way I see him trading Westbrook is if he going want to not resign with us, then we trade him. Other than that hes not leaving this team he loves it here.

[slick_watts]

He could do a sign-and-trade with him. Why not? His value is high right now.

I dont see him developing that much from here, because what makes him good is his speed, his jumping ability, his explosiveness.

This is where I feel you are seriously undervaluing Russell Westbrook.

eFG: .414, .428, .454
TS%: .489, .491, .538
AST%: 27.5, 38.6, 42.7
ORTG: 99, 105, 110
TOV%: 17.6, 16.6, 15.9
FG% at rim: 47%, 52.7%, 60.4%

Russell has done nothing but improve on most of his key areas offensively. He's maintained his FG% from mid range despite taking more attempts there, and creating more of them on his own (i.e. tougher shots). There's absolutely no reason to believe, considering his development so far, that he will suddenly stop getting better.

Not many players can increase their USG by the amount Russell did this season and increase their scoring efficiency at the same time.

Games Missed last three seasons:

Chris Paul: 43
Deron Williams: 40
Russell Westbrook: 0

A healthy, young NBA PG not even close to his playing prime, who has improved on so many things in three seasons, hasn't missed a game in his career, hard worker who is coachable, wants to play in OKC, just came off a WCF season? Are you kidding me? Sure, if the Thunder feel that Chris Paul's long term prognosis is fine you consider that. But otherwise? No way. Russell Westbrook is a serious young player.

[hammel123]

posted this article on the bulls board, there's a small discussion about parallels between players who are friends keeping open possibility of playing together (see Miami). It's no secret Rose and Westbrook practice together in the off season

I think people here are really underestimating how difficult it is to change positions once you get to the elite level. Bulls forced Rose to be an all out scorer (because of need) and it back fired in the playoffs, now they're desperately searching for a guard who can create his own shot. Similarly, Westbrook will always be a combo guard and if it takes your mgmt 2-3 years to figure it out, the choice will be easy you'd keep Durant.

The difference between triangle offense teams and OKC is that primary scorer (Jordan, Kobe) were able to drive the ball at will. Watching Durant struggle to get past Kidd it's clear you need a traditional point to initiate offense. Westbrook was asked to do it, but he just kept going for his own shot

[sonictecture]

posted this article on the bulls board, there's a small discussion about parallels between players who are friends keeping open possibility of playing together (see Miami). It's no secret Rose and Westbrook practice together in the off season

If Westbrook had only Rose as a friend in the NBA or if Westbrook only practiced with Rose exclusively in the offseason perhaps your fantasy or Westbrook joining the Bulls would be worthy of dreaming about. Unfortunately for you Westbrook has multiple friends on his own team and spends significantly more time practicing with them.

I think people here are really underestimating how difficult it is to change positions once you get to the elite level. Bulls forced Rose to be an all out scorer (because of need) and it back fired in the playoffs, now they're desperately searching for a guard who can create his own shot. Similarly, Westbrook will always be a combo guard and if it takes your mgmt 2-3 years to figure it out, the choice will be easy you'd keep Durant.

I'll let you debate yourself on this one.

I think you try to bring the most talent you can and worry about positional needs later.

I agree with the you that thinks you acquire the most talent you can. Instead of worrying about positional needs, you surround that talent with complimentary pieces. Draft a James Harden type, allow him some time to grow and put him alongside Westbrook as a starter. Yeah, that's a good start.

[miltk]

big eddie,,,

imo, the BROAD perspective of the situation is this...the fans who who say the players/team/westy will improve are patient. those who ask for change are not. it's really that simple. you are questioning the ability of a player/team to develop. essentially, you question a group of 5 core players who's combined years of experience is 17. it is impossible to foresee how the team, as constituted, will play out.

as you pointed out, there is no need for a "pure pg". in fact, i mentioned in another thread, the NEW PARADIGM is the SHOOTING pg. rose, westy, parker, davis, jennings, cp3, williams, curry, wall, kyrie irving all score. boston almost didn't draft rondo because he couldn't score. then you have a bunch of 3rd tier pg's who have way less impact on a game and either shooter better than pass or pass better than shoot. and finally you have the 2 or 3 really pure pg's.

and as for history, as you know, there's SA(parker), kobe LAL(fisher), wilt's LAL (classic 2 sg's west/goodrich), walton's blazers(hollins), the bird celts(johnson), the russell celts(jones), bullets(hendersom - had to look it up ), houston(smith), chicago(whoever), wilt's 76'ers(jones as in wali), even clyde frazier was a 19/6 pg with the knicks...none of them had a "pure pg", and we're even going back to the old days...that's almost 40 rings in 50 years. now, what those past champions DID have was a really really really smart group of players. in fact bball iq/experience is the common denominator of all those teams. so as a group, okc is far far from being smart and experienced. okc has what every exec/coach dreams of having,,,raw material. it is almost insane to criticize this.

i think okc has been built with patience and that's their template. i also think people's opinion of westy would be different if he had fewer TO's and shot better, and both can be improved upon. it's not that he shot so much, it's that he shot so much and made so few.

the focus on westy is inconsequential to the whole. westy is playing the way brooks and the team needs him to play.

[IanChang]

There's no reason why the fans shouldn't be patient about the team. For the past 3 seasons I saw Westbrook make big progress on vertually every aspect yaer by year, though there's still much room for improvement to be a great PG, he shouldn't be dumped rught now for his lack of ability to help team win a champion this year.

As Jeff Van Gundy has commented on the little "Wild Thing" Russell Westbrook:
"He's able to do so many things that an ordinary PG can't do."

Give Russ some time. Yeah, he should be criticized, but he should not be traded at this moment.