James Harden

[theokie]

This is an absoute joke. I'm assuming you weren't alive when Eddie Jones played then. He had those number in 1 season, and did it on poor shooting. C'mon, you're better than that. Don't troll.

You asked when has a player as good as harden ever been dumped, not 'when has a player who would be as good as harden down the road, ever got dumped.' Their first years after being dumped Harden and Jones were the same caliber of players. Btw Jones shot 43 and 38 per cents and Harden shot 44 and 38.

Again I'm gonna assume you're trolling or just completely uninformed because debating Eddie Jones over James Harden is just pointless

[Balkman32]

I don't think he is saying he is AS good as Harden but a decent piece. His numbers are pretty legit for the first two seasons with Shaq. But, Jones was dealt for Glenn Rice. Not two first round picks.

I don't think you will see a trade like this in the past. Small Market teams in this CBA can really only have one All Star. Yet the thunder have figured out a way with their great drafting to maybe have three all stars. Ibaka is almost avgering a double double with 2 blocks a game.

[spearsy23]

This is an absoute joke. I'm assuming you weren't alive when Eddie Jones played then. He had those number in 1 season, and did it on poor shooting. C'mon, you're better than that. Don't troll.

You asked when has a player as good as harden ever been dumped, not 'when has a player who would be as good as harden down the road, ever got dumped.' Their first years after being dumped Harden and Jones were the same caliber of players. Btw Jones shot 43 and 38 per cents and Harden shot 44 and 38.

Again I'm gonna assume you're trolling or just completely uninformed because debating Eddie Jones over James Harden is just pointless

Because you say so?
Points- 20.1 vs 25.9
Rebounds- 4.8 vs 4.9
Assists- 4.2 vs 5.8
Turnovers- 2.2 vs 3.8
Fg%- .427 vs .438
3pt%- .375 vs .368
Steals- 2.7 vs 1.8
Blocks- .7 vs .5
Defensive win shares- 4.4 vs 3.0
Orating-Drating- 10.0 vs 10.0
On-off- (data not available til the following year but that year) +1.1 vs -3.8
Pace adjusted these numbers would look even more similar.

Just because you love Harden it doesn't make him some otherworldly player. He's atrocious defensively and his team was better with him on the bench last year. He's a superstar, but Eddie jones was every bit as good...THE YEAR after he was gotten rid of. That's not me saying Eddie jones had as good a career as James Harden will have, that's me saying they were very comparable when traded.

On an extreme optimism note: 2 years after Jones was traded, his former team won a championship.

[theokie]

You asked when has a player as good as harden ever been dumped, not 'when has a player who would be as good as harden down the road, ever got dumped.' Their first years after being dumped Harden and Jones were the same caliber of players. Btw Jones shot 43 and 38 per cents and Harden shot 44 and 38.

Again I'm gonna assume you're trolling or just completely uninformed because debating Eddie Jones over James Harden is just pointless

Because you say so?
Points- 20.1 vs 25.9
Rebounds- 4.8 vs 4.9
Assists- 4.2 vs 5.8
Turnovers- 2.2 vs 3.8
Fg%- .427 vs .438
3pt%- .375 vs .368
Steals- 2.7 vs 1.8
Blocks- .7 vs .5
Defensive win shares- 4.4 vs 3.0
Orating-Drating- 10.0 vs 10.0
On-off- (data not available til the following year but that year) +1.1 vs -3.8
Pace adjusted these numbers would look even more similar.

Just because you love Harden it doesn't make him some otherworldly player. He's atrocious defensively and his team was better with him on the bench last year. He's a superstar, but Eddie jones was every bit as good...THE YEAR after he was gotten rid of. That's not me saying Eddie jones had as good a career as James Harden will have, that's me saying they were very comparable when traded.

On an extreme optimism note: 2 years after Jones was traded, his former team won a championship.

Well obviously when you look at the raw stats, Harden is clearly better. Its cute how you ignore most advanced stats and then randomly chose the one that Jones had an advantage. You're really going to arbitrarily use defensive win shares and completely ignore, oh idk... offensive win shares, true shooting %, total win shares, eFG%, PER, etc. etc.

Seriously though, if you want to believe that Eddie Jones was "every bit the player" that James Harden is, thats your prerogative. Its hilarious, but you're entitled to your opinion. Theres really no point of trying to argue this if you're that hard headed.

[spearsy23]

Again I'm gonna assume you're trolling or just completely uninformed because debating Eddie Jones over James Harden is just pointless

Because you say so?
Points- 20.1 vs 25.9
Rebounds- 4.8 vs 4.9
Assists- 4.2 vs 5.8
Turnovers- 2.2 vs 3.8
Fg%- .427 vs .438
3pt%- .375 vs .368
Steals- 2.7 vs 1.8
Blocks- .7 vs .5
Defensive win shares- 4.4 vs 3.0
Orating-Drating- 10.0 vs 10.0
On-off- (data not available til the following year but that year) +1.1 vs -3.8
Pace adjusted these numbers would look even more similar.

Just because you love Harden it doesn't make him some otherworldly player. He's atrocious defensively and his team was better with him on the bench last year. He's a superstar, but Eddie jones was every bit as good...THE YEAR after he was gotten rid of. That's not me saying Eddie jones had as good a career as James Harden will have, that's me saying they were very comparable when traded.

On an extreme optimism note: 2 years after Jones was traded, his former team won a championship.

Well obviously when you look at the raw stats, Harden is clearly better. Its cute how you ignore most advanced stats and then randomly chose the one that Jones had an advantage. You're really going to arbitrarily use defensive win shares and completely ignore, oh idk... offensive win shares, true shooting %, total win shares, eFG%, PER, etc. etc.

Seriously though, if you want to believe that Eddie Jones was "every bit the player" that James Harden is, thats your prerogative. Its hilarious, but you're entitled to your opinion. Theres really no point of trying to argue this if you're that hard headed.

Clearly better by virtue of scoring more points? I don't think ppg makes you a better player. The reason I cherry picked defensive win shares is because there aren't stats for defense like there are offense, harden is clearly the better offensive player, though not by as much as you're pretending. But jones was clearly twice the defender harden is. Comparing ts% and things like eFG% across two different eras, particularly one where there were rule changes favoring offensive players is pointless as is PER across years. The only advanced stat that I think will tell you a lot about players from different time frames is on/off, because it's the only one that gives you a complete view of how they're helping their teams. Where is the clear advantage Harden has? The only things with any meaningful seperation are ppg and assists in favor of Harden and turnovers, steals, on/off and defense in favor of Jones. Points and assists are meaningful stats, but so is the rest of the game and Jones is helped out even more if you pace adjust to match Harden's team that played fastest in the league.

Edit: to add further to the comparison, both were 3rd team all NBA, all stars, and Jones was 2nd team all defense.

[nyhuskyfan]

Adrian Dantley was dealt midseason. He's probably comparable to Harden (offensive savant, defensive liability). But that's going back aways.

[Thunderhead]

And for those who think the Thunder would be better paying the luxury tax, look at the position the Nets are in now since Lopez is out for the season. They have no flexibility. If they bring in a center, its going to cost them $7 in luxury tax for every $1 of new salary.

For a team committed to paying the tax, losing Lopez is the nightmare scenario. Nets will survive this because they are large market, but if this happened to a small market team, its takes the team down a path of getting moved to another city. Cause it would take years to recover.

[wizkid27]

And for those who think the Thunder would be better paying the luxury tax, look at the position the Nets are in now since Lopez is out for the season. They have no flexibility. If they bring in a center, its going to cost them $7 in luxury tax for every $1 of new salary.

For a team committed to paying the tax, losing Lopez is the nightmare scenario. Nets will survive this because they are large market, but if this happened to a small market team, its takes the team down a path of getting moved to another city. Cause it would take years to recover.

I think "survive" is used pretty loosely here... They're in about the worst place possible and they completely put themselves there. They have almost all aging players, not much talent in the pipelines and no draft picks to change that. To top it off, their "stacked" team can't even win games this year, and I don't see too many scenarios which have this being anything other than their best season in the next several (guys are only getting older, they can't sign anyone, no vets will play for minimum to be on this team, etc.)

[Thunderhead]

And for those who think the Thunder would be better paying the luxury tax, look at the position the Nets are in now since Lopez is out for the season. They have no flexibility. If they bring in a center, its going to cost them $7 in luxury tax for every $1 of new salary.

For a team committed to paying the tax, losing Lopez is the nightmare scenario. Nets will survive this because they are large market, but if this happened to a small market team, its takes the team down a path of getting moved to another city. Cause it would take years to recover.

I think "survive" is used pretty loosely here... They're in about the worst place possible and they completely put themselves there. They have almost all aging players, not much talent in the pipelines and no draft picks to change that. To top it off, their "stacked" team can't even win games this year, and I don't see too many scenarios which have this being anything other than their best season in the next several (guys are only getting older, they can't sign anyone, no vets will play for minimum to be on this team, etc.)

That's true, Nets are a mess.

I was just thinking Prokhorov would just buy them out of their mistakes. He might have a $200 million payroll PLUS, but he would just keep spending.

If that's possible. I'm not sure under the new CBA that even loads of money will help.

[RainCity]

Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.

when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?

Drafting Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden in a three year span and having all of them develop the way they did, put OKC in a very unique position. I understand your question, but also, when was the last time a team developed a core of draft picks the way the Thunder did within a three year span? I was not expecting all four players to develop as quickly as they did, and realistically you would have assumed at least one of them would have progressed at a slower rate. All four developed into a contending core rather rapidly, and IMP, I believe that put OKC in a situation of basically having to pick and choose who to keep and who to move. A very unique situation.

[DontH8TheBrody]

Kind of off topic with Harden.. He is still one of my favorite players in the league but after watching him play a lot more this year with Houston, does anybody else ever feel like he has a really bad attitude? The more I watch the more I see a super talented but super immature individual.. I feel like RW, and Durant especially have really matured and seem all business a lot of the time, and when I look at James, sometimes I still just see an unbelievable talent, but an immature leader and a guy who might care more about his individual success and accolades rather then winning.

[Mr Grant Hill]

Kind of off topic with Harden.. He is still one of my favorite players in the league but after watching him play a lot more this year with Houston, does anybody else ever feel like he has a really bad attitude? The more I watch the more I see a super talented but super immature individual.. I feel like RW, and Durant especially have really matured and seem all business a lot of the time, and when I look at James, sometimes I still just see an unbelievable talent, but an immature leader and a guy who might care more about his individual success and accolades rather then winning.

very good observation.
the difference between durant and harden is like the difference between duncan and howard.
it's the difference between athletes and celebs.

[DontH8TheBrody]

Still think he has a big ego and some growing up to do, but every time Westbrook goes down it gets magnified how we could still really use him. RJ has come back to earth after starting, and Lamb is still super young. The difference with Ibaka and Harden as 3rd option is that Ibaka completely relies on others to create his shots. When Durant is getting doubled without the Brody, we all miss having that reckless go to the hoop at will Harden.. Tough for Serge to consistently produce when he relies on pick and roll deep 2s, and doesn't have much of a post up game.. Jackson has to attack rim more and stop settling for mid range contested jumpers.

[ghostowl]

I've watched a TON of Rocket games this season and last season, and I can safely say that Harden is overrated. His defense is probably the worst in the league. Everytime he plays a game, the opposing average SG has a career night and gets 25+ points. Harden can put up large numbers (20, 25, 30 points a game) but (1) he takes a lot of shots (2) he plays Point Guard and has heavy ball usage compared to regular shooting guards (3) he gets a lot of calls from his drive.

Harden is not necessarily fast. His speed is average I would say. But he pulls out his arms when he gets hit during drives, and he excels at the body motion for getting calls. His shooting is looking very good this season and last season.

But during games where he doesn't get much calls, and his shots don't go in, he becomes useless. And when his non-existent defense combines with those assets and he iso's the ball every team play, he becomes a huge liability.

I'm not discrediting Harden; I think he's still a great player that can get to the foul line and make a lot of jump shots. But you'd be a bandwagon fool to believe he's a top 5 player. Just offensively alone, he's a top 10 player at best (because he usually gets calls very often). But when he doesn't get calls, he would be a top 15 player offensively. If you look at both defensive and offensive, Harden would not make the top 15 list. His defense is probably the worst in the entire league right now.

[spearsy23]

Drawing fouls is a skill, and a Harden has the perfect tools to do it, he changes speeds and directions exceptionally well, has a wide body and is left handed. He flops too, no question, but he knows how to get calls.