Adams >>> Perkins

[bondom34]

Semi OT, but the NY Times did an article on Adams, both on court and his life:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/sport ... .html?_r=1

Good read, really seems like a great guy.

[Bravenewworld]

Adam's offensive skill set is that of a high producing low post/semi-low post big man. Add to the fact that i think its safe to say he will develop that mid range jump shot that every single OKC player seems to get, its not at all a stretch.
And btw, Ibaka is a 20+ guy right now. Hes just not a 20+ on the Thunder. Adams will be the same way.

I think you're being quite generous with your assessments. Adams lacks several qualities of a "high producing low post" big man. The first is that he can't dribble very well. He doesn't have great court awareness or ball skills. He has good strength but doesn't leverage his body well or get low on the block. He can't finish with his left hand. And he has little offensive game beyond the restricted area. The only major scoring option in the last couple decades that did not have an offensive game away from the restricted area was Shaq. He also struggles at the line and is prone to offensive fouls and turnovers.

Which brings us to the mid-range jump shot. First, not all OKC players develop this. Harden being the primary example. And even if they did, that is not any kind of assurance that Adams will.

Lastly, Serge Ibaka as a '20+ guy' is also quite generous, for many of the same reasons listed for Adams. Here's a list of every forward or center to average 19+ points a game in a season the last 10 seasons: http://bkref.com/tiny/rGGK4

Notice something? All of them have ball skills, dribbling skills, long range shooting skills or some combination of those things. Serge is five years into his career and is still struggling with basic ball skills, much less the confidence to work in the post and get his own shot like Jermaine O'Neal, David West, or Al Jefferson. Serge is one of the league's best mid-range shooters, he's decent on the PnR and possesses increased range to the three point line -- but almost all of his offensive repertoire is contingent upon others to set him up. Which raises a conundrum: if he needs others to set him up to score, how does he increase his FGA and usage to score more himself? Answer: he can't.

1. I dont think i am being generous with Serge at all. This is a guy averaging 15 on a team behind the highest scorer in the NBA, another 22+ scorer, an offense that runs only a handful of plays per game for him and he often falls to the 4th option. And he is getting 15 on this team, with good percentages. Not great, but good.

2. Adams has actually shown us he has a good range for his jumper. He has also shown low post promise and a defensive prowess. For his height he runs the floor fantastically. His passing out of the paint is improving and his vision is improving. Pretty much everything you list is due to his inexperience, this guys only been playing ball like what? 3 years? The dude is raw, im just saying that is what i think his potential is. Also there is no conundrum about his scoring, on a team with a guy like KD and Westbrook, the offense is going to need to be adjusted to get the big the ball.

[spearsy23]

There's nothing to suggest Ibaka is a 20 ppg guy. His only real value offensively is the ability to shoot, he can't put the ball on the floor and has no real back to the basket game. He feasts off wide open jumpers, playing with Russ and KD HELPS him, it doesn't hold him back.

[comingbacktousa]

There's nothing to suggest Ibaka is a 20 ppg guy. His only real value offensively is the ability to shoot, he can't put the ball on the floor and has no real back to the basket game. He feasts off wide open jumpers, playing with Russ and KD HELPS him, it doesn't hold him back.

In the month Westbrook didn't play his scoring went up to 16.5 on 60ts%. 20 is a stretch but I think he could certainly handle a bigger offensive load than he current has.

[spearsy23]

There's nothing to suggest Ibaka is a 20 ppg guy. His only real value offensively is the ability to shoot, he can't put the ball on the floor and has no real back to the basket game. He feasts off wide open jumpers, playing with Russ and KD HELPS him, it doesn't hold him back.

In the month Westbrook didn't play his scoring went up to 16.5 on 60ts%. 20 is a stretch but I think he could certainly handle a bigger offensive load than he current has.

79% of his 2 point field goals are assisted and 96% of his threes are.

[comingbacktousa]

79% of his 2 point field goals are assisted and 96% of his threes are.

Chris Bosh 77% and 96%.

Unless the nba is putting in a new rule about passing to teammates, I don't see how its relevant whether he creates his own shots or not. All OKC has to do is run plays for him. Its easy to get Ibaka open on probably the 2 simplest plays in the game. Pick and roll and pick and pop. Two plays that fit the stars of the team perfectly.

He has been OKC's most consistent player these playoffs yet his usage is drastically down. The only game he shot under 50% was when he went 2-5 but those 2 makes were 3's.

[Space Dracula]

79% of his 2 point field goals are assisted and 96% of his threes are.

Chris Bosh 77% and 96%.

Unless the nba is putting in a new rule about passing to teammates, I don't see how its relevant whether he creates his own shots or not. All OKC has to do is run plays for him. Its easy to get Ibaka open on probably the 2 simplest plays in the game. Pick and roll and pick and pop. Two plays that fit the stars of the team perfectly.

He has been OKC's most consistent player these playoffs yet his usage is drastically down. The only game he shot under 50% was when he went 2-5 but those 2 makes were 3's.

The key difference between Bosh and Ibaka is that Bosh is capable of being a true high post triple threat, which means the Heat can afford to run offense through him and incorporate him more deeply into their offense. That said, Bosh's current role for the Heat has lowered his scoring volume and usage considerably. He's only averaging 16 points per game the last two seasons. I think It's easy to envision an increase in Bosh's usage since he can put the ball on the floor and make instinctive passes when needed -- Ibaka can't really do those things.

[spearsy23]

79% of his 2 point field goals are assisted and 96% of his threes are.

Chris Bosh 77% and 96%.

Unless the nba is putting in a new rule about passing to teammates, I don't see how its relevant whether he creates his own shots or not. All OKC has to do is run plays for him. Its easy to get Ibaka open on probably the 2 simplest plays in the game. Pick and roll and pick and pop. Two plays that fit the stars of the team perfectly.

He has been OKC's most consistent player these playoffs yet his usage is drastically down. The only game he shot under 50% was when he went 2-5 but those 2 makes were 3's.

Is serge ibaka as good offensively as Chris Bosh? Bosh has a 19 ppg career average.

[Kabookalu]

Ibaka isn't as good as Bosh offensively, but they have very similar tools. Speaking as a Raptors fan, despite being insanely efficient as a scorer, Bosh had absolutely no variety to his game. His game was entirely predicated on getting to the line and nailing mid range jumpers from the pick and pop or at the elbow in the triple threat position. It was highly effective but he had no creativity to his offense. Us Raps fans used to get frustrated that Bosh spent 4 seconds holding onto the ball at the elbow when deciding what he wanted to do. If any player had the luxury to waste a good chunk of shotclock time holding onto the ball devising ways to score they'd score a lot of points too. Probably not nearly as efficiently as Bosh, but in Ibaka's case he could have put up good scoring numbers if he were given the same luxury.

I look at Ibaka and see a similar player to Bosh in his second year; a big man with a great jumpshot with good athleticism that can operate well in that triple threat position. If Ibaka was on those Raptors teams I don't think he'd be as good as Bosh was because Bosh's first step was lightning quick for a big man whereas Ibaka's is just good for a big man, but I can see him being an efficient 18ppg scorer.

What really propelled Bosh forward was Sam Mitchell in his third year. He's one of the greatest developmental coaches at getting players out of their comfort zone and realizing their potential. Bosh is very confident in utilizing the strengths he has. I don't think Ibaka has that same confidence in his game.

[spearsy23]

Ibaka isn't as good as Bosh offensively, but they have very similar tools. Speaking as a Raptors fan, despite being insanely efficient as a scorer, Bosh had absolutely no variety to his game. His game was entirely predicated on getting to the line and nailing mid range jumpers from the pick and pop or at the elbow in the triple threat position. It was highly effective but he had no creativity to his offense. Us Raps fans used to get frustrated that Bosh spent 4 seconds holding onto the ball at the elbow when deciding what he wanted to do. If any player had the luxury to waste a good chunk of shotclock time holding onto the ball devising ways to score they'd score a lot of points too. Probably not nearly as efficiently as Bosh, but in Ibaka's case he could have put up good scoring numbers if he were given the same luxury.

I look at Ibaka and see a similar player to Bosh in his second year; a big man with a great jumpshot with good athleticism that can operate well in that triple threat position. If Ibaka was on those Raptors teams I don't think he'd be as good as Bosh was because Bosh's first step was lightning quick for a big man whereas Ibaka's is just good for a big man, but I can see him being an efficient 18ppg scorer.

What really propelled Bosh forward was Sam Mitchell in his third year. He's one of the greatest developmental coaches at getting players out of their comfort zone and realizing their potential. Bosh is very confident in utilizing the strengths he has. I don't think Ibaka has that same confidence in his game.

This sentence is the only place you're wrong, but it's a big place to be wrong. Ibaka is not good out of the triple threat, he has very poor handles, is not a good passer, and doesn't recognize where help defense comes from. Those three things are necessary to have an offense ran through you when you have no semblance of a post game. Every NBA player can score 20 if you give them 25 shots, but to call a guy a 20 ppg game generally indicates he could do it on a good team. If any team made ibaka their primary scorer (and he'd have to be to score 20/night) they would be a sub 30 win team.

Edit: that's not to say he can't become one, the guy has shown every bit as much improvement since coming into the league as anyone in OKC has, and that speaks volumes about how hard he works.

[Kabookalu]

This sentence is the only place you're wrong, but it's a big place to be wrong. Ibaka is not good out of the triple threat, he has very poor handles, is not a good passer, and doesn't recognize where help defense comes from. Those three things are necessary to have an offense ran through you when you have no semblance of a post game. Every NBA player can score 20 if you give them 25 shots, but to call a guy a 20 ppg game generally indicates he could do it on a good team. If any team made ibaka their primary scorer (and he'd have to be to score 20/night) they would be a sub 30 win team.

Edit: that's not to say he can't become one, the guy has shown every bit as much improvement since coming into the league as anyone in OKC has, and that speaks volumes about how hard he works.

That also applied to Bosh in Toronto. And Ibaka certainly doesn't have good handles, but it's not like you're going to be dancing around shaking your man off in the triple threat. Don't think anyone would claim Zach Randolph to be a good dribbler and yet he's really great at operating in the triple threat.

Not saying handles isn't a part of it, but it's not as consequential as you'd think.

Although Ibaka's weird medium center of gravity does hinder him from possessing great handles.

[Grits n Gravy]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-nQM7CoqK0[/youtube]

I preface this by saying I'm a New Zealand homer but I really think Steven can become an all star, top 5 center in the league. Even me, the biggest optimist could never have foreseen in my wildest dreams Steven playing significant rotation minutes for a contender in the playoffs. His learning curve has been insane and he has incredible physical tools to work with to keep improving. He has a good feel for passing which is yet to come out, can hit the 15-16 foot jumper if a coach is willing to develop and show confidence in. Don't be suprised if Golden State makes a run at him after the Steve Kerr hiring - he loves him.

[bondom34]

I think Ibaka's got as much potential to improve on offense as just about anyone. Just this season you can tell both his range and handling (though still not great) are improved. I've seen him dribble drive and dunk for the first time I can honestly remember, which isn't necessarily something stunning, but also not to be ignored. If he can keep that as a more consistent part to his game, its another addition. He's got range to 12-20 feet easy now, and its expanding to the 3 point line, as he's hit a few corner 3s in the playoffs alone.

I'm looking foward to next season and beyond (honestly, I still think they were slightly ahead of schedule this season and were more expecting a title run next year and the year after). A lineup of KD, Russ, Ibaka, Adams, and a decent 2 guard is pretty solid. Even if they could find an MLE center and move Perk, it would improve more and they could potentially keep Adams w/ the bench. He keeps improving and has well surpasses my expectations. As for GSW and wanting to trade him, I personally hope he's close to off the table, and if not, it better be a crazy package coming back (considering they can't trade picks at least this year).

Edit: Shouldn't say he would be off the table, but close, as it seems he's the only young guy Brooks is impressed enough to give consistent minutes, and looks to fit really well with the team. At his age, potential is crazy high.

[comingbacktousa]

Is serge ibaka as good offensively as Chris Bosh? Bosh has a 19 ppg career average.

Ibaka is not as good offensively as Chris Bosh, but given their current role's they are pretty much the same these last 2 years. Bosh isn't asked to be 19 ppg scorer nor a first option. He is a 16 point scorer and a 3rd option, doing the exact same thing Ibaka is being asked to do...knock down open jumpers. Can Bosh do more than that? Yes, but thats not what his current role is nor what he is asked to do.

I'm not suggesting OKC try to post up or have Ibaka create as much as Bosh was in Toronto, but going away from looking to set him up for those shots like they have been doing all season long is dumb. He has been knocking down his shots, like its his job to do but Westbrook and Durant have been more interested in taking turns playing hero-ball.

[spearsy23]

Is serge ibaka as good offensively as Chris Bosh? Bosh has a 19 ppg career average.

Ibaka is not as good offensively as Chris Bosh, but given their current role's they are pretty much the same these last 2 years. Bosh isn't asked to be 19 ppg scorer nor a first option. He is a 16 point scorer and a 3rd option, doing the exact same thing Ibaka is being asked to do...knock down open jumpers. Can Bosh do more than that? Yes, but thats not what his current role is nor what he is asked to do.

I'm not suggesting OKC try to post up or have Ibaka create as much as Bosh was in Toronto, but going away from looking to set him up for those shots like they have been doing all season long is dumb. He has been knocking down his shots, like its his job to do but Westbrook and Durant have been more interested in taking turns playing hero-ball.

We're talking about two separate things, he certainly should be being used more in the playoffs, but that doesn't mean he's a 20 ppg guy.

[bondom34]

Don't know why, but in my joy, I forgot this thread. So back to the original topic, Adams makin history!

http://bkref.com/tiny/qCIVq

[Space Dracula]

Chris Bosh is and was eminently more skilled and natural with the ball in his hands than Ibaka ever was or likely will be. That's a huge difference. Beginning with his third season in the league, Bosh was carrying a 25%+ USG every year until he went to Miami. He had relatively low TOV% and very high scoring efficiency. In that span, he was assisted on 53.4% of his 2pt FGM.

Conversely, Ibaka has been assisted on 70% of his FGM, a number that has been rising as his involvement in the offense has increased. A vast majority of Ibaka's offensive productivity, probably well over 85% of it, is created for him by others or created via offensive rebounding. This is in contrast to a player like Bosh, who from his third season consistently displayed an ability to efficiently create offense for himself. Bosh is a lot closer in skillset to Kevin Durant than he is to Ibaka in this respect.

What this means re: Ibaka and usage is that Ibaka's usage in the playoffs cannot be increased organically. Someone like Bosh, you can just feed him the ball and let him operate. Ibaka has to be set up via dribble penetration, PnR, etc. and due to his poor passing ability and limited court awareness, running a play for Ibaka usually either ends in an Ibaka FGA, Ibaka turnover, or otherwise. Again, in contrast to Bosh who quickly developed the ability to make reads as plays developed and designed plays could 'branch' off from him.

That's the intrinsic problem with Ibaka's game offensively. Increasing his usage requires a concerted effort by his teammates to put him in a position to do so ... which they should probably do more of in the fourth quarter of games, but his usage will always be limited by this so long as he doesn't make some dramatic developments as a player.

[Space Dracula]

Don't know why, but in my joy, I forgot this thread. So back to the original topic, Adams makin history!

http://bkref.com/tiny/qCIVq

The points and rebounds are nice but I was most impressed with Adams' defense in the PnR in Game 6. His development is reminiscent of rookie Ibaka, and rookie Ibaka benefited most playing next to Nick Collison.

I'm excited for the offseason to see how Adams develops from here. Wide range of possibilities.

[Space Dracula]

This sentence is the only place you're wrong, but it's a big place to be wrong. Ibaka is not good out of the triple threat, he has very poor handles, is not a good passer, and doesn't recognize where help defense comes from. Those three things are necessary to have an offense ran through you when you have no semblance of a post game. Every NBA player can score 20 if you give them 25 shots, but to call a guy a 20 ppg game generally indicates he could do it on a good team. If any team made ibaka their primary scorer (and he'd have to be to score 20/night) they would be a sub 30 win team.

Edit: that's not to say he can't become one, the guy has shown every bit as much improvement since coming into the league as anyone in OKC has, and that speaks volumes about how hard he works.

That also applied to Bosh in Toronto. And Ibaka certainly doesn't have good handles, but it's not like you're going to be dancing around shaking your man off in the triple threat. Don't think anyone would claim Zach Randolph to be a good dribbler and yet he's really great at operating in the triple threat.

Not saying handles isn't a part of it, but it's not as consequential as you'd think.

Although Ibaka's weird medium center of gravity does hinder him from possessing great handles.

Zach Randolph has a terrific handle for the type of player he is.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boXUrpOX500[/youtube]

Can you see Serge Ibaka making this play? Bosh probably could.

[HeartSouloma]