2018 Offseason Thread

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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3101 » by slick_watts » Thu Aug 9, 2018 7:23 pm

alex abrinese sucks. he's a daequan cook level role player. even past his prime kyle korver is way better than him.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3102 » by getrichordie » Thu Aug 9, 2018 9:43 pm

NYG wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
retrobro90 wrote:
Nah Abrines gives us most of that utility while being much younger. Both he and Singler are expiring and we shouldn't be in the market of trading away more future seconds after the summer we just had.


Fair point. Yeah, given Roberson's uncertain future, I think you have to retain Abrines.



There’s also a luxury tax savings involved too in this deal. Almost $14 Million


Did not realize this. That certainly changes things. In fact, as dumb as it makes me look, I'm pretty sure I posted this exact same trade offer or something close to it and it didn't get any love lol.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3103 » by kdthunderup » Thu Aug 9, 2018 9:49 pm

getrichordie wrote:Does anyone expect Abrines to improve going into his 3rd year in the NBA or is he is what he is at this point? With a ton of wings on the roster now, are we expecting Abrines to stay in his role or will we see his minutes increase?

I see Ferguson taking Abrines's minutes if he doesn't improve going into this season.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3104 » by spearsy23 » Thu Aug 9, 2018 9:50 pm

retrobro90 wrote:
NYG wrote:Neutral fan, would you trade Abrines, Singler and two 2nds for Kyle Korver?


Nah Abrines gives us most of that utility while being much younger. Both he and Singler are expiring and we shouldn't be in the market of trading away more future seconds after the summer we just had.

If I could dump singler and abrines for two seconds i'd be all over it, getting korver back is gravy.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3105 » by NYG » Thu Aug 9, 2018 10:11 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
retrobro90 wrote:
NYG wrote:Neutral fan, would you trade Abrines, Singler and two 2nds for Kyle Korver?


Nah Abrines gives us most of that utility while being much younger. Both he and Singler are expiring and we shouldn't be in the market of trading away more future seconds after the summer we just had.

If I could dump singler and abrines for two seconds i'd be all over it, getting korver back is gravy.


Would keeping the seconds and trade the pair of playera (again no picks and lux savings) for Lance Thomas make any sense?
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3106 » by Atomic Punk » Thu Aug 9, 2018 10:52 pm

NYG wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:
retrobro90 wrote:
Nah Abrines gives us most of that utility while being much younger. Both he and Singler are expiring and we shouldn't be in the market of trading away more future seconds after the summer we just had.

If I could dump singler and abrines for two seconds i'd be all over it, getting korver back is gravy.


Would keeping the seconds and trade the pair of playera (again no picks and lux savings) for Lance Thomas make any sense?


Maybe, but Korver fills a more immediate need. BTW: I couldn’t care less about the future SRP’s. This team is in win now mode.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3107 » by hardenASG13 » Thu Aug 9, 2018 11:28 pm

kdthunderup wrote:
getrichordie wrote:Does anyone expect Abrines to improve going into his 3rd year in the NBA or is he is what he is at this point? With a ton of wings on the roster now, are we expecting Abrines to stay in his role or will we see his minutes increase?

I see Ferguson taking Abrines's minutes if he doesn't improve going into this season.


Definately a make or break year for abrines, he's gotta become alot more reliable. I thought his defense looked better at the end of last season, it would really elevate the bench if he and Ferguson could develop into solid rotation level players. I'm hoping 1 can, gotta think Ferguson has been working on attacking the basket/handle in the offseason.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3108 » by Atomic Punk » Thu Aug 9, 2018 11:43 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:
getrichordie wrote:Does anyone expect Abrines to improve going into his 3rd year in the NBA or is he is what he is at this point? With a ton of wings on the roster now, are we expecting Abrines to stay in his role or will we see his minutes increase?

I see Ferguson taking Abrines's minutes if he doesn't improve going into this season.


Definately a make or break year for abrines, he's gotta become alot more reliable. I thought his defense looked better at the end of last season, it would really elevate the bench if he and Ferguson could develop into solid rotation level players. I'm hoping 1 can, gotta think Ferguson has been working on attacking the basket/handle in the offseason.


I thought his defense, or at least his effort on D looked better as the season progressed. Still.....
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3109 » by spearsy23 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:01 am

NYG wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:
retrobro90 wrote:
Nah Abrines gives us most of that utility while being much younger. Both he and Singler are expiring and we shouldn't be in the market of trading away more future seconds after the summer we just had.

If I could dump singler and abrines for two seconds i'd be all over it, getting korver back is gravy.


Would keeping the seconds and trade the pair of playera (again no picks and lux savings) for Lance Thomas make any sense?

No. Abrines is better, younger, and cheaper.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3110 » by thekaoswithin » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:18 am

Why are we paying to trade expirings? Everyone wants an expiring contract, it's not a negative asset that we should be paying to get out of.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3111 » by retrobro90 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:26 am

I think Abrines' improvement is understated by guys like Lowe and Royce. He started the year coming off an injury from Eurobasket then got healthy and started showing real feel on defense. And not just improved quickness from getting healthy but getting into the lane with good timing for charges/verticality. That's something our collection of teenagers really doesn't know how to do but Roberson and Abrines actually have some legitimate help instincts. Alex will always have trouble containing stronger perimeter players no matter how hard he hits the weight room but I like how reliable he is doing the little things and how confident he is in his role. Korver is going to be 38 on his current contract and everyone still has rose colored glasses from the playoffs when he was (for stretches) the only other Cavalier who could put the ball in the basket. The Warriors completely neutralized Korver in the finals. He hit one shot through 4 games. Is Alex better than that? Maybe/maybe not but it's not a sure enough bet for it to be worth $5mil and two future seconds when our liquid asset warchest is near empty. Not to mention all our additions are meant to play young and fast. Doesn't improve the ceiling of this team enough and tightens their already tight handcuffs around their flexibility.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3112 » by getrichordie » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:33 am

retrobro90 wrote:I think Abrines' improvement is understated by guys like Lowe and Royce. He started the year coming off an injury from Eurobasket then got healthy and started showing real feel on defense. And not just improved quickness from getting healthy but getting into the lane with good timing for charges/verticality. That's something our collection of teenagers really doesn't know how to do but Roberson and Abrines actually have some legitimate help instincts. Alex will always have trouble containing stronger perimeter players no matter how hard he hits the weight room but I like how reliable he is doing the little things and how confident he is in his role. Korver is going to be 38 on his current contract and everyone still has rose colored glasses from the playoffs when he was (for stretches) the only other Cavalier who could put the ball in the basket. The Warriors completely neutralized Korver in the finals. He hit one shot through 4 games. Is Alex better than that? Maybe/maybe not but it's not a sure enough bet for it to be worth $5mil and two future seconds when our liquid asset warchest is near empty. Not to mention all our additions are meant to play young and fast. Doesn't improve the ceiling of this team enough and tightens their already tight handcuffs around their flexibility.


True. Those are fair points.

Korver wouldn't fit our style of play. Yeah, he can stretch the floor, but I guarantee Alex can get up and down the floor faster and provide better help defense. I'll take the young Abrines over Korver in terms of fit. I don't want a 38 y/o on the team unless it is for locker room reasons which we do not need. The only reason I would make this trade is if OKC's owners are really forcing Presti to cut some cost, but I doubt that. In fact, I'd say there are better ways to cut cost.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3113 » by bondom34 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:18 am

Korver is a much better defender than Abrines. And he's not good, but he's much better.

And when he was on court the Cavs played at a pace faster than what OKC did with Russ on court, he can run too. Abrines ceiling in a few years might be old Korver.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3114 » by spearsy23 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:53 pm

thekaoswithin wrote:Why are we paying to trade expirings? Everyone wants an expiring contract, it's not a negative asset that we should be paying to get out of.

Because it saves 15 million dollars?
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3115 » by Pillendreher » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:06 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
thekaoswithin wrote:Why are we paying to trade expirings? Everyone wants an expiring contract, it's not a negative asset that we should be paying to get out of.

Because it saves 15 million dollars?


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"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3116 » by retrobro90 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:13 pm

bondom34 wrote:Korver is a much better defender than Abrines. And he's not good, but he's much better.

And when he was on court the Cavs played at a pace faster than what OKC did with Russ on court, he can run too. Abrines ceiling in a few years might be old Korver.


Korver is bigger than Abrines. Both are a liability as you've noted. The difference between their impact is hardly as massive as you say though and Abrines ended the season much better on D than he started. Honestly thought he did better on D Mitchell in the playoffs than Brewer/Russ etc. Let's also consider again Kyle will be 37 next year.

I'd rather compare lineup data with Russ without Melo rather than Korver + Bron. Obviously neither Korver nor Abrines is some slow footed 7 footer but that stat makes it sound like Kyle pushes the pace more than Westbrook which is obviously not the case.

Outside of these points there's also the fact that we're out our 2019 and potentially 2022-2025 SRPs as of our transactions this summer. If we trade two future 2nds they'd be 2020 and 2021 leaving us with 7 straight years of owed SRPs and a ton of salary wrapped up. Not ideal for a small market team with no future cap room.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3117 » by bondom34 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:16 pm

retrobro90 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Korver is a much better defender than Abrines. And he's not good, but he's much better.

And when he was on court the Cavs played at a pace faster than what OKC did with Russ on court, he can run too. Abrines ceiling in a few years might be old Korver.


Korver is bigger than Abrines. Both are a liability as you've noted. The difference between their impact is hardly as massive as you say though and Abrines ended the season much better on D than he started. Honestly thought he did better on D Mitchell in the playoffs than Brewer/Russ etc. Let's also consider again Kyle will be 37 next year.

I'd rather compare lineup data with Russ without Melo rather than Korver + Bron. Obviously neither Korver nor Abrines is some slow footed 7 footer but that stat makes it sound like Kyle pushes the pace more than Westbrook which is obviously not the case.

Outside of these points there's also the fact that we're out our 2019 and potentially 2022-2025 SRPs as of our transactions this summer. If we trade two future 2nds they'd be 2020 and 2021 leaving us with 7 straight years of owed SRPs and a ton of salary wrapped up. Not ideal for a small market team with no future cap room.

Russ/Abrines and no Melo: 97.4 pace

Korver and Lebron: 96.0

So still not a big gap, and Korver can run. He's still a beter defender right now, and AA at his peak might be that good not to mention the shooting.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3118 » by retrobro90 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:22 pm

bondom34 wrote:
retrobro90 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Korver is a much better defender than Abrines. And he's not good, but he's much better.

And when he was on court the Cavs played at a pace faster than what OKC did with Russ on court, he can run too. Abrines ceiling in a few years might be old Korver.


Korver is bigger than Abrines. Both are a liability as you've noted. The difference between their impact is hardly as massive as you say though and Abrines ended the season much better on D than he started. Honestly thought he did better on D Mitchell in the playoffs than Brewer/Russ etc. Let's also consider again Kyle will be 37 next year.

I'd rather compare lineup data with Russ without Melo rather than Korver + Bron. Obviously neither Korver nor Abrines is some slow footed 7 footer but that stat makes it sound like Kyle pushes the pace more than Westbrook which is obviously not the case.

Outside of these points there's also the fact that we're out our 2019 and potentially 2022-2025 SRPs as of our transactions this summer. If we trade two future 2nds they'd be 2020 and 2021 leaving us with 7 straight years of owed SRPs and a ton of salary wrapped up. Not ideal for a small market team with no future cap room.

Russ/Abrines and no Melo: 97.4 pace

Korver and Lebron: 96.0

So still not a big gap, and Korver can run. He's still a beter defender right now, and AA at his peak might be that good not to mention the shooting.


For sure. That's a fair point about Korver's transition play. I just know OKC had a massive difference in pace with and without Melo this past season so I knew it was skewed. I stand by the fact that this proposed trade is not something OKC should do to help them marginally in the near term.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3119 » by Kizz Fastfists » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:37 pm

I just took the stat to mean that Korver wouldn't slow OKC down. I don't think anyone expects him to be the reason for it speeding up.
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Re: 2018 Offseason Thread 

Post#3120 » by retrobro90 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:51 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:I just took the stat to mean that Korver wouldn't slow OKC down. I don't think anyone expects him to be the reason for it speeding up.


Agreed, I mentioned that based on dom's phrasing initially which I misinterpreted. However, no matter how many underwater boulders Korver moves in the offseason (if you're familiar with his wild conditioning exercises) he's still not going to defeat father time in the end. 37 year old Korver who didn't do much against the switch heavy western conference defense doesn't entice me enough to give them our only other good floor spacing wing (not named Paul George) and two 2nds just to clear the difference on Singler's expiring. ~$3mil in salary. Not sure what that is in repeater tax.

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