12/14 | G27: Oklahoma City Thunder at Denver Nuggets - 9PM CST

[getrichordie]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

Yeah, it’s fine. Let’s run offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump in close game situations. That makes a lot of sense.

If we did that and Abrines and Patterson continue to miss, the narrative would change to, “Why is Billy Donovan running offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump? He should’ve just given Schroder the ball; at least he can score!”

Also, the bench is not THE problem.

It’s FT-shooting, 3P-shooting, shooting, and you guessed it, more shooting. And turnovers.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that, in general, there is a direct correlation between bad shooting and high turnovers in the NBA.


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[spearsy23]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

There's blame on both sides, Schroder needs to look for them, but Jesus Christ take some **** initiative and quit waiting for someone else to get you a wide open look before you even consider shooting. It's not like they're only touching the ball once per game, instead they're just playing hot potato until it gets back to schroder.

[SecondTake]

Patterson already forgot last year

yeah, no. patterson shot a 38.6% from three last season, the 2nd highest percentage of his career. there's no reason to expect he won't get back to the 36-38% range if he continues to get shot attempts. he's 29 years old. the best way to ensure he does not get there is to not get him shots.

patterson has attempted 75 threes this year. in the four prior seasons he shot 37%+ on 1000+ attempts. he should be shooting more. it's not likely he'll shoot < 30% from three in the long run.

Why don't we just blame the guys that are bad, instead of deflecting on Shroder?

dennis schroder was billed as a backup point guard who could carry the bench. he is not carrying the bench. the bench sucks. he's being paid $15.5mm and is owed two more years at that amount. plus the thunder gave up a pick to get him. if he can't carry a bench to even an average looking offense... what's the point?

patterson and abrines have started the season slow shooting the ball. that doesn't mean they will continue to do so. both have hundreds, and in patterson's case 1000+, attempts in the last few seasons shooting at a decent clip. schroder is going to solve nothing by ball hogging and ignoring those guys. but that's what he is doing, essentially.

I mean this team has zero spacing, and you're asking for a driving PG to do something about it. If he had some guys that could make threes at a high school level he'd be runaway 6th man of the year.

raymond felton had no problem doing it. why is it so hard for dennis schroder? it's because he's not a great play maker. that was his m.o. in atlanta. he likes to iso and he likes to create his own shot and throw fancy lobs around.

a great way to ensure the team will continue to struggle offensively in that bench unit is to not get shot attempts for the guys who have proven to be reliable in the recent past. and that's what schroder is doing. he sucks. plain and simple.

Pat had like 2 attempts per game last year. He made like three quarters of one on average and averaged under 4 points. He's now averaging 4.2. I mean I don't see the point of picking apart percentages of a guy averaging under 4 points a game with terrible defense. He's getting MORE attempts than he did last year, hes just making way less of them. And they arent contested, the guy is bricking every open 3 he gets. Shroder is giving him the ball as much as Felton did, which isnt much, but it's more than he deserves.

...And what do you mean Felton had no problem "doing it"? Doing what exactly? He was arguably the worst backup PG in the NBA. He's unplayable. If you mean he had no trouble eating and losing the ball in traffic, I guess you're right. Just look at every metric of Felton vs Shroder, and Shroder is literally blowing Felton out of the water in every category from last year. The rest of the bench has regressed badly, in Pat and Abrines. That's not Shroders fault. If we had Felton manning the bench again this year it would be a much bigger disaster. We're talking of a backup PG that's averaging 17-5-5 with a 3pt % and FT% that's better than team average, on a team that is mainly suffering because of poor bench play, poor 3pt shooting and poor ft shooting. Shroder is the only guy plugging the hole as best he can in all three of those categories.

[getrichordie]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

There's blame on both sides, Schroder needs to look for them, but Jesus Christ take some **** initiative and quit waiting for someone else to get you a wide open look before you even consider shooting. It's not like they're only touching the ball once per game, instead they're just playing hot potato until it gets back to schroder.

Exactly. No one can really drive outside of Schroder besides Diallo on second unit. This is why Billy is throwing George and Westbrook into that second unit with Schroder.


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[getrichordie]

Patterson already forgot last year

yeah, no. patterson shot a 38.6% from three last season, the 2nd highest percentage of his career. there's no reason to expect he won't get back to the 36-38% range if he continues to get shot attempts. he's 29 years old. the best way to ensure he does not get there is to not get him shots.

patterson has attempted 75 threes this year. in the four prior seasons he shot 37%+ on 1000+ attempts. he should be shooting more. it's not likely he'll shoot < 30% from three in the long run.

Why don't we just blame the guys that are bad, instead of deflecting on Shroder?

dennis schroder was billed as a backup point guard who could carry the bench. he is not carrying the bench. the bench sucks. he's being paid $15.5mm and is owed two more years at that amount. plus the thunder gave up a pick to get him. if he can't carry a bench to even an average looking offense... what's the point?

patterson and abrines have started the season slow shooting the ball. that doesn't mean they will continue to do so. both have hundreds, and in patterson's case 1000+, attempts in the last few seasons shooting at a decent clip. schroder is going to solve nothing by ball hogging and ignoring those guys. but that's what he is doing, essentially.

I mean this team has zero spacing, and you're asking for a driving PG to do something about it. If he had some guys that could make threes at a high school level he'd be runaway 6th man of the year.

raymond felton had no problem doing it. why is it so hard for dennis schroder? it's because he's not a great play maker. that was his m.o. in atlanta. he likes to iso and he likes to create his own shot and throw fancy lobs around.

a great way to ensure the team will continue to struggle offensively in that bench unit is to not get shot attempts for the guys who have proven to be reliable in the recent past. and that's what schroder is doing. he sucks. plain and simple.

Pat had like 2 attempts per game last year. He made like three quarters of one on average and averaged under 4 points. He's now averaging 4.2. I mean I don't see the point of picking apart percentages of a guy averaging under 4 points a game with terrible defense. He's getting MORE attempts than he did last year, hes just making way less of them. And they arent contested, the guy is bricking every open 3 he gets. Shroder is giving him the ball as much as Felton did, which isnt much, but it's more than he deserves.

...And what do you mean Felton had no problem "doing it"? Doing what exactly? He was arguably the worst backup PG in the NBA. He's unplayable. If you mean he had no trouble eating and losing the ball in traffic, I guess you're right. Just look at every metric of Felton vs Shroder, and Shroder is literally blowing Felton out of the water in every category from last year. The rest of the bench has regressed badly, in Pat and Abrines. That's not Shroders fault. If we had Felton manning the bench again this year it would be a much bigger disaster. We're talking of a backup PG that's averaging 17-5-5 with a 3pt % and FT% that's better than team average, on a team that is mainly suffering because of poor bench play, poor 3pt shooting and poor ft shooting. Shroder is the only guy plugging the hole as best he can in all three of those categories.

Hey, I like this guy. He gets it. I’m really starting to think that a lot of takes on this board are from people who are just trying to be contrarian for the sake of contrarianism.


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[Dn4sty]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

There's blame on both sides, Schroder needs to look for them, but Jesus Christ take some **** initiative and quit waiting for someone else to get you a wide open look before you even consider shooting. It's not like they're only touching the ball once per game, instead they're just playing hot potato until it gets back to schroder.

I agree. When I watch guys like Redick run off screens and then watch Abrines stand around, I want to punch my television.

[getrichordie]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

There's blame on both sides, Schroder needs to look for them, but Jesus Christ take some **** initiative and quit waiting for someone else to get you a wide open look before you even consider shooting. It's not like they're only touching the ball once per game, instead they're just playing hot potato until it gets back to schroder.

I agree. When I watch guys like Redick run off screens and then watch Abrines stand around, I want to punch my television.

While I wish Abrines was Redick, he isn’t. There’s only a handful of guys in the league that have that Korver-esque skillset. Abrines has shown he can do a little bit of that, but he’s certainly not on that level.


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[Dn4sty]

There's blame on both sides, Schroder needs to look for them, but Jesus Christ take some **** initiative and quit waiting for someone else to get you a wide open look before you even consider shooting. It's not like they're only touching the ball once per game, instead they're just playing hot potato until it gets back to schroder.

I agree. When I watch guys like Redick run off screens and then watch Abrines stand around, I want to punch my television.

While I wish Abrines was Redick, he isn’t. There’s only a handful of guys in the league that have that Korver-esque skillset. Abrines has shown he can do a little bit of that, but he’s certainly not on that level.


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Sure but there is middle ground between running off screens like Reddick/Korver and standing around doing nothing.

[spearsy23]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

Yeah, it’s fine. Let’s run offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump in close game situations. That makes a lot of sense.

If we did that and Abrines and Patterson continue to miss, the narrative would change to, “Why is Billy Donovan running offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump? He should’ve just given Schroder the ball; at least he can score!”

Also, the bench is not THE problem.

It’s FT-shooting, 3P-shooting, shooting, and you guessed it, more shooting. And turnovers.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that, in general, there is a direct correlation between bad shooting and high turnovers in the NBA.


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Seeing you take this stance is.... Interesting, to say the least. You've been calling for westbrook's head the last three years based on his play style, but now that it's Schroder it's not his fault?

[SecondTake]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

Pat cant be salvaged. He hasn't averaged better than 7 points in 4 seasons as a "shooter". He plays little defense, can't rebound and seems to have no idea what he's doing on the court. To me he looks like Hibert did during his tailspin of mental decline, and I doubt he lasts much longer in the league if he doesnt get his head right.

[Dn4sty]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

Pat cant be salvaged. He hasn't averaged better than 7 points in 4 seasons as a "shooter". He plays little defense, can't rebound and seems to have no idea what he's doing on the court. To me he looks like Hibert did during his tailspin of mental decline, and I doubt he lasts much longer in the league if he doesnt get his head right.

I do think 2Pat has gotten himself to a place where he might be done mentally. I wonder if he can snap back out of it. As far as the rest of your post, it’s not worth engaging

[getrichordie]

I think that Schroder doesn’t currently trust any of those guys with him. He obviously should, but the lack of trust has resulted in not even trying to run offense for them. Patterson and Abrines have been terrible, but they really haven’t been given a lot of opportunities to get better.

I think both would in time begin to return to closer to normal levels, although I think 2Pat issues are much much deeper than Abrines. 2Pat can’t rebound, can’t finish at the rim, and has some of the worst hands I’ve ever seen. Abrines just seems to be in a severe shooting slump

Yeah, it’s fine. Let’s run offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump in close game situations. That makes a lot of sense.

If we did that and Abrines and Patterson continue to miss, the narrative would change to, “Why is Billy Donovan running offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump? He should’ve just given Schroder the ball; at least he can score!”

Also, the bench is not THE problem.

It’s FT-shooting, 3P-shooting, shooting, and you guessed it, more shooting. And turnovers.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that, in general, there is a direct correlation between bad shooting and high turnovers in the NBA.


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Seeing you take this stance is.... Interesting, to say the least. You've been calling for westbrook's head the last three years based on his play style, but now that it's Schroder it's not his fault?

I trust Schroder’s consistency and approach to the game more-so than Westbrook’s. I just think he is a smarter player, albeit not as athletic as Westbrook.

I thought that Westbrook’s MVP season that really showed what a one-man show he can be and while it is really to fun to watch, it’s just not sustainable. It’s not Westbrook’s fault that Presti couldn’t get him more shooting, but at the same time, I always came away with the feeling that Westbrook should start trusting his teammates a little more.

It’s no coincidence that Schroder has become a mini-Westbrook against better defenses. We still lack shooting and to maximize a slashing/scoring point’s skillset, you need shooters. James is a pretty great example of this but he gets away with a lot more because of his crazy athleticism. And he has crazy good passing skills and vision thanks to his big hands and height.


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[spearsy23]

Yeah, it’s fine. Let’s run offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump in close game situations. That makes a lot of sense.

If we did that and Abrines and Patterson continue to miss, the narrative would change to, “Why is Billy Donovan running offense through 2 guys in a shooting slump? He should’ve just given Schroder the ball; at least he can score!”

Also, the bench is not THE problem.

It’s FT-shooting, 3P-shooting, shooting, and you guessed it, more shooting. And turnovers.

I’d bet my bottom dollar that, in general, there is a direct correlation between bad shooting and high turnovers in the NBA.


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Seeing you take this stance is.... Interesting, to say the least. You've been calling for westbrook's head the last three years based on his play style, but now that it's Schroder it's not his fault?

I trust Schroder’s consistency and approach to the game more-so than Westbrook’s. I just think he is a smarter player, albeit not as athletic as Westbrook.

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

[getrichordie]

Seeing you take this stance is.... Interesting, to say the least. You've been calling for westbrook's head the last three years based on his play style, but now that it's Schroder it's not his fault?

I trust Schroder’s consistency and approach to the game more-so than Westbrook’s. I just think he is a smarter player, albeit not as athletic as Westbrook.

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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[slick_watts]

Pat had like 2 attempts per game last year. He made like three quarters of one on average and averaged under 4 points. He's now averaging 4.2. I mean I don't see the point of picking apart percentages of a guy averaging under 4 points a game with terrible defense. He's getting MORE attempts than he did last year, hes just making way less of them. And they arent contested, the guy is bricking every open 3 he gets. Shroder is giving him the ball as much as Felton did, which isnt much, but it's more than he deserves.

you don't see the point of picking apart percentages? you're the one that claimed 'that happened' for patterson last season, a year where pat shot 38.6% from three which would be perfectly acceptable.

he's making less of them this year, yes. how do we get patrick patterson back to shooting 38% from three? the answer is not to stop getting patrick patterson jump shots, is it?

you play this off like it's meaningless, but adjusting patrick patterson's 3pt% to his career # would on its own improve our offense from 101pp100 to 103.1pp100 in the minutes he has played. the question remains why there is reason to believe that he can suddenly not shoot? you claim he was bad last year, but he was still able to shoot last year. i'll wait.

...And what do you mean Felton had no problem "doing it"? Doing what exactly?

in games westbrook has played this year, the bench units with schroder (i.e. westbrook out) haven't performed much better than the bench units with felton did last season collectively. those units extracted plenty of value from players like abrines and patterson. why isn't schroder?

i'm not saying felton is better than schroder. i'm saying that schroder hasn't had any meaningful impact on the bench units so far. they aren't much better than felton bench units last year.

The rest of the bench has regressed badly, in Pat and Abrines. That's not Shroders fault.

it might be, it might not be. it's too soon to tell. incidentally, george also shoots much worse from three in bench units with schroder. pretty much everyone shoots worse from three in those units except for schroder himself.

but it's way, way, way too early to make judgments on either abrines or patterson as shooters, which is what it seems schroder has done lately (last 1-2 weeks) freezing them out.

Shroder is the only guy plugging the hole as best he can in all three of those categories.

like a certain other former thunder player, schroder is known for putting up counting stats but not really having all that much of a positive impact. can you guess who that player was?

[spearsy23]

I trust Schroder’s consistency and approach to the game more-so than Westbrook’s. I just think he is a smarter player, albeit not as athletic as Westbrook.

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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Having stupid takes doesn't make you open minded. Listening to the evidence and basing your opinions on it does. Not that anyone with any sense needed proof that Westbrook is better at creating for his teammates, but we've literally watched this dumb*** take get exposed while you've doubled down.

[ThunderBolt]

I trust Schroder’s consistency and approach to the game more-so than Westbrook’s. I just think he is a smarter player, albeit not as athletic as Westbrook.

Yeah, this is dumb. We're literally watching schroder play like a worse ballhogging version of Russ who can't generate points for his teammates in any way.

You are so close-minded, just like so many other fans. Do you even understand what words mean?


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And yet you’re not open minded to the fact Dononvan bears any responsibility for the bench play? Schroder looks smooth so it hides some of mistakes. Royce says that Westbrook’s mistskes are louder than everyone else’s. Some, but not all of it, is due to russ playing so much faster/forceful. It doesn’t mean that schroder is playing well.

[spearsy23]

Pat had like 2 attempts per game last year. He made like three quarters of one on average and averaged under 4 points. He's now averaging 4.2. I mean I don't see the point of picking apart percentages of a guy averaging under 4 points a game with terrible defense. He's getting MORE attempts than he did last year, hes just making way less of them. And they arent contested, the guy is bricking every open 3 he gets. Shroder is giving him the ball as much as Felton did, which isnt much, but it's more than he deserves.

you don't see the point of picking apart percentages? you're the one that claimed 'that happened' for patterson last season, a year where pat shot 38.6% from three which would be perfectly acceptable.

he's making less of them this year, yes. how do we get patrick patterson back to shooting 38% from three? the answer is not to stop getting patrick patterson jump shots, is it?

you play this off like it's meaningless, but adjusting patrick patterson's 3pt% to his career # would on its own improve our offense from 101pp100 to 103.1pp100 in the minutes he has played. the question remains why there is reason to believe that he can suddenly not shoot? you claim he was bad last year, but he was still able to shoot last year. i'll wait.

...And what do you mean Felton had no problem "doing it"? Doing what exactly?

in games westbrook has played this year, the bench units with schroder (i.e. westbrook out) haven't performed much better than the bench units with felton did last season collectively. those units extracted plenty of value from players like abrines and patterson. why isn't schroder?

i'm not saying felton is better than schroder. i'm saying that schroder hasn't had any meaningful impact on the bench units so far. they aren't much better than felton bench units last year.

The rest of the bench has regressed badly, in Pat and Abrines. That's not Shroders fault.

it might be, it might not be. it's too soon to tell. incidentally, george also shoots much worse from three in bench units with schroder. pretty much everyone shoots worse from three in those units except for schroder himself.

but it's way, way, way too early to make judgments on either abrines or patterson as shooters, which is what it seems schroder has done lately (last 1-2 weeks) freezing them out.

Shroder is the only guy plugging the hole as best he can in all three of those categories.

like a certain other former thunder player, schroder is known for putting up counting stats but not really having all that much of a positive impact. can you guess who that player was?

Last time you posted the numbers wasn't the bench like +2/100 over last year?

[mxr2000]

i would like to know when we will gwt a chance to see Tyler Davis play with the Thunder? we need someone like him to get rebounds and to make his presence felt on the floor he can score too!

[slick_watts]

Pat had like 2 attempts per game last year. He made like three quarters of one on average and averaged under 4 points. He's now averaging 4.2. I mean I don't see the point of picking apart percentages of a guy averaging under 4 points a game with terrible defense. He's getting MORE attempts than he did last year, hes just making way less of them. And they arent contested, the guy is bricking every open 3 he gets. Shroder is giving him the ball as much as Felton did, which isnt much, but it's more than he deserves.

you don't see the point of picking apart percentages? you're the one that claimed 'that happened' for patterson last season, a year where pat shot 38.6% from three which would be perfectly acceptable.

he's making less of them this year, yes. how do we get patrick patterson back to shooting 38% from three? the answer is not to stop getting patrick patterson jump shots, is it?

you play this off like it's meaningless, but adjusting patrick patterson's 3pt% to his career # would on its own improve our offense from 101pp100 to 103.1pp100 in the minutes he has played. the question remains why there is reason to believe that he can suddenly not shoot? you claim he was bad last year, but he was still able to shoot last year. i'll wait.

...And what do you mean Felton had no problem "doing it"? Doing what exactly?

in games westbrook has played this year, the bench units with schroder (i.e. westbrook out) haven't performed much better than the bench units with felton did last season collectively. those units extracted plenty of value from players like abrines and patterson. why isn't schroder?

i'm not saying felton is better than schroder. i'm saying that schroder hasn't had any meaningful impact on the bench units so far. they aren't much better than felton bench units last year.

The rest of the bench has regressed badly, in Pat and Abrines. That's not Shroders fault.

it might be, it might not be. it's too soon to tell. incidentally, george also shoots much worse from three in bench units with schroder. pretty much everyone shoots worse from three in those units except for schroder himself.

but it's way, way, way too early to make judgments on either abrines or patterson as shooters, which is what it seems schroder has done lately (last 1-2 weeks) freezing them out.

Shroder is the only guy plugging the hole as best he can in all three of those categories.

like a certain other former thunder player, schroder is known for putting up counting stats but not really having all that much of a positive impact. can you guess who that player was?

Last time you posted the numbers wasn't the bench like +2/100 over last year?

closer to +1/100 now.

and the difference offensively is really what i guess is pertinent to this discussion in particular, which is nearly 10/100. defense has been far better. noel has been the driver of these units when they have been successful this year, not schroder, imo.