Billy Donovan

[Pillendreher]

Was that 2016 Serge > 2018 Melo. I stand by that,

But how can you discuss that with one side being unknown? We don't know how Anthony will play this season.

[spearsy23]

Was that 2016 Serge > 2018 Melo. I stand by that,

But how can you discuss that with one side being unknown? We don't know how Anthony will play this season.

The same way we know 2018 Tyson Chandler isn't better than 2016 demarcus cousins.

[Rotten Apple]

Except he doesn't. And it is a way of phrasing it to say he's not. Ibaka's net impact is much greater due to defense. I'll ask you if you believe what you're saying to ask on the player comparisons board.

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

Melo had a NTC along with Phil diminishing a potential return.

You saying Melo doesn't have "that much" ability tells me everything I need to know about your opinion of him.

Ibaka never had a greater impact, also defense is the most overrated thing ever these days. In that case a guy like Andre Roberson is more valuable than a guy like Kyrie Irving(another player people say doesn't play D or do much else)

Individual defense is overrated because team defense is much more important. But on RealGM guys like Melo, Harden, Irving, Westbrook don't get the same benefit of doubt regarding their defense.

Tell Ibaka to carry an offense night in and night out and I bet you he couldn't. I don't care how many shots he blocks(another overrated stat).

Point is Ibaka aint Melo, never was, never will be.

No he isn't. Hes better.

Offense isn't all of basketball. Its why Enes Kanter isn't as good as Steven Adams.

This my point. Melo does so much more than Enes Kanter to even use him as a comparison is ridiculous. Melo also plays defense better than given credit for. Y'all ran with a narrative and let it stick.

[spearsy23]

It is close currently. I still take Serge personally. But 16 Serge is by far better than 18 Melo.

I can agree that it may be close. Serge has been declining much more sharply than Melo though, and there's not a lot to suggest he's actually better.

[bondom34]

It is close currently. I still take Serge personally. But 16 Serge is by far better than 18 Melo.

I can agree that it may be close. Serge has been declining much more sharply than Melo though, and there's not a lot to suggest he's actually better.

His Raps play was much better. And hes still elite atvwhat he does. Close though

[bondom34]

Melo had a NTC along with Phil diminishing a potential return.

You saying Melo doesn't have "that much" ability tells me everything I need to know about your opinion of him.

Ibaka never had a greater impact, also defense is the most overrated thing ever these days. In that case a guy like Andre Roberson is more valuable than a guy like Kyrie Irving(another player people say doesn't play D or do much else)

Individual defense is overrated because team defense is much more important. But on RealGM guys like Melo, Harden, Irving, Westbrook don't get the same benefit of doubt regarding their defense.

Tell Ibaka to carry an offense night in and night out and I bet you he couldn't. I don't care how many shots he blocks(another overrated stat).

Point is Ibaka aint Melo, never was, never will be.

No he isn't. Hes better.

Offense isn't all of basketball. Its why Enes Kanter isn't as good as Steven Adams.

This my point. Melo does so much more than Enes Kanter to even use him as a comparison is ridiculous. Melo also plays defense better than given credit for. Y'all ran with a narrative and let it stick.

No, its a relative comparison. Enes is to Adams as Melo is to Serge. One is a good offensive player. One is better overall.

[Pillendreher]

Was that 2016 Serge > 2018 Melo. I stand by that,

But how can you discuss that with one side being unknown? We don't know how Anthony will play this season.

The same way we know 2018 Tyson Chandler isn't better than 2016 demarcus cousins.

2017-2018 Melo is in a vastly different situation compared to previous years tho. The circumstances around him changed greatly. If for the better or the worse will be interesting to see, but you can't just ignore that in your prediction.

[Pillendreher]

And hes still elite atvwhat he does.

That's just simply not true. Ibaka hasn't been elite at what he does for quite some time now. Dude peaked around 2012-2014 and his decline since then has been vast and significant.

[bondom34]

And hes still elite atvwhat he does.

That's just simply not true. Ibaka hasn't been elite at what he does for quite some time now. Dude peaked around 2012-2014 and his decline since then has been vast and significant.

2nd half of 2017 he was better. And more elite than Melo.

[spearsy23]

But how can you discuss that with one side being unknown? We don't know how Anthony will play this season.

The same way we know 2018 Tyson Chandler isn't better than 2016 demarcus cousins.

2017-2018 Melo is in a vastly different situation compared to previous years tho. The circumstances around him changed greatly. If for the better or the worse will be interesting to see, but you can't just ignore that in your prediction.

It's incredibly rare for a 33 year old to completely reinvent himself. Realistically best case scenario you're looking at an uptick in efficiency and better man defense playing against 4's. He's not going to be a better team defender at the 4 because he doesn't possess any rim protection skills, maybe his impact is better just by not having to guard the Lebrons of the league, but it's extremely unlikely to be positive.

I guess the point is that from what we know about Melo we can fairly accurately assess what his strengths and weaknesses are at this point in his career. So saying 'we don't know' is accurate in the sense that it's possible he defies the odds and suddenly becomes better at 33 than he was at 32/31/30, but it's even more likely he completely breaks down and we're dealing with a final year Kobe type player. I'm ignoring the extremes and assuming he will continue to be approximately the same guy he has been for the last few years.

[M2J]

[
Melo could get that, because EVERY team in the league was trying to offer him whatever he wanted a few years back. I'll let that fact speak for itself.

No. You're right. A few years back. Notpt today

Great point

Just like your argument being supported by what they got traded for

[M2J]

The same way we know 2018 Tyson Chandler isn't better than 2016 demarcus cousins.

2017-2018 Melo is in a vastly different situation compared to previous years tho. The circumstances around him changed greatly. If for the better or the worse will be interesting to see, but you can't just ignore that in your prediction.

It's incredibly rare for a 33 year old to completely reinvent himself. Realistically best case scenario you're looking at an uptick in efficiency and better man defense playing against 4's. He's not going to be a better team defender at the 4 because he doesn't possess any rim protection skills, maybe his impact is better just by not having to guard the Lebrons of the league, but it's extremely unlikely to be positive.

I guess the point is that from what we know about Melo we can fairly accurately assess what his strengths and weaknesses are at this point in his career. So saying 'we don't know' is accurate in the sense that it's possible he defies the odds and suddenly becomes better at 33 than he was at 32/31/30, but it's even more likely he completely breaks down and we're dealing with a final year Kobe type player. I'm ignoring the extremes and assuming he will continue to be approximately the same guy he has been for the last few years.

Fine point, but the regression is over blown. Essentially his numerical decline begins when he started playing in the Triangle, a slower-paced offense, with no real help, and playing less minutes per game in that rebuilding span of time. With less minutes per game recently, his numbers essentially match his time even in Denver with similar minutes per game. Yes his athleticism has declined. But he was less of a high-flying dunker well before he left Denver... in part because he says dunking hurts his hands and fingers and affects the shot. Since his athletic decline, he manages the game better, and is a better ball-handler and shooter, and he won the scoring title with this style.

It's easy to point at the fact that the Knicks have struggled the last three years with his "decline", but it was a well-publicized fact that they were going to struggle when he signed back on and trusted Phil. Last year was the All-in year with hey Derrick Rose that is a terrible fit for the triangle, and should be a Sixth Man of the Year candidate not a starting point guard, Courtney Lee, and Noah who didn't really even play and was awful when he did for 3y ears 70 + million.

[bondom34]

[
Melo could get that, because EVERY team in the league was trying to offer him whatever he wanted a few years back. I'll let that fact speak for itself.

No. You're right. A few years back. Notpt today

Great point

Just like your argument being supported by what they got traded for

So you think Melo is still that good? With what support? Because outside raw counting stats there is none.

[Dadouv47]

2016's Ibaka was clearly better than today's Melo. Ask Popovich what he thought about having to play against Ibaka

Still, I believe Carmelo MAY be a better fit with this current roster (we need offensive weapons with Roberson and no cupcake).

[Dadouv47]

It's really crazy that Ibaka has never been an All-star. He deserved it.

But to be fair to some arguments, the fact that Ibaka got a way better trade package has nothing to do with it. Ibaka is still young (even if on decline) and didn't have a no-trade clause, while Melo salary is more than the double of previous Ibaka contract and only accepted to join 2-3 teams with very limited trade assets.

[spearsy23]

It's really crazy that Ibaka has never been an All-star. He deserved it.

But to be fair to some arguments, the fact that Ibaka got a way better trade package has nothing to do with it. Ibaka is still young (even if on decline) and didn't have a no-trade clause, while Melo salary is more than the double of previous Ibaka contract and only accepted to join 2-3 teams with very limited trade assets.

Yeah, Ibaka literally got more in a trade than Paul George. I don't think that's a good measure for ability.

[bondom34]

It's really crazy that Ibaka has never been an All-star. He deserved it.

But to be fair to some arguments, the fact that Ibaka got a way better trade package has nothing to do with it. Ibaka is still young (even if on decline) and didn't have a no-trade clause, while Melo salary is more than the double of previous Ibaka contract and only accepted to join 2-3 teams with very limited trade assets.

Yeah, Ibaka literally got more in a trade than Paul George. I don't think that's a good measure for ability.

Yeah that was unfair on my part.

I will say however it does show a bit of what GMs think he's worth. Even with the NTC Melo didn't get more than a cap dump. Either way, if he had more value he'd have gotten some value.

[sleestak33]

2016's Ibaka was clearly better than today's Melo. Ask Popovich what he thought about having to play against Ibaka

Still, I believe Carmelo MAY be a better fit with this current roster (we need offensive weapons with Roberson and no cupcake).

Dude are you kidding me? Ibaka isn't on the same planet as Carmelo Anthony. He literally averages about half the points Carmelo has for his entire career and Carmelo is an all star. Ibaka is a nice player but his inability to create his own offense and complete lack of any type of a post game whatsoever along with his penchant for going long periods of time in games where he just disappears completely eliminates him from any type of legitimate comparison with an all star like Anthony.

[slick_watts]

2016's Ibaka was clearly better than today's Melo. Ask Popovich what he thought about having to play against Ibaka

Still, I believe Carmelo MAY be a better fit with this current roster (we need offensive weapons with Roberson and no cupcake).

Dude are you kidding me? Ibaka isn't on the same planet as Carmelo Anthony. He literally averages about half the points Carmelo has for his entire career and Carmelo is an all star. Ibaka is a nice player but his inability to create his own offense and complete lack of any type of a post game whatsoever along with his penchant for going long periods of time in games where he just disappears completely eliminates him from any type of legitimate comparison with an all star like Anthony.

do you value defense and offense equally?

[hardenASG13]

2016's Ibaka was clearly better than today's Melo. Ask Popovich what he thought about having to play against Ibaka

Still, I believe Carmelo MAY be a better fit with this current roster (we need offensive weapons with Roberson and no cupcake).

Dude are you kidding me? Ibaka isn't on the same planet as Carmelo Anthony. He literally averages about half the points Carmelo has for his entire career and Carmelo is an all star. Ibaka is a nice player but his inability to create his own offense and complete lack of any type of a post game whatsoever along with his penchant for going long periods of time in games where he just disappears completely eliminates him from any type of legitimate comparison with an all star like Anthony.

do you value defense and offense equally?

Nobody who understands basketball does.....certainly not the guys writing the checks or drafting the players, though who knows? Next year's draft class is supposed to be really good, maybe it will be alot of defensive studs with limited offensive games!