11/23 | G18: Charlotte Hornets at Oklahoma City Thunder - 7PM CST

[spearsy23]

I don't think it's a surprise Felton played last night with schroder starting at sg.

Donovan staggered Schröder though. And he was on the floor anyway. He basically played Felton over TLC in said 4th quarter.

Wasn't TLC awful in his minutes though? I didn't get to watch more than snippets last night.

[slick_watts]

This was the first game Schroder and Westbrook started together and while it's going to take awhile it's clear this is the way to go just like I said in a previous post stating that this is the only way OKC has any chance of competing for a championship. They're obviously going to need to be together on the court for 30+ minutes per game for that to happen and the great thing about it is it should let Russ conserve more energy for defense not having to handle the ball every time and also for late in games so he can do his thing. It also will eliminate some of the stupid shots he takes and turnovers with Schroder sharing ballhandling duties and will allow more guys touches since Schroder facilitates other guys better and is a more willing passer. Kind of a rough game overall but once they get rotations down it will all start to come together and I expect them to look a lot like Houston with Paul and Harden playing together. Oh and it's great to really see Jeremy Lamb starting and playing well because it locks down my opinion that it was an absolute joke to get rid of him and keep Roberson. Lamb is averaging 14 points, 5 rebounds 2 assists and shooting 36% on 3s and 93% on free throws and having a solid year. I can only imagine how good Lamb would be if they had given him the starting role the last 4 years that they foolishly gave to Roberson. Man I hate being right all the time! LMAO

this is your future, getrichordie. if you're not careful.

[slick_watts]

I don't think it's a surprise Felton played last night with schroder starting at sg.

Donovan staggered Schröder though. And he was on the floor anyway. He basically played Felton over TLC in said 4th quarter.

Wasn't TLC awful in his minutes though? I didn't get to watch more than snippets last night.

he was bad. with two wings injured, playing felton isn't the end of the world. it's just unfortunate. he's not touching the floor if either ferg or diallo are healthy.

[Pillendreher]

Read on Twitter

Cool picture.

Btw: This is something I'm glad to see:

Read on Twitter

Becoming less predictable is something this offense desperately needs. That's one of the ways Russ could help this team as an off-ball option.

[getrichordie]

but using the eye test

This right here is the problem. It's not that you use the eye test, we should all use the eye test to an extent, it's that
A) your eye test is really unreliable and you cut and run whenever it's refuted.

B) You're overly reactionary to tiny samples.

Can you provide an example of me being overly reactionary to tiny samples?


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[Atomic Punk]

but using the eye test

This right here is the problem. It's not that you use the eye test, we should all use the eye test to an extent, it's that
A) your eye test is really unreliable and you cut and run whenever it's refuted.

B) You're overly reactionary to tiny samples.

Can you provide an example of me being overly reactionary to tiny samples?


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Seriously? This thread alone is peppered with examples.

[Atomic Punk]

This right here is the problem. It's not that you use the eye test, we should all use the eye test to an extent, it's that
A) your eye test is really unreliable and you cut and run whenever it's refuted.

B) You're overly reactionary to tiny samples.

Can you provide an example of me being overly reactionary to tiny samples?


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Seriously? This thread alone is peppered with examples.

Here is one from yesterday:

“The Roberson/Grant starters last year isn’t evidence? Small sample size, sure. But 36 minutes played together and can’t eclipse 73 pts per 100? That’s bad”.

You literally admit to reacting to small sample sizes. Do you suffer from some sort of short-term memory loss?

[bondom34]

You surmise that I don’t like Westbrook because I’ve been critical of him, but that doesn’t make any sense. Being critical of someone doesn’t mean you don’t like them. I don’t like some stretches of Westbrook basketball (just like I’m sure some others would agree), but he’s one of the main reasons the Thunder are my favorite team.

Again, you are acting as if saying Schroder has played better basketball than Westbrook over this early stretch is some scorching hot take that is just crazy to even think. You act as if it is on some level personally offensive to you. It’s okay to have differing opinions, man. The sky isn’t going to fall out if I don’t agree with you.


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It's because it's not critical to a rational sense. Krnzts called you for it earlier, you harp and don't give credit. And no, statistically he hasn't been better. It doesn't offend me at all, it just isn't correct. You're free to disagree, you're also free to say the sky is orange and disagree with me saying its blue. You'd be incorrect in both assessments. Better on court rating, against the harder opponents, while scoring more on better efficiency, a better assist/TO ratio, BPM, WS/48, PPG, APG, RPB, SPG.

For the last time though I'll leave it there, good night. Might try to catch the Nuggets game while I'm watching football.

So I had to do a little more statistical digging so I can put what I’m seeing in numbers to help you understand. I admit, I’m not the best at using stats, but I understand enough to get me in trouble.

If you look at the 11-2 run we’ve had, Schroder has a slightly better NetRtg and has significantly better NetRtgs in 2-man lineups with Grant, George, Adams and Noel over that stretch as compared to Westbrook.

I’ll do a little more in-depth statistical analysis sometime later, but for now that’s what I’ve found.

Obviously the numbers I’m showing and the numbers you’ve shown aren’t the only way to paint a pictures so I will continue digging to help you see what I am seeing. Maybe you will insist that we put the #s in from 0-4 start, but I’ve completely discounted that start in my head as I feel it was an adjustment period for the new guys.


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Yeah, you should count the start. Because those games count, and I think everyone else pretty well set the rest straight by now.

Westbrook's been better by basically every measure except one. And "eye test" isn't a thing unless you don't have real proof to me.

[getrichordie]

So I had to do a little more statistical digging so I can put what I’m seeing in numbers to help you understand. I admit, I’m not the best at using stats, but I understand enough to get me in trouble.

If you look at the 11-2 run we’ve had, Schroder has a slightly better NetRtg and has significantly better NetRtgs in 2-man lineups with Grant, George, Adams and Noel over that stretch as compared to Westbrook.

I’ll do a little more in-depth statistical analysis sometime later, but for now that’s what I’ve found.

Obviously the numbers I’m showing and the numbers you’ve shown aren’t the only way to paint a pictures so I will continue digging to help you see what I am seeing. Maybe you will insist that we put the #s in from 0-4 start, but I’ve completely discounted that start in my head as I feel it was an adjustment period for the new guys.

How are you accounting for team strength? Westbrook has played in 2 games against teams below .500 vs Schroder's 7. It makes sense that the lineup ratings will reflect that, especially when you eliminate the first 4 games meaning fully half of Schroder's numbers are coming from teams under .500.

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

I admit that Schroder has had the added benefit of playing the Suns 3 times, but I’m looking purely at Schroder’s play versus Westbrook over that stretch. Mainly what has impressed me about Schroder > Westbrook in that stretch is:

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.
Schroder’s shot selection.
Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)
Schroder’s shooting.
Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

I thought he was a little bit more consistent in those areas.

And I like the fact that Schroder didn’t have to dominate the ball a ton. (25.9 USG% to Westbrook’s 31.6 USG%)

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.


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[getrichordie]

I don't think it's a surprise Felton played last night with schroder starting at sg.

Donovan staggered Schröder though. And he was on the floor anyway. He basically played Felton over TLC in said 4th quarter.

Wasn't TLC awful in his minutes though? I didn't get to watch more than snippets last night.

Yes TLC was awful. I don’t remember Donovan even played him after he pulled him out for the first time. He had like one or two good defensive possessions and that was it.


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[Atomic Punk]

So I had to do a little more statistical digging so I can put what I’m seeing in numbers to help you understand. I admit, I’m not the best at using stats, but I understand enough to get me in trouble.

If you look at the 11-2 run we’ve had, Schroder has a slightly better NetRtg and has significantly better NetRtgs in 2-man lineups with Grant, George, Adams and Noel over that stretch as compared to Westbrook.

I’ll do a little more in-depth statistical analysis sometime later, but for now that’s what I’ve found.

Obviously the numbers I’m showing and the numbers you’ve shown aren’t the only way to paint a pictures so I will continue digging to help you see what I am seeing. Maybe you will insist that we put the #s in from 0-4 start, but I’ve completely discounted that start in my head as I feel it was an adjustment period for the new guys.

How are you accounting for team strength? Westbrook has played in 2 games against teams below .500 vs Schroder's 7. It makes sense that the lineup ratings will reflect that, especially when you eliminate the first 4 games meaning fully half of Schroder's numbers are coming from teams under .500.

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

I admit that Schroder has had the added benefit of playing the Suns 3 times, but I’m looking purely at Schroder’s play versus Westbrook over that stretch. Mainly what has impressed me about Schroder > Westbrook in that stretch is:

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.
Schroder’s shot selection.
Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)
Schroder’s shooting.
Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

I thought he was a little bit more consistent in those areas.

And I like the fact that Schroder didn’t have to dominate the ball a ton. (25.9 USG% to Westbrook’s 31.6 USG%)

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

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Are we really having a discussion about who is better, Schroder or Westbrook? Don’t get me wrong, I am happy with how Schroder has performed but not surprised, he is basically the same guy he was in ATL. But Westbrook, in spite of his shortcomings, is on a different level.

[getrichordie]

How are you accounting for team strength? Westbrook has played in 2 games against teams below .500 vs Schroder's 7. It makes sense that the lineup ratings will reflect that, especially when you eliminate the first 4 games meaning fully half of Schroder's numbers are coming from teams under .500.

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

I admit that Schroder has had the added benefit of playing the Suns 3 times, but I’m looking purely at Schroder’s play versus Westbrook over that stretch. Mainly what has impressed me about Schroder > Westbrook in that stretch is:

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.
Schroder’s shot selection.
Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)
Schroder’s shooting.
Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

I thought he was a little bit more consistent in those areas.

And I like the fact that Schroder didn’t have to dominate the ball a ton. (25.9 USG% to Westbrook’s 31.6 USG%)

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

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Are we really having a discussion about who is better, Schroder or Westbrook? Don’t get me wrong, I am happy with how Schroder has performed it not surprised, he is basically the same guy he was in ATL. But Westbrook, in spite of his shortcomings, is on a different level.

Oh, I agree 1000%. It’s a long story but to sum it up, I happen to have the opinion that I think Schroder has been a little bit more solid than Westbrook over the 11-2 run we’ve had. Apparently, on this board, that’s the equivalent of saying Schroder > Westbrook period. So that’s the discussion. I’m just trying to layout why I believe Schroder has been a touch more solid running the offense and playing defense than Westbrook over that stretch because apparently it’s ridiculous to think that.


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[Atomic Punk]

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

I admit that Schroder has had the added benefit of playing the Suns 3 times, but I’m looking purely at Schroder’s play versus Westbrook over that stretch. Mainly what has impressed me about Schroder > Westbrook in that stretch is:

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.
Schroder’s shot selection.
Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)
Schroder’s shooting.
Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

I thought he was a little bit more consistent in those areas.

And I like the fact that Schroder didn’t have to dominate the ball a ton. (25.9 USG% to Westbrook’s 31.6 USG%)

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

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Are we really having a discussion about who is better, Schroder or Westbrook? Don’t get me wrong, I am happy with how Schroder has performed it not surprised, he is basically the same guy he was in ATL. But Westbrook, in spite of his shortcomings, is on a different level.

Oh, I agree 1000%. It’s a long story but to sum it up, I happen to have the opinion that I think Schroder has been a little bit more solid than Westbrook over the 11-2 run we’ve had. Apparently, on this board, that’s the equivalent of saying Schroder > Westbrook period. So that’s the discussion. I’m just trying to layout why I believe Schroder has been a touch more solid running the offense and playing defense than Westbrook over that stretch because apparently it’s ridiculous to think that.

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I don’t think it is ridiculous, it’s your opinion. I just happen to disagree with it.

[getrichordie]

Are we really having a discussion about who is better, Schroder or Westbrook? Don’t get me wrong, I am happy with how Schroder has performed it not surprised, he is basically the same guy he was in ATL. But Westbrook, in spite of his shortcomings, is on a different level.

Oh, I agree 1000%. It’s a long story but to sum it up, I happen to have the opinion that I think Schroder has been a little bit more solid than Westbrook over the 11-2 run we’ve had. Apparently, on this board, that’s the equivalent of saying Schroder > Westbrook period. So that’s the discussion. I’m just trying to layout why I believe Schroder has been a touch more solid running the offense and playing defense than Westbrook over that stretch because apparently it’s ridiculous to think that.

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I don’t think it is ridiculous, it’s your opinion. I just happen to disagree with it.

Thank you. I think that’s the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on this board.


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[spearsy23]

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

Why would you want to discount the way the teams were playing going into the game? Does it really matter if Phoenix suddenly went on a 20 game winning streak? That doesn't change how they've played up to the point when we played them or who they were at that time.

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.

What does this mean? If our goal is as stated then we want to play as fast as possible.
With Russ on we're at a pace of 104.8, with schroder and no Russ it's 98.7. So this is demonstrably false in regards to what the team is trying to accomplish.

Schroder’s shot selection.

Schroder is shooting 42%
Westbrook 48%

Starters score 2.5 more points per 100 with Westbrook than schroder (despite better comp).

22.5% of westbrook's shots have been mid range jumpers, 27.5% of Schroder's have.

Westbrook has a lower 3PAr as well.

Again, demonstrably false, Westbrook has been taking much better shots than in the past.

Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)

This is one area where I don't think you're wrong, but also don't believe it's been in any real significant way. Westbrook has been clearly out of shape, but has been trying harder on defense for the most part than the previous two years. We'll see how this progresses as he gets back into shape.

Schroder’s shooting.

Covered above. I think you mean three point shooting though, which isn't wrong.

Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

Again, offense is better with Westbrook, who has done a masterful job of knowing when and how to get others involved. 'giving the ball up' is useless if you're giving the ball up so that jerami Grant can isolate in the wing.

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

Is our goal to make jerami Grant as effective as possible or to win games? And again, Westbrook didn't get the benefit of playing against those crap teams.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

And I'm telling you why you're wrong.

[getrichordie]

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

Why would you want to discount the way the teams were playing going into the game? Does it really matter if Phoenix suddenly went on a 20 game winning streak? That doesn't change how they've played up to the point when we played them or who they were at that time.

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.

What does this mean? If our goal is as stated then we want to play as fast as possible.
With Russ on we're at a pace of 104.8, with schroder and no Russ it's 98.7. So this is demonstrably false in regards to what the team is trying to accomplish.

Schroder’s shot selection.

Schroder is shooting 42%
Westbrook 48%

Starters score 2.5 more points per 100 with Westbrook than schroder (despite better comp).

22.5% of westbrook's shots have been mid range jumpers, 27.5% of Schroder's have.

Westbrook has a lower 3PAr as well.

Again, demonstrably false, Westbrook has been taking much better shots than in the past.

Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)

This is one area where I don't think you're wrong, but also don't believe it's been in any real significant way. Westbrook has been clearly out of shape, but has been trying harder on defense for the most part than the previous two years. We'll see how this progresses as he gets back into shape.

Schroder’s shooting.

Covered above. I think you mean three point shooting though, which isn't wrong.

Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

Again, offense is better with Westbrook, who has done a masterful job of knowing when and how to get others involved. 'giving the ball up' is useless if you're giving the ball up so that jerami Grant can isolate in the wing.

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

Is our goal to make jerami Grant as effective as possible or to win games? And again, Westbrook didn't get the benefit of playing against those crap teams.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

And I'm telling you why you're wrong.

Defense matters too, ya know? Are you going to tell me Westbrook has been better on defense?

Of course we want to play faster, but when your pace is way ahead of the rest of your team, that can be an issue and we’ve seen that in the past with Westbrook.

Schroder still has the better NetRtg over that stretch and you cannot discount that at all.

If it makes everyone happy, I will concede the point and just simply say Schroder has been extremely solid for us.


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[Atomic Punk]

That’s a very good point. And I understand why team strength is something that should be taken into account but it’s early in the season so the below .500 / over .500 stuff is overblown. Hell we were 0-4 to start and have since been on an 11-2 run. Those are numbers I would probably utilize at the break as teams to start to regress to their mean.

Why would you want to discount the way the teams were playing going into the game? Does it really matter if Phoenix suddenly went on a 20 game winning streak? That doesn't change how they've played up to the point when we played them or who they were at that time.

Schroder’s control of the pace of the game.

What does this mean? If our goal is as stated then we want to play as fast as possible.
With Russ on we're at a pace of 104.8, with schroder and no Russ it's 98.7. So this is demonstrably false in regards to what the team is trying to accomplish.

Schroder’s shot selection.

Schroder is shooting 42%
Westbrook 48%

Starters score 2.5 more points per 100 with Westbrook than schroder (despite better comp).

22.5% of westbrook's shots have been mid range jumpers, 27.5% of Schroder's have.

Westbrook has a lower 3PAr as well.

Again, demonstrably false, Westbrook has been taking much better shots than in the past.

Schroder’s defense. (leads our team in charges drawn)

This is one area where I don't think you're wrong, but also don't believe it's been in any real significant way. Westbrook has been clearly out of shape, but has been trying harder on defense for the most part than the previous two years. We'll see how this progresses as he gets back into shape.

Schroder’s shooting.

Covered above. I think you mean three point shooting though, which isn't wrong.

Schroder getting the ball to others a little bit more (not sure how to check time of possession per player).

Again, offense is better with Westbrook, who has done a masterful job of knowing when and how to get others involved. 'giving the ball up' is useless if you're giving the ball up so that jerami Grant can isolate in the wing.

Again, I’ve referenced the 2-man lineups and it confirms that Schroder has had a good effect on those players moreso than Westbrook has in that stretch of games regardless of opponent strength.

Is our goal to make jerami Grant as effective as possible or to win games? And again, Westbrook didn't get the benefit of playing against those crap teams.

At the end of the day, we can quibble over every little detail. I’m just telling you what I see happening on the court.

And I'm telling you why you're wrong.

Defense matters too, ya know? Are you going to tell me Westbrook has been better on defense?

Of course we want to play faster, but when your pace is way ahead of the rest of your team, that can be an issue and we’ve seen that in the past with Westbrook.

Schroder still has the better NetRtg over that stretch and you cannot discount that at all.

If it makes everyone happy, I will concede the point and just simply say Schroder has been extremely solid for us.


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Yes, Schroder has been solid and is the best backup PG this team has had in years. The end.

[spearsy23]

Defense matters too, ya know? Are you going to tell me Westbrook has been better on defense?

are you the same guy advocating robes for JR?

Of course defense matters, and Schroder has been better than Westbrook to some small degree on that end, but not anything particularly significant.

Of course we want to play faster, but when your pace is way ahead of the rest of your team, that can be an issue and we’ve seen that in the past with Westbrook.

Make an actual argument, not some vague inference with no real meaning. With schroder Manning the point we'd be 24th in pace. He hasn't controlled the pace at all the way we're wanting.

Schroder still has the better NetRtg over that stretch and you cannot discount that at all.

Of course I can discount it, and I've told you how multiple times. He had the advantage of playing the Knicks, Suns twice, and Cavs.

[getrichordie]

Does this work for you Spearsy?

The Schroder starters have posted better numbers than the Westbrook starters, albeit against weaker opponents.


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[Atomic Punk]

Does this work for you Spearsy?

The Schroder starters have posted better numbers than the Westbrook starters, albeit against weaker opponents.


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Dude, please quit while you are behind. Please.