2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[Dn4sty]

It’s not worth it guys

what would the world look like today if socrates decided it wasn't worth it? or gallileo? bertrand russell? karl marx? jaime escalante?

Weird choice of guys, but don’t flatter yourself

[slick_watts]

It’s not worth it guys

what would the world look like today if socrates decided it wasn't worth it? or gallileo? bertrand russell? karl marx? jaime escalante?

Weird choice of guys, but don’t flatter yourself

stand and deliver, my friend.

[hardenASG13]

Bring good on defense this season doesn't invalidate what Roberson has done for the past five years in any way.

Keep telling yourself that. You guys have argued for years he was irreplaceable and extremely valuable. You would've scoffed at the notion that a guy like shroeder and abrines taking his minutes would work, and would've cited their Drtg, net rating, etc., whatever stat you wanted to pull to make your argument look good. You know that is true, as the arguments have been had many times.

They haven't missed a beat without him this year, flat out. Don't even notice he's gone. Some went as far to say he was the 2nd or 3rd most valuable player on the team, which is just laughable. It's a shame because prior to last year, the top end talent was clearly enough to win a title on this team, yet they had to settle with roberson, a 1 way defensive specialist who can dribble in the half court, collapse a defense, shoot 3s, shoot off a dribble, a pull up, can't shoot midrange, and can't post up. He wasn't just limited, all he could do was shoot layups or dunks he didn't generate. There is a reason nobody else in the league uses guys like that, and hasn't for about 10 years, believe it or not.

It turns out playing 5 on 5 on both ends is a good thing, and like I always told it would be, the defense is fine without him. Not sure how you can argue otherwise?

You can't be this stupid, it's like arguing curry isn't that good because the raptors are winning without him.

You mean the warriors? Yeah they weren't the same without curry. You could definately notice him being gone. Do you people read what you and 1 or just see someone countering me and blindly and 1 the comment, even when it's blatantly wrong (curry being out made a huge difference for the Warriors), and the team mentioned is incorrect? Man you can really sense the roberson/stat crowd scrambling on this board.

[spearsy23]

Keep telling yourself that. You guys have argued for years he was irreplaceable and extremely valuable. You would've scoffed at the notion that a guy like shroeder and abrines taking his minutes would work, and would've cited their Drtg, net rating, etc., whatever stat you wanted to pull to make your argument look good. You know that is true, as the arguments have been had many times.

They haven't missed a beat without him this year, flat out. Don't even notice he's gone. Some went as far to say he was the 2nd or 3rd most valuable player on the team, which is just laughable. It's a shame because prior to last year, the top end talent was clearly enough to win a title on this team, yet they had to settle with roberson, a 1 way defensive specialist who can dribble in the half court, collapse a defense, shoot 3s, shoot off a dribble, a pull up, can't shoot midrange, and can't post up. He wasn't just limited, all he could do was shoot layups or dunks he didn't generate. There is a reason nobody else in the league uses guys like that, and hasn't for about 10 years, believe it or not.

It turns out playing 5 on 5 on both ends is a good thing, and like I always told it would be, the defense is fine without him. Not sure how you can argue otherwise?

You can't be this stupid, it's like arguing curry isn't that good because the raptors are winning without him.

You mean the warriors? Yeah they weren't the same without curry. You could definately notice him being gone. Do you people read what you and 1 or just see someone countering me and blindly and 1 the comment, even when it's blatantly wrong (curry being out made a huge difference for the Warriors), and the team mentioned is incorrect? Man you can really sense the roberson/stat crowd scrambling on this board.

No, I mean the raptors. You're comparing the success of two different teams with and without Roberson.

[hardenASG13]

You can't be this stupid, it's like arguing curry isn't that good because the raptors are winning without him.

You mean the warriors? Yeah they weren't the same without curry. You could definately notice him being gone. Do you people read what you and 1 or just see someone countering me and blindly and 1 the comment, even when it's blatantly wrong (curry being out made a huge difference for the Warriors), and the team mentioned is incorrect? Man you can really sense the roberson/stat crowd scrambling on this board.

No, I mean the raptors. You're comparing the success of two different teams with and without Roberson.

Well he wasn't removed from the raptors, he was removed from the thunder. The thunder haven't missed him. Like I said, deny it if you want to, but you all have repeatedly said he couldn't be replaced by guys like he's being replaced with. What a weird, awful, awful argument here.

[spearsy23]

You mean the warriors? Yeah they weren't the same without curry. You could definately notice him being gone. Do you people read what you and 1 or just see someone countering me and blindly and 1 the comment, even when it's blatantly wrong (curry being out made a huge difference for the Warriors), and the team mentioned is incorrect? Man you can really sense the roberson/stat crowd scrambling on this board.

No, I mean the raptors. You're comparing the success of two different teams with and without Roberson.

Well he wasn't removed from the raptors, he was removed from the thunder. The thunder haven't missed him. Like I said, deny it if you want to, but you all have repeatedly said he couldn't be replaced by guys like he's being replaced with. What a weird, awful, awful argument here.

What? First of all nobody ever said he couldn't be replaced. Anyone can be replaced by fundamentally changing the makeup of a team.

Second, you're right there is definitely an awful argument here.

[hardenASG13]

No, I mean the raptors. You're comparing the success of two different teams with and without Roberson.

Well he wasn't removed from the raptors, he was removed from the thunder. The thunder haven't missed him. Like I said, deny it if you want to, but you all have repeatedly said he couldn't be replaced by guys like he's being replaced with. What a weird, awful, awful argument here.

What? First of all nobody ever said he couldn't be replaced. Anyone can be replaced by fundamentally changing the makeup of a team.

Second, you're right there is definitely an awful argument here.

Actually, lots of you have. Almost all of you actually. If I would've said pre Carmelo trade they could replace his minutes bringing in a guy like shroeder, and playing abrines, grant, and a second round rookie more, you all would've heavily opposed it and broke out the Drtg 's. I know it, you know. It's been done on here many many times, with multiple hypothetical replacements brought up who you all have claimed would cause the sky to fall defensively. That simply hasn't been the case, far from it.

[spearsy23]

Well he wasn't removed from the raptors, he was removed from the thunder. The thunder haven't missed him. Like I said, deny it if you want to, but you all have repeatedly said he couldn't be replaced by guys like he's being replaced with. What a weird, awful, awful argument here.

What? First of all nobody ever said he couldn't be replaced. Anyone can be replaced by fundamentally changing the makeup of a team.

Second, you're right there is definitely an awful argument here.

Actually, lots of you have. Almost all of you actually. If I would've said pre Carmelo trade they could replace his minutes bringing in a guy like shroeder, and playing abrines, grant, and a second round rookie more, you all would've heavily opposed it and broke out the Drtg 's. I know it, you know. It's been done on here many many times, with multiple hypothetical replacements brought up who you all have claimed would cause the sky to fall defensively. That simply hasn't been the case, far from it.

Can you bring those quotes up? Because they're strawmen that never actually happened. I know I specifically have always said I'd gladly replace robes in the starting lineup if we had a better option. We haven't. We still don't, assuming a fully healthy Roberson which is likely a pipe dream at this point.

And yes, the sky did fall without Roberson, or did you already forget what actually happened while filling your head with nonsense fantasies?

[hardenASG13]

What? First of all nobody ever said he couldn't be replaced. Anyone can be replaced by fundamentally changing the makeup of a team.

Second, you're right there is definitely an awful argument here.

Actually, lots of you have. Almost all of you actually. If I would've said pre Carmelo trade they could replace his minutes bringing in a guy like shroeder, and playing abrines, grant, and a second round rookie more, you all would've heavily opposed it and broke out the Drtg 's. I know it, you know. It's been done on here many many times, with multiple hypothetical replacements brought up who you all have claimed would cause the sky to fall defensively. That simply hasn't been the case, far from it.

Can you bring those quotes up? Because they're strawmen that never actually happened. I know I specifically have always said I'd gladly replace robes in the starting lineup if we had a better option. We haven't. We still don't, assuming a fully healthy Roberson which is likely a pipe dream at this point.

And yes, the sky did fall without Roberson, or did you already forget what actually happened while filling your head with nonsense fantasies?

You've got to be kidding those discussions have been held at length, multiple times on this board. Wow. If you didn't participate, which I doubt, I know you read them. I know Marcus smart, tj warren, have been brought up. It's basically every offseason, I'm not gonna spend hours combing hundreds of pages to find specifics.

And yep, they did fall apart replacing him with Corey brewer and Josh huestis, what team are they on this year? You guys gloated heavily. Now it's NBA level talent replacing him, and not high end outside of Schroeder, a guy who I know would've been doubted by all of you to replace him. Slick still doubts him. It's all it took. You're telling me they couldn't have landed a guy like shroeder and kicked robes to the curb years ago? It's a shame they didn't, they had Russ and KD (and ibaka). They could've been the Warriors.

[slick_watts]

You've got to be kidding those discussions have been held at length, multiple times on this board. Wow. If you didn't participate, which I doubt, I know you read them. I know Marcus smart, tj warren, have been brought up. It's basically every offseason, I'm not gonna spend hours combing hundreds of pages to find specifics.

you said things like this:

Lastly, he's not better than Avery Bradley, it isn't close. He's arguably better on defense, nothing more, and Bradley is night and day the better offensive and overall player. Can't believe that's even being discussed, honestly, even by a Roberson fan. Would be curious if other supporters are that delusional as well?

a nice, thoughtful reply to you with a ton of evidence that roberson is better than bradley generated this response from you:

Wow so much substance! They need to play cam payne!! Perks presence is valuable, Cleveland got a steal! Robes!

this is the kind of 'discussion' we go through back and forth when it comes to andre roberson and the thunder. you making some thin claim without any sort of evidence or back-up and telling people to trust you because of your basketball credentials. someone provides some evidence and you mock them for posting stats or something and nearly every time you were wrong. we went through four or five players you promised would be superior to andre roberson, and none of them were. you're doing a victory lap now even though one of those players you purport to 'not believe in' has replaced him in the lineup supposedly galvanizing your claim. it's silly.

when you suggested that sam presti should upgrade the position, here is how i replied:

i agree wholeheartedly with you if there was an opportunity to upgrade starting shooting guard with a better player than andre roberson, then that should have been pursued. certainly if you've put any thought into these posts you have some examples for us...? you say they are always available. who are they?

this is how everyone replied to you. i even listed a bunch of names during that discussion. you suggested players like bradley, who is terrible. you went back and talked about dion waiters, who is terrible. you talked about alex abrines, and that was much worse. no one on this board made the argument to you that andre roberson is not replaceable. you are making that up in this thread in order to create an enemy for you to fight against. but nobody is going to fall for it.

when the thunder got off to a slow start while 'dre was dealing with knee tendonitis, this was your position:

Why would a defensive lineup of Westbrook, george, melo,patterson(or grant, or abrines, or huestis even) and Adams struggle so much that they would need the great Andre Roberson to save them?

nobody was arguing with you that roberson was irreplaceable. everyone was telling you those lineups wouldn't work on defense, and a big reason was because of westbrook and carmelo. but you believed that the uptick offensively with melo in there and a 'competent replacement' for roberson would improve the lineups. you were wrong.

eventually you posted this:

Carmelo and abrines aren't the turnstiles defensively you and others claim they are.

...ok?

i'm not going to go through any more of these posts but i just wanted to point out what was actually being discussed at the time and how you are creating false positions to argue against. we knew carmelo was a scrub on defense and everyone knew that andre roberson was necessary for that defense to function. this is what you were arguing against in preseason last year, and early on in the season, and after he got hurt and brewer was acquired.

the thunder defense has been elite without andre roberson this year, but the conditions are not the same as they were the year before when they were accommodating carmelo anthony in the starting lineup. several realgm'ers even posited that it's possible the defense could recover a lot by virtue of losing melo / adding noel. it's great that the defense is working out! does that mean that a healthy andre roberson wouldn't improve the team even more? of course not. but for some reason that's the argument you want to make. probably because it's unfalsifiable for the time being.

if there is a thing you should be gloating about it's the apparent development of jerami grant, which is definitely a thing you got correct and a lot of other people did not.

so stop trying to fool everyone. we all know where you stood on these issues and even taking a cursory look back on the pages and pages of roberson discussion from last summer / season there's a lot more i could put up here to demonstrate my point. but i think this'll do for now.

[ThunderBolt]

I know for a fact that after dre’s Injury slick said something along the lines of the thunder didn’t need to necessarily have someone who could do all things Dre does defensively, they just needed to find a player who could impact the game to the same level even if it wasn’t as one sided as Dre. If I thought it would actually matter, I would find the quote.

[getrichordie]

Our offense has actually been above average as of late, guys.

Before the Nets game, they were 9th in ORtg over last 15 games. After Nets game, they dropped to 15th over last 15 games. That’s how tight it’s been in the ORtg rankings lately.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

[CROklahoma]

What has happened to Russ after the injury.
He was the ultimate Russ before his last injury, constantly attacking the paint and forcing opponents to pack the paint.

Now, he is in a really bad spot ...
Hope he changes and adjusts that, probably just due to his legs not being under him ...

[getrichordie]

I know for a fact that after dre’s Injury slick said something along the lines of the thunder didn’t need to necessarily have someone who could do all things Dre does defensively, they just needed to find a player who could impact the game to the same level even if it wasn’t as one sided as Dre. If I thought it would actually matter, I would fine the quote.

Makes sense. If you can find someone who can do what 70% of what Dre does defensively and the other 30% of that impact comes on offense, you’ll be fine on the court. That’s what Grant essentially is.

edit: probably more of an 75/25 or 80/20 blend with Grant.

Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[getrichordie]

What has happened to Russ after the injury.
He was the ultimate Russ before his last injury, constantly attacking the paint and forcing opponents to pack the paint.

Now, he is in a really bad spot ...
Hope he changes and adjusts that, probably just due to his legs not being under him ...

Westbrook is still going to attack when he needs to, but the Thunder are trying to move away from being so reliant on Westbrook. He’s got a ton of minutes on his body, more especially his knees. We need to find different ways to get buckets instead of relying on a 30 year old Westbrook to be a 27 year old Westbrook.

That’s why the offense looked a little different last night. They are trying to incorporate new stuff in but it’s tough when you don’t have naturally gifted offensive players outside of Westbrook, George, and Schroder. Abrines is gifted at 3-ball and that’s about it for him.


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[hardenASG13]

You've got to be kidding those discussions have been held at length, multiple times on this board. Wow. If you didn't participate, which I doubt, I know you read them. I know Marcus smart, tj warren, have been brought up. It's basically every offseason, I'm not gonna spend hours combing hundreds of pages to find specifics.

you said things like this:

Lastly, he's not better than Avery Bradley, it isn't close. He's arguably better on defense, nothing more, and Bradley is night and day the better offensive and overall player. Can't believe that's even being discussed, honestly, even by a Roberson fan. Would be curious if other supporters are that delusional as well?

a nice, thoughtful reply to you with a ton of evidence that roberson is better than bradley generated this response from you:

Wow so much substance! They need to play cam payne!! Perks presence is valuable, Cleveland got a steal! Robes!

this is the kind of 'discussion' we go through back and forth when it comes to andre roberson and the thunder. you making some thin claim without any sort of evidence or back-up and telling people to trust you because of your basketball credentials. someone provides some evidence and you mock them for posting stats or something and nearly every time you were wrong. we went through four or five players you promised would be superior to andre roberson, and none of them were. you're doing a victory lap now even though one of those players you purport to 'not believe in' has replaced him in the lineup supposedly galvanizing your claim. it's silly.

when you suggested that sam presti should upgrade the position, here is how i replied:

i agree wholeheartedly with you if there was an opportunity to upgrade starting shooting guard with a better player than andre roberson, then that should have been pursued. certainly if you've put any thought into these posts you have some examples for us...? you say they are always available. who are they?

this is how everyone replied to you. i even listed a bunch of names during that discussion. you suggested players like bradley, who is terrible. you went back and talked about dion waiters, who is terrible. you talked about alex abrines, and that was much worse. no one on this board made the argument to you that andre roberson is not replaceable. you are making that up in this thread in order to create an enemy for you to fight against. but nobody is going to fall for it.

when the thunder got off to a slow start while 'dre was dealing with knee tendonitis, this was your position:

Why would a defensive lineup of Westbrook, george, melo,patterson(or grant, or abrines, or huestis even) and Adams struggle so much that they would need the great Andre Roberson to save them?

nobody was arguing with you that roberson was irreplaceable. everyone was telling you those lineups wouldn't work on defense, and a big reason was because of westbrook and carmelo. but you believed that the uptick offensively with melo in there and a 'competent replacement' for roberson would improve the lineups. you were wrong.

eventually you posted this:

Carmelo and abrines aren't the turnstiles defensively you and others claim they are.

...ok?

i'm not going to go through any more of these posts but i just wanted to point out what was actually being discussed at the time and how you are creating false positions to argue against. we knew carmelo was a scrub on defense and everyone knew that andre roberson was necessary for that defense to function. this is what you were arguing against in preseason last year, and early on in the season, and after he got hurt and brewer was acquired.

the thunder defense has been elite without andre roberson this year, but the conditions are not the same as they were the year before when they were accommodating carmelo anthony in the starting lineup. several realgm'ers even posited that it's possible the defense could recover a lot by virtue of losing melo / adding noel. it's great that the defense is working out! does that mean that a healthy andre roberson wouldn't improve the team even more? of course not. but for some reason that's the argument you want to make. probably because it's unfalsifiable for the time being.

if there is a thing you should be gloating about it's the apparent development of jerami grant, which is definitely a thing you got correct and a lot of other people did not.

so stop trying to fool everyone. we all know where you stood on these issues and even taking a cursory look back on the pages and pages of roberson discussion from last summer / season there's a lot more i could put up here to demonstrate my point. but i think this'll do for now.

Impressive work. I have been wrong at times, I'm not denying it, melo is a good example. Really wanted him to work out. I can go back and find quotes as well, but there's no way I'd spend hours doing it (you hafta be a little psychotic to do that) Avery Bradley is one name I mentioned. I could quote you all saying he was better than smart or Warren offensively, based on their percentages, bit again not doing that. I still submit bradley would be good with the thunder starters, he's better than Ferguson today imo. Your creating a false impression of the convos here too, but, you just know i don't care enough to go back to find quotes. It's really the only way you win arguments.

[Old Man Game]

You've got to be kidding those discussions have been held at length, multiple times on this board. Wow. If you didn't participate, which I doubt, I know you read them. I know Marcus smart, tj warren, have been brought up. It's basically every offseason, I'm not gonna spend hours combing hundreds of pages to find specifics.

you said things like this:

Lastly, he's not better than Avery Bradley, it isn't close. He's arguably better on defense, nothing more, and Bradley is night and day the better offensive and overall player. Can't believe that's even being discussed, honestly, even by a Roberson fan. Would be curious if other supporters are that delusional as well?

a nice, thoughtful reply to you with a ton of evidence that roberson is better than bradley generated this response from you:

Wow so much substance! They need to play cam payne!! Perks presence is valuable, Cleveland got a steal! Robes!

this is the kind of 'discussion' we go through back and forth when it comes to andre roberson and the thunder. you making some thin claim without any sort of evidence or back-up and telling people to trust you because of your basketball credentials. someone provides some evidence and you mock them for posting stats or something and nearly every time you were wrong. we went through four or five players you promised would be superior to andre roberson, and none of them were. you're doing a victory lap now even though one of those players you purport to 'not believe in' has replaced him in the lineup supposedly galvanizing your claim. it's silly.

when you suggested that sam presti should upgrade the position, here is how i replied:

i agree wholeheartedly with you if there was an opportunity to upgrade starting shooting guard with a better player than andre roberson, then that should have been pursued. certainly if you've put any thought into these posts you have some examples for us...? you say they are always available. who are they?

this is how everyone replied to you. i even listed a bunch of names during that discussion. you suggested players like bradley, who is terrible. you went back and talked about dion waiters, who is terrible. you talked about alex abrines, and that was much worse. no one on this board made the argument to you that andre roberson is not replaceable. you are making that up in this thread in order to create an enemy for you to fight against. but nobody is going to fall for it.

when the thunder got off to a slow start while 'dre was dealing with knee tendonitis, this was your position:

Why would a defensive lineup of Westbrook, george, melo,patterson(or grant, or abrines, or huestis even) and Adams struggle so much that they would need the great Andre Roberson to save them?

nobody was arguing with you that roberson was irreplaceable. everyone was telling you those lineups wouldn't work on defense, and a big reason was because of westbrook and carmelo. but you believed that the uptick offensively with melo in there and a 'competent replacement' for roberson would improve the lineups. you were wrong.

eventually you posted this:

Carmelo and abrines aren't the turnstiles defensively you and others claim they are.

...ok?

i'm not going to go through any more of these posts but i just wanted to point out what was actually being discussed at the time and how you are creating false positions to argue against. we knew carmelo was a scrub on defense and everyone knew that andre roberson was necessary for that defense to function. this is what you were arguing against in preseason last year, and early on in the season, and after he got hurt and brewer was acquired.

the thunder defense has been elite without andre roberson this year, but the conditions are not the same as they were the year before when they were accommodating carmelo anthony in the starting lineup. several realgm'ers even posited that it's possible the defense could recover a lot by virtue of losing melo / adding noel. it's great that the defense is working out! does that mean that a healthy andre roberson wouldn't improve the team even more? of course not. but for some reason that's the argument you want to make. probably because it's unfalsifiable for the time being.

if there is a thing you should be gloating about it's the apparent development of jerami grant, which is definitely a thing you got correct and a lot of other people did not.

so stop trying to fool everyone. we all know where you stood on these issues and even taking a cursory look back on the pages and pages of roberson discussion from last summer / season there's a lot more i could put up here to demonstrate my point. but i think this'll do for now.

I'm not invested in this discussion at all but I have to ask, how the **** did you find all these old quotes? Is there some customized search or something on this site or elsewhere?

[Pillendreher]

I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago: George is still going strong driving to the rim. Among the 68 guys with at least 150 drives on the season, he's 7th in FG%. Russ is 5th. That's such an underrated aspect of his performance this year so far, especially with his struggles from the perimeter.

[slick_watts]

in games westbrook has played this year the thunder are -4.28pp100 with him off the court.

in games westbrook played last year the thunder were -5.25pp100 with him off the court.

not much of a difference. those sample minutes this year have been better defensively but offensively have been worse. abrines and patterson not making threes has hurt. i don't think schroder has been very good either. noel making his impact felt defensively. if our defense wasn't playing elite level in those minutes our bench would be a disaster.

[Bergmaniac]

The lineups with George and Schroder playing together at the end of quarters with Westbrook on the bench have also been an absolute disaster offensively ever since Westbrook came back.