WCQF | (4) Oklahoma City Thunder vs Utah Jazz (5) | UTA 4-2

[bondom34]

he was 60+ ts in games 3-4. game 2 was the dud. i think you're being weird about this.

I don't measure everything by TS. He wasn't good. He was their best player games 1-4, but still not great.

paul george is a scorer and was at 60+ ts on 30 usage games 3-4. he was fine.

He's supposed to be more than a scorer.

[Atomic Punk]

i don't agree. i think russ as an individual allowed himself to be taken out of his game by rubio, gobert and the jazz for the majority of this series. go back to this threat prior to game 5. i don't think any thunder fan wasn't on board with this. russ was culpable for much of the poor play on offense and defense for the bulk of this series. he won game 5 single handed, and kept us in this one. we might not have been in this situation in the first place had his head been screwed on straight to start. it's russ' biggest weakness as a player.

But that’s Russ, he is what he is. You take it or leave it, for better or worse. Point is, despite his shortcomings, he showed up tonight. I’m fine if you don’t dig his game, but there is plenty of blame to go around for this. I think the majority can be laid at the coaches feet.

that's the whole point. you change coaches, westbrook is the same. these bad habits are enabled by the organization. it's time to move on imo. russ was outplayed this series by a rookie. until game 5 he was outplayed by ricky freaking rubio. and it's not because of lack of talent on his part, it's because his game is predicated on vendettas, the chip on his shoulder, etc.

these are things you do not have to accept. the thunder and fans have yielded to westbrook on these matters for years, and only made them more permissible and stronger post-kd. it's not healthy for the team.

Right, this is a system failure, like I said. I think we are actually reaching the same conclusion here, just from a different angle.

[Old Man Game]

Read on Twitter

Oh Royce...

Never. Stop. Sunshine. Pumping.

[This is news to KD by the way, leaving on a sour note.]

[spearsy23]

it should be. because we had hca this series and lost it b/c westbrook decided not to show up until game 5. george had an atrocious game today but was having a great series before it. westbrook deserves as much blame as anyone for his poor play until the team was on the brink of elimination.

No, it shouldn’t be. This is a system failure, not an individual player failure.

i don't agree. i think russ as an individual allowed himself to be taken out of his game by rubio, gobert and the jazz for the majority of this series. go back to this threat prior to game 5. i don't think any thunder fan wasn't on board with this. russ was culpable for much of the poor play on offense and defense for the bulk of this series. he won game 5 single handed, and kept us in this one. we might not have been in this situation in the first place had his head been screwed on straight to start. it's russ' biggest weakness as a player.

The question is rather or not there's a guy out there who can reign that in without taking away what makes him great. You probably can't fault Donovan for not sitting him in the playoffs, but he's had 240 regular season games to try to get through and instead has given him carte blanche mostly because he isn't able to get a working offense without Westbrook on the floor, including when he had Durant and kanter which is a pretty damn good offensive pairing.

[bondom34]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

[slick_watts]

But that’s Russ, he is what he is. You take it or leave it, for better or worse. Point is, despite his shortcomings, he showed up tonight. I’m fine if you don’t dig his game, but there is plenty of blame to go around for this. I think the majority can be laid at the coaches feet.

that's the whole point. you change coaches, westbrook is the same. these bad habits are enabled by the organization. it's time to move on imo. russ was outplayed this series by a rookie. until game 5 he was outplayed by ricky freaking rubio. and it's not because of lack of talent on his part, it's because his game is predicated on vendettas, the chip on his shoulder, etc.

these are things you do not have to accept. the thunder and fans have yielded to westbrook on these matters for years, and only made them more permissible and stronger post-kd. it's not healthy for the team.

Right, this is a system failure, like I said. I think we are actually reaching the same conclusion here, just from a different angle.

we need more than a donovan replacement to change these things and if we're doing that might as well tank.

[spearsy23]

i don't agree. i think russ as an individual allowed himself to be taken out of his game by rubio, gobert and the jazz for the majority of this series. go back to this threat prior to game 5. i don't think any thunder fan wasn't on board with this. russ was culpable for much of the poor play on offense and defense for the bulk of this series. he won game 5 single handed, and kept us in this one. we might not have been in this situation in the first place had his head been screwed on straight to start. it's russ' biggest weakness as a player.

But that’s Russ, he is what he is. You take it or leave it, for better or worse. Point is, despite his shortcomings, he showed up tonight. I’m fine if you don’t dig his game, but there is plenty of blame to go around for this. I think the majority can be laid at the coaches feet.

that's the whole point. you change coaches, westbrook is the same.

There's been no indication that Donovan ever tried to get him to change.

russ was outplayed this series by a rookie.

Everyone in the series was outplayed by a rookie.

[Atomic Punk]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

I agree with that assessment. I don’t think he has been right physically all season. With a guy who goes to the deck as often as he does, health is going to be an increasingly problematic situation with him.

[Old Man Game]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

Sure plays like one. For better or worse. He has those moments where we all love him for it as fans. I just don't think big picture it goes anywhere long term. Other than individual accolades I suppose.

[Atomic Punk]

that's the whole point. you change coaches, westbrook is the same. these bad habits are enabled by the organization. it's time to move on imo. russ was outplayed this series by a rookie. until game 5 he was outplayed by ricky freaking rubio. and it's not because of lack of talent on his part, it's because his game is predicated on vendettas, the chip on his shoulder, etc.

these are things you do not have to accept. the thunder and fans have yielded to westbrook on these matters for years, and only made them more permissible and stronger post-kd. it's not healthy for the team.

Right, this is a system failure, like I said. I think we are actually reaching the same conclusion here, just from a different angle.

we need more than a donovan replacement to change these things and if we're doing that might as well tank.

The “system” goes beyond just the head coach in my opinion.

[slick_watts]

No, it shouldn’t be. This is a system failure, not an individual player failure.

i don't agree. i think russ as an individual allowed himself to be taken out of his game by rubio, gobert and the jazz for the majority of this series. go back to this threat prior to game 5. i don't think any thunder fan wasn't on board with this. russ was culpable for much of the poor play on offense and defense for the bulk of this series. he won game 5 single handed, and kept us in this one. we might not have been in this situation in the first place had his head been screwed on straight to start. it's russ' biggest weakness as a player.

The question is rather or not there's a guy out there who can reign that in without taking away what makes him great. You probably can't fault Donovan for not sitting him in the playoffs, but he's had 240 regular season games to try to get through and instead has given him carte blanche mostly because he isn't able to get a working offense without Westbrook on the floor, including when he had Durant and kanter which is a pretty damn good offensive pairing.

i don't think at this point there is with westbrook at 30 years old, etc. and it's clearly not the direction sam ever indented on taking with the team judging by his hiring of donovan in the first place. there's tacit acceptable in the organization for westbrook, and it's great for the community, and team identity and all that stuff. but i don't think it's optimal or really desired from a basketball perspective. this is the main reason i want a culture reset (matt moore stole this term from me) and at that point might as well blow it all up.

[spearsy23]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

He's definitely competitive to the point where it can negatively impact his game.


Also, shouldn't presti absorb some shots for not having a single bench player capable of creating a shot?

[bondom34]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

Sure plays like one. For better or worse. He has those moments where we all love him for it as fans. I just don't think big picture it goes anywhere long term. Other than individual accolades I suppose.

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

[Pillendreher]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

He's definitely competitive to the point where it can negatively impact his game.


Also, shouldn't presti absorb some shots for not having a single bench player capable of creating a shot?

Positive momentum chemistry.

[Atomic Punk]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

He's definitely competitive to the point where it can negatively impact his game.


Also, shouldn't presti absorb some shots for not having a single bench player capable of creating a shot?

Eh, Pesti put all of his eggs in two and a half baskets, he was out of assets really.

[LightTheBeam]

I meant to post this earlier but man Adams is such a class act, love to root for that guy. He got mugged earlier, no call, doesn't look to the refs at all just gets back on defense.

I could only imagine a scenario where the thunder traded the mental midget Durant and kept harden, and ended up getting George. Adams/George/harden/Westbrook would be the favorite this year.

What coulda been if they kept harden over softy

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[slick_watts]

presti is to blame the most. he's fostered this culture, he was behind (ultimately) the hero worship in the summer and the marketing of these stars as a big 3. he hired donovan, a limp-wristed sycophant. it all starts and ends with him. sure he makes decent trades and stuff but it's his culture imperatives that have created this entitled team centered around one player. utah isn't that much better than a healthy thunder team with roberson but they are a lot more fun to watch because they have a culture that's easy to like. the thunder culture was like this before.

[slick_watts]

Also, Russ is not a headcase. And I still think he's hurting.

Sure plays like one. For better or worse. He has those moments where we all love him for it as fans. I just don't think big picture it goes anywhere long term. Other than individual accolades I suppose.

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

[Atomic Punk]

presti is to blame the most. he's fostered this culture, he was behind (ultimately) the hero worship in the summer and the marketing of these stars as a big 3. he hired donovan, a limp-wristed sycophant. it all starts and ends with him. sure he makes decent trades and stuff but it's his culture imperatives that have created this entitled team centered around one player. utah isn't that much better than a healthy thunder team with roberson but they are a lot more fun to watch because they have a culture that's easy to like. the thunder culture was like this before.

So to be clear, are we in agreement that this is a system failure?

[bondom34]

Sure plays like one. For better or worse. He has those moments where we all love him for it as fans. I just don't think big picture it goes anywhere long term. Other than individual accolades I suppose.

In OKC?

No, because theres no avenue to build around him unless PG stays, and he's gone.

Elsewhere yeah there is. He was as good as Durant in 16 at the least, and I'd say 15 and 14. They coulda won then. Then Billy came and the roster was bad a year ago. This year was just a wreck. Hope they turn it around, but Russ should go somewhere he can win. I've detached myself enough I don't really care, the whole no team thing helped with that. I'd like to see him anywhere

westbrook better than durant at all in any of these seasons is revisionist history by thunder fans.

No, it's not. It wasn't then, wasn't on the PC board, isn't now. You calling it such shows you just weren't paying attention then.