Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now

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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#21 » by bondom34 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:09 pm

Atomic Punk wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Honesty I kinda miss Kanter. He was willing to take a smaller role.


I miss Kanter the teammate and Kanter the scorer and rebounder. I don’t miss Kanter the defender. That being said, I wish that the coaching staff could have helped him to develop into a semi-competent defender or figured out lineup combinations that could have helped offset his deficiencies. However, as I mentioned in another post, it is hard to hide a defensive liability for long stretches.

I asked this earlier, not sure if anyone saw it (or cares :wink: ) but if Russ had already signed his extension, do you think the Thunder would have traded for Melo? I think Russ signed 4 or 5 days after the trade.

Honestly no idea. Seems like it was a factor, but I couldn't say for sure.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#22 » by slick_watts » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:50 pm

Bill Pidto wrote:They're a winning team without Kanter? How about, they're a winning team. Period. And Kanter has truly been one of the main cogs. He's basically the perfect compliment to KP on offense.


except they are bad when he's in the game.

the knicks offense is better with porzingis in the game without kanter than it is when porzingis is in the game with kanter.

how can you call kanter 'one of the main cogs' if the team is a lot better when he's not in the game?

Bill Pidto wrote:But something tells me we don't need any more stats for this one. Melo is a cancer, and I'm not trying to troll you guys about it. Just warning you, it's only going to get worse.


i'm not big fan of melo but not having kanter around has been a blessing.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#23 » by M2J » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:55 am

Bill Pidto wrote:It's a shame, OKC would have been much better off keeping Kanter and McDermott who have both been excellent for the Knicks. Both have proven to be great team players. Both still have youth and mobility. Both score more efficiently than Melo. Both willing to do the little things to help the team. Keep Westbrook and PG with those guys and I can almost guarantee the Thunder have a better record.

Melo is just living off his name at this point. His game is so one-dimensional and unenjoyable to watch. He sucks so much fun out of the game even for the fans, I can imagine how much fun he sucks out of it for his teammates.

A lot of fans will be fooled by some of the pretty shots he still makes. The jab steps and fadeaways still do it for some people. But if you ask me, the game has totally passed this dude by. Nobody wants to play like that anymore. Teams want to get up and down and move the ball. Everyone wants a little piece of the action. That's how you get the whole team playing scrappy defense. And we all know Melo treats defense like he does passing... it's just a little below his paygrade.

Good luck with this guy and his NTC. I thought if any player in the league besides LeBron or CP3 could keep Melo in line, it would be Westbrook. Maybe not. I do feel bad for Billy Donavan. He may not be a great or even good coach, but if he is, he'll never get a chance to show that with Melo on the roster. Melo will just straight up refuse to do anything that makes him feel uncomfortable. Whether it's try harder, share more, come off the bench, or simply be a willing participant in an offensive system that isn't catered to him.

There can't be a single more delusional player in the NBA. Has he never seen a Warriors game? Has he ever watched the Spurs play? Has he ever watched the way his buddy LeBron has shared the ball throughout his career? I really don't get it with Melo. As a bball junkie, you just wanna grab him by his shoulders and shake some damn sense into him.



Don't know if you are or not. But this sounds like typical Knicks fan/organization garbage to me. ”Right kind of guys”, loving Scrappy players and scrubs, but always turning against their stars. It will be Porzingis next, after he falls for the money and re-signs with the Knicks.

The Knicks had and currently do have a garbage roster, because they are a garbage organization. The blame begins and ends there.

They paid 60 million dollars to a person who intentionally tried to damage their greatest asset and threaten to trade KP7, AND forced coaches who did not want to run his outdated offense (that breeded the isolation that you seem to hate, and slow the game down which limits possessions for which to share the ball) . When his entire purpose was to present a stable winning organization and recruit Talent.

I do think the Knicks look better. Porzingis has clearly taken the step that people hope for, and as he continued to take steps in his first two years. The coach has actually installed his own system. But at the end of the day the team is still at around the same record or worse than they were with Carmelo last year. The so-called disgusting teammate, that was so bad that he helped Porzingis develop his game in his own image, and had teammates taking out full-page ads in newspapers when he left. A guy that is also been a model teammate here.

So pardon me if I don't buy into the thought process that a team would be better off with two career bench role players, that get limited minutes while they're in their prime because they don't deserve more. Once the Knicks start to stick around their .500 mark, and possibly miss the playoffs all together in a terrible Eastern Conference. We will continue to see what they've been seeing for years. A single star, unhappy playing around scrubs while losing and they will blame Porzingis as if it is his fault. While trying to recruit the next Carmelo Anthony, which they will never get. We always see Star players coming to their own and throw out amazing stats as KP is for 13 games. The future is sooooo bright, until the expectations rise and everyone turns on said young player when .500 isn't a surprise anymore. And he starts running for the hills, as fans and local reporters crucify him
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#24 » by sleestak33 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:58 pm

Pillendreher wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:But something tells me we don't need any more stats for this one. Melo is a cancer, and I'm not trying to troll you guys about it. Just warning you, it's only going to get worse.


I'd mutch rather have a great/good player who is difficult in certain regards than a proven liability in Kanter. Kanter is what we call a 'Schönwetterspieler' in German. A guy who looks decent if things don't matter. Get back to us if you're ever so lucky to contend for a title and you're benching Kanter because he's straight up unplayable, yet he's taking up 20 % of your cap or more.


Like when he was "unplayable" agianst the Warriors and Rockets when OKC went 2-11 against those two teams last year? LMAO. Every time one of you guys regurgitates that nonsense spewed from the media it cracks me up. Kanter was invaluable against those two teams because they desperately needed his offense and they had nobody that could guard him over the course of a game. He would have dominated both teams had he played enough minutes. Oh and he's averaging 14 points and 10 rebounds in 25 minutes per game this year for the Knicks but yeah, stats don't matter at all. I don't know why they even keep track. :banghead:
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#25 » by bondom34 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:30 pm

I kinda miss Enes and Doug.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#26 » by Pillendreher » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:22 pm

bondom34 wrote:I kinda miss Enes and Doug.


Image
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#27 » by Rotten Apple » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:29 pm

1. Stop referring to basketball players as Cancer, please I beg some of you just look for better comparisons.

2. The ball stopping- Melo passes the 2nd most times on your team, while also receiving the 4th most passes of anyone(behind Russ, PG and Felton. He also passes more than any Knicks that isn’t a Point Guard.

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PASSES_RECEIVED&dir=1&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Okc

3. As for Isolation he averages 6 a game, 5 shot attempts out of isolation.

One of the reasons for you guys having trouble is Russ pounding the rock early in the shot clock. Your first pass is coming at 12 or 14 seconds far too often when teams like GS and SAS have 3 or 4 by that time. There’s also limited off the ball Movement.

Billy D has to get more creative and get some movement so these guys can get better looks. OP not watching close enough IMO
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#28 » by Rotten Apple » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:34 pm

sleestak33 wrote:Never really watched him play that much in his career (although I still remember him crushing my Sooners in the final 4...that still hurts) but the word on him has always been that he's a ball stopper on offense and he hurts to some degree any offensive flow throughout the game because he almost never looks to pass and now I'm really starting to understand it. Yes, he's a great one on one player and he scores most of the time he goes isolation but he does it so much and their offense completely stops moving once he gets it because they all know he's going to jack it up. For this team to reach its potential he's going to have to start taking better shots and actually looking to pass and keep the ball moving some and as of right now he doesn't look like he has any interest in that. It's funny that the Knicks are now 6-5 and OKC is 4-6 and the common denominator is him. He is only averaging 1.6 assists per game in 32 minutes and he's already jacked up 67 3 pointers in 10 games which is ridiculous. Can Billy Donovan get this guy to change his game to some degree because if he can't they're in for a long season.


You guys lost at the buzzer vs Minny and blew at least 3 games. You could easily be 8-3 right now but that’s the way the ball bounces I guess. Also your offense isn’t designed for anyone but Russ or the other PG to get an assist from What I see.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#29 » by bondom34 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:36 pm

Pillendreher wrote:
bondom34 wrote:I kinda miss Enes and Doug.


Image

They knew who they were. Role players. Melo doesn't.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#30 » by hardenASG13 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:42 pm

slick_watts wrote:
Bill Pidto wrote:They're a winning team without Kanter? How about, they're a winning team. Period. And Kanter has truly been one of the main cogs. He's basically the perfect compliment to KP on offense.


except they are bad when he's in the game.

the knicks offense is better with porzingis in the game without kanter than it is when porzingis is in the game with kanter.

how can you call kanter 'one of the main cogs' if the team is a lot better when he's not in the game?

Bill Pidto wrote:But something tells me we don't need any more stats for this one. Melo is a cancer, and I'm not trying to troll you guys about it. Just warning you, it's only going to get worse.


i'm not big fan of melo but not having kanter around has been a blessing.


Except they aren't bad when he's in the game. According to https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&
(Seems like a reputable site, not some blend put together by some nerd), their most used lineup, which has played 140 minutes, is kanter, porzingis, jack, Hardaway, and lee. The unit has a net rating of +4.6. Their next most used lineup has only played 47 minutes. When kanter has been replaced with o Quinn with the starters, the teams defense is rated considerably worse as is their net rating, which is -14.4. That lineup has only played 14 minutes. Really the only lineup that has played enough to be looked at is the starters, which features kanter as a main piece and is playing well.

Your simply wrong, and grasping at straws here (and a few other places: grant not improving :lol: , Roberson being needed 30mpg, Russell Westbrook being washed up, despite years of great play.) Throw on that Roberson jersey, continue your poor attempt at being Colin cowherd, which nobody is finding funny, and go find some other misleading stats to post.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#31 » by slick_watts » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:00 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:Except they aren't bad when he's in the game. According to https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&
(Seems like a reputable site, not some blend put together by some nerd), their most used lineup, which has played 140 minute


i'm going to be honest. i think it's so cool that you are bringing lineup data into this. i feel like a proud parent.

you're being a little narrow here, though. those 140 minutes comprise a little over half of kanter's minutes with porzingis, and across all lineups porzingis without kanter has performed significantly better-- whether it's o'quinn, small with lance thomas, or otherwise.

the general trend of kanter making lineups worse has been holding true as the knicks (and lineups with porzingis) are better when he's not involved. their most used lineup is performing well because porzingis and the rest of their decent players are present. but porzingis lineups are much better without kanter.

hardenASG13 wrote:Your simply wrong, and grasping at straws here (and a few other places: grant not improving :lol: , Roberson being needed 30mpg, Russell Westbrook being washed up, despite years of great play.) Throw on that Roberson jersey, continue your poor attempt at being Colin cowherd, which nobody is finding funny, and go find some other misleading stats to post.


i think it's interesting you are doing here the thing that you accuse me of doing-- making narrow arguments using slices of statistics that fit the argument.

kanter makes teams worse. that's been true for years and it's true this year on the knicks.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#32 » by hardenASG13 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:12 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Except they aren't bad when he's in the game. According to https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&
(Seems like a reputable site, not some blend put together by some nerd), their most used lineup, which has played 140 minute


i'm going to be honest. i think it's so cool that you are bringing lineup data into this. i feel like a proud parent.

you're being a little narrow here, though. those 140 minutes comprise a little over half of kanter's minutes with porzingis, and across all lineups porzingis without kanter has performed significantly better-- whether it's o'quinn, small with lance thomas, or otherwise.

the general trend of kanter making lineups worse has been holding true as the knicks (and lineups with porzingis) are better when he's not involved. their most used lineup is performing well because porzingis and the rest of their decent players are present. but porzingis lineups are much better without kanter.

hardenASG13 wrote:Your simply wrong, and grasping at straws here (and a few other places: grant not improving :lol: , Roberson being needed 30mpg, Russell Westbrook being washed up, despite years of great play.) Throw on that Roberson jersey, continue your poor attempt at being Colin cowherd, which nobody is finding funny, and go find some other misleading stats to post.


i think it's interesting you are doing here the thing that you accuse me of doing-- making narrow arguments using slices of statistics that fit the argument.

kanter makes teams worse. that's been true for years and it's true this year on the knicks.


It isn't true on the knicks. They have 1 lineup that has played much more than others. Kanter is in it, and averages a double double. The other lineups you refer to have barely played, and as i just showed you there is a dropoff significantly if kanter is replaced in that group, if you want to use the small sample lineups. They are playing better than anyone thought they would, and have a winning record.

Also, I used stats before, when you were trying to use skewed stats to say the thunders defense in the 4th was bad since Roberson doesn't play much there, and showed you despite that, they still had a positive net rating in the 4th (the worse defense doesn't matter). You chose to ignore that though, conveniently. Let's keep watching. The team is starting to click (unsurprisingly to anyone with a bball IQ), and the next step will be figuring out how to use melo and huestis more successfully as they continue to phase out Roberson.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#33 » by slick_watts » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:17 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:It isn't true on the knicks. They have 1 lineup that has played much more than others. Kanter is in it, and averages a double double. The other lineups you refer to have barely played, and as i just showed you there is a dropoff significantly if kanter is replaced in that group, if you want to use the small sample lineups. They are playing better than anyone thought they would, and have a winning record.


the other lineups comprise > 50% of kanter's minutes. you can't just throw that away because you don't like it, and throw away the knicks' minutes without kanter because you don't like it.

i do not care about the knicks record. i care about how they play with kanter in. and it's a lot worse than how they play with him out.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#34 » by hardenASG13 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:24 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:It isn't true on the knicks. They have 1 lineup that has played much more than others. Kanter is in it, and averages a double double. The other lineups you refer to have barely played, and as i just showed you there is a dropoff significantly if kanter is replaced in that group, if you want to use the small sample lineups. They are playing better than anyone thought they would, and have a winning record.


the other lineups comprise > 50% of kanter's minutes. you can't just throw that away because you don't like it, and throw away the knicks' minutes without kanter because you don't like it.

i do not care about the knicks record. i care about how they play with kanter in. and it's a lot worse than how they play with him out.


In the small samples where he plays with scrubs, the team isn't very good. Shocker! He's not a superstar, but a main piece. Why would you expect otherwise. It's not ignoring, it's knowing how to interpret stats. Enough about kanter though, he's gone, wish him the best. Just thought I'd stop you from continuing to spread false statements about him 1 last time.

As for melo, who thread is regarding, he should be used much more as a spot up shooter than an iso scorer, although when he's hot let him go (similar to klay, not as good a shooter but better in the post/mid post). He'll thrive in that role, which requires all shooters on the perimeter (less roberson) and allows Westbrook and George to have the ball more.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#35 » by slick_watts » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:45 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:In the small samples where he plays with scrubs, the team isn't very good.


1/3 of porzingis' minutes have come without kanter and the team is a healthy +20pp100 in those minutes. compared to +2pp100 with kanter. you're ignoring both kanter's minutes away from porzingis (> 50% of his total minutes) and porzingis' minutes away from kanter (> 33% of his total minutes). that's a lot of ignoring.

hardenASG13 wrote:Just thought I'd stop you from continuing to spread false statements about him 1 last time.


you wish.

hardenASG13 wrote:As for melo, who thread is regarding, he should be used much more as a spot up shooter than an iso scorer, although when he's hot let him go (similar to klay, not as good a shooter but better in the post/mid post). He'll thrive in that role, which requires all shooters on the perimeter (less roberson) and allows Westbrook and George to have the ball more.


why are we constructing our team and rotations based on what would make melo most effective? sounds suspiciously like the ideas for kanter.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#36 » by hardenASG13 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:28 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:In the small samples where he plays with scrubs, the team isn't very good.


1/3 of porzingis' minutes have come without kanter and the team is a healthy +20pp100 in those minutes. compared to +2pp100 with kanter. you're ignoring both kanter's minutes away from porzingis (> 50% of his total minutes) and porzingis' minutes away from kanter (> 33% of his total minutes). that's a lot of ignoring.

hardenASG13 wrote:Just thought I'd stop you from continuing to spread false statements about him 1 last time.


you wish.

hardenASG13 wrote:As for melo, who thread is regarding, he should be used much more as a spot up shooter than an iso scorer, although when he's hot let him go (similar to klay, not as good a shooter but better in the post/mid post). He'll thrive in that role, which requires all shooters on the perimeter (less roberson) and allows Westbrook and George to have the ball more.


why are we constructing our team and rotations based on what would make melo most effective? sounds suspiciously like the ideas for kanter.


This team needs it's 3 stars to play well, complementing each other, to win a title. That includes Carmelo being used to his strengths (spot up shooting, hot stretches), as well as the other 2 being used to theirs (handling, drawing and kicking, creating). That's why.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#37 » by slick_watts » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:37 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:This team needs it's 3 stars to play well, complementing each other, to win a title. That includes Carmelo being used to his strengths (spot up shooting, hot stretches), as well as the other 2 being used to theirs (handling, drawing and kicking, creating). That's why.


we're not winning a title, dude.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#38 » by spearsy23 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 am

hardenASG13 wrote: more successfully as they continue to phase out Roberson.

Uh.... You may wanna get your eye test recalibrated, because Roberson's minutes are increasing.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#39 » by nedleeds » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:15 am

hardenASG13 wrote:This team needs it's 3 stars to play well, complementing each other, to win a title. That includes Carmelo being used to his strengths (spot up shooting, hot stretches), as well as the other 2 being used to theirs (handling, drawing and kicking, creating). That's why.


Treating Melo as a star may be where the problem started. Adams is more of a star at this point. Melo should hit open 3s, attack strong close outs and maybe isochuck a little on a second unit. He'll always be a poor defender but you're hoping his offense makes up for it.
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Re: Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now 

Post#40 » by Rotten Apple » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:23 pm

nedleeds wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:This team needs it's 3 stars to play well, complementing each other, to win a title. That includes Carmelo being used to his strengths (spot up shooting, hot stretches), as well as the other 2 being used to theirs (handling, drawing and kicking, creating). That's why.


Treating Melo as a star may be where the problem started. Adams is more of a star at this point. Melo should hit open 3s, attack strong close outs and maybe isochuck a little on a second unit. He'll always be a poor defender but you're hoping his offense makes up for it.


Russ gotta get your offense flowing faster, once that happens this chain of events will take place.

Btw Melo takes 5 isolation shots per game, hardly chucking as you call it.

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