2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[spearsy23]

Lol we've moved to rating players by blocked shots now

What do you think the thunder need defensively from their center? They play a bizarre style of aggressive defense which involves their guards getting beat alot. Do you disagree that a dominant, springy shot blocker that also deters and alters alot of shots would help their style of defense? Or is a slow footed guy who struggles to get off his feet ideal? Admit it or not, but adams is too slow in the pick and roll, just like Perkins before him as well.

Looking at their offense (which you apparently ignored), they both are not strong post up options (adams has like 2 moves, and rarely draws a double.......thats why they go away from him). They are reliant on others (westbrook) to create most of what they do. I'd argue mcgee is superior in the lob game, and adams is very good there. Neither spreads the floor. What are you really losing? Adams is the superior offensive rebounder, averaging 4.7 to mcgee 2.3 in about 12 more minutes a game. So in terms of rate, it's fairly close actually.

What we're doing here is looking for solutions rather that just posting various charts and excel graphs about Schroeder drtgs in various lineups, REPEATEDLY. We get it, they aren't good. However, he's going to play, guys, he's the best player on their bench! Do you suggest he doesn't play?

Maybe it's time to point the finger at adams, as he is arguably a top 12-15 center offensively, and slower than average compared to most other starting centers defensively while providing almost no rim protection. I think it's a problem for the team considering their style and personnel on D. What adams gives is fine for 10 mill a year, not 25! Why does he get a free pass when he's paid to be a star? Most guys who make his $$ are star guards/wings and versatile forwards.

You and others were quick to target Paul george
Earlier this season and his 'deadfoot' when he wasn't playing like a superstar. Westbrook is criticised on here all the time. I'm sick of adams getting a pass because he's funny and has a mustache. He's paid to be a star, and isn't. His contract was a mistake, and is a problem considering how slow he is on defense, and how limited he is on offense. He's very good, but a slow footed defender, who is not much of a rim protector, who relies on others to create his offense and can't shoot outside 10 feet is not the ideal piece to this roster at center they need him to be for his salary, when guys like mcgee get bounced around every year for 1/3 of it. I'm just not afraid to acknowledge the problem, is all.

I don't even know how to respond to this because it's so off base. Steven Adams has been a part of the best defensive lineups in the NBA for the last two years, making some bizarre claim that he's too slow to be a good defender is like saying Steph curry is too small to get his shot off.

You also may have missed where I've repeatedly said I'd trade Adams over the previous two years.

[slick_watts]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

[hardenASG13]

Also here's a good read for you on the efficiency of the
Post up, despite adams ranking 2nd in fg% there with 5 post ups per game (insignificant).
https://shottracker.com/articles/the-endangered-post-up

For those who won't read it, there's alot in there about what NBA teams need from centers today (speed and shot blocking on D, ability to space the floor at least somewhat, score on cuts and lobs), and how inefficient the post up is, making your point about his post up fg% embarrassing.

The only one embarassing himself is you. First you try to make the ridiculous claim that Adams isn't guarded and that he is a bad post up player. Now it's that post ups don't matter.

Out of the 27 Centers that play at least 25 minutes a night, Adams ranks 4th in Team DRtG with the Center on the floor. Maybe go look for problems that actually exist instead of wasting everybody's time with nonsense like this.

Never said he wasn't guarded, said he doesn't draw a double (you said he draws 2, 3 or 4 guys), which he doesn't. You listed his post up fg% as evidence of how good he is on offense. I countered by pointing out the post up isn't a big part of his game, and gave an article diminishing the efficiency of the post up in general. The game has changed, whether you or okc can see it or not.

The problem that exists is that Adams makes way too much money for what he gives the team. He's paid like a star. He's a good player, but far from a star. As such, there is no $$$ for a bench or shooters the team desperately needs. Meanwhile, like it or not, adams being a 0 in rim protection certainly isn't helping. I use mcgee to illustrate how he could be replaced by a guy making much less, while having more $$ to spend on sorely needed rotation pieces. But maybe the bench and lack of NBA level shooting isn't a problem?

[slick_watts]

The problem that exists is that Adams makes way too much money for what he gives the team.

relative to what?

adams is probably overpaid a bit, but not by all that much. there are worse value propositions on our roster than him (schroder, maybe even russ). had sam waited until rfa to re-sign adams maybe we get away with $20 million flat per year or around that.

nobody would care about how much adams was making if the thunder were using dennis schroder's $15.5 million salary slot on a good player.

[Pillendreher]

Never said he wasn't guarded, said he doesn't draw a double (you said he draws 2, 3 or 4 guys), which he doesn't.

Yes, he does, quite regularly in fact. I'm sorry if you can't see it. You should consult with a ophthalmologist.

You listed his post up fg% as evidence of how good he is on offense

No, I did not. I merely rebuked your statement that Adams is "not a strong post up option". Teams have been packing the paint against us and the has found a way to make almost 60 % of his shots being closely guarded by teams.

[hardenASG13]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

[spearsy23]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

Can you substantiate that Adams is a poor rim protector?

[slick_watts]

Never said he wasn't guarded, said he doesn't draw a double (you said he draws 2, 3 or 4 guys), which he doesn't.

i don't think you actually watch games. which is funny because this is what you accuse people of when you want to discredit stats. adams gets a lot of attention against certain teams, mostly teams that do not have a big guy stronger than him (most teams). here is a a play from the clippers game where they doubled adams repeatedly.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

and of course adams get a lot of attention when he gets an offensive rebound. teams forget about everyone else on the court. like this play.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

[slick_watts]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

being an elite rim protector is not his role in our defense and is not his strength as a defensive player. he's not bad at protecting the rim. he's very similar to clint capela defensively, a mobile, smart, center fielding big who will induce the opponent into committing a lot of turnovers. plenty of really poor defensive players have great rim protection stats, because you don't need a brain to go after every shot at the rim.

if you swapped adams for mcgee our team would get more blocks, but it'd be far worse on defense because javalle mcgee might be the dumbest center in the nba and adams one of the smartest. this is also why nerlens noel is currently playing for league minimum. especially without dre, adams is the defense qb.

[SecondTake]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

being an elite rim protector is not his role in our defense and is not his strength as a defensive player. he's not bad at protecting the rim. he's very similar to clint capela defensively, a mobile, smart, center fielding big who will induce the opponent into committing a lot of turnovers. plenty of really poor defensive players have great rim protection stats, because you don't need a brain to go after every shot at the rim.

if you swapped adams for mcgee our team would get more blocks, but it'd be far worse on defense because javalle mcgee might be the dumbest center in the nba and adams one of the smartest. this is also why nerlens noel is currently playing for league minimum. especially without dre, adams is the defense qb.

You're saying Noel is as dumb as Mcgee?

[slick_watts]

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

being an elite rim protector is not his role in our defense and is not his strength as a defensive player. he's not bad at protecting the rim. he's very similar to clint capela defensively, a mobile, smart, center fielding big who will induce the opponent into committing a lot of turnovers. plenty of really poor defensive players have great rim protection stats, because you don't need a brain to go after every shot at the rim.

if you swapped adams for mcgee our team would get more blocks, but it'd be far worse on defense because javalle mcgee might be the dumbest center in the nba and adams one of the smartest. this is also why nerlens noel is currently playing for league minimum. especially without dre, adams is the defense qb.

You're saying Noel is as dumb as Mcgee?

yes. i like nerlens noel. but there's a reason he's playing for league minimum and could not play for carlisle.

[hardenASG13]

keep digging.

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

Adams isn't the problem, it's Donovans stupid scheme thats the problem. His scheme seems to work with the starters who actually know how to defend, but as soon as the 2nd unit comes on it falls apart. He really should have a separate defensive scheme for the second unit that does not entail the big showing on the P&R, because that second unit cant help rotate to save its life. They're always out of position and constantly being beat, leaving the big on an island.

I agree, the scheme is a big part of the problem there. But, they've had this scheme seemingly forever, dating back to brooks. If they aren't going to change it, wouldn't a more agile shot blocker help. Adams is a wall body to body in the post, but most teams are drastically going away from posting up there 5 men, instead using them in high screen and roll options or to stretch the floor, as more and more of them can drive and shoot, at least to midrange.

[hardenASG13]

i don't think hardenASG13 knows what pick and roll defense is.

your argument seems to be you would like to acquire as good as or better player than steven adams for less money. i don't think anyone here would argue with that, or really argue with that when it comes to any player. javalle mcgee is poor example, though. you should have used clint capela.

rating defense on blocks is weird. do you think kevin garnett was a bad defensive player, too?

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

Can you substantiate that Adams is a poor rim protector?

Already did

[slick_watts]

Don't think they need a rim protector with their gambling style defense? McGee can catch lobs and hit a middle hook shot, too. He also makes alot less than 100 million. It's alot to pay for a slow footed center, who can't shoot, on a team without shooters, that gambles all the time on D. That offensive rebounding and screen setting though......

Adams isn't the problem, it's Donovans stupid scheme thats the problem. His scheme seems to work with the starters who actually know how to defend, but as soon as the 2nd unit comes on it falls apart. He really should have a separate defensive scheme for the second unit that does not entail the big showing on the P&R, because that second unit cant help rotate to save its life. They're always out of position and constantly being beat, leaving the big on an island.

I agree, the scheme is a big part of the problem there. But, they've had this scheme seemingly forever, dating back to brooks. If they aren't going to change it, wouldn't a more agile shot blocker help. Adams is a wall body to body in the post, but most teams are drastically going away from posting up there 5 men, instead using them in high screen and roll options or to stretch the floor, as more and more of them can drive and shoot, at least to midrange.

adams is one of the best in the league defending both the pick and roll and on the perimeter. you are wildly off base here. those are like, his best strengths. you realize that adam is part of not one but 2 of the top 5 defensive lineups in the entire nba, right?

[hardenASG13]

Never said he wasn't guarded, said he doesn't draw a double (you said he draws 2, 3 or 4 guys), which he doesn't.

i don't think you actually watch games. which is funny because this is what you accuse people of when you want to discredit stats. adams gets a lot of attention against certain teams, mostly teams that do not have a big guy stronger than him (most teams). here is a a play from the clippers game where they doubled adams repeatedly.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

and of course adams get a lot of attention when he gets an offensive rebound. teams forget about everyone else on the court. like this play.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

You are someone who repeatedly wants large sample sizes, but as so quick to use insignificant stats like your most used lineup data the other day, or in this case, isolated videos. These are one play samples. Of course he is doubled occasionally, especially when the other team has no center. It's not a common occurrence, as teams are content to let adams beat them in the post. I know he gets swarmed when he gets an offensive board. I've said as much and factored it into my evaluation of him

[slick_watts]

Never said he wasn't guarded, said he doesn't draw a double (you said he draws 2, 3 or 4 guys), which he doesn't.

i don't think you actually watch games. which is funny because this is what you accuse people of when you want to discredit stats. adams gets a lot of attention against certain teams, mostly teams that do not have a big guy stronger than him (most teams). here is a a play from the clippers game where they doubled adams repeatedly.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

and of course adams get a lot of attention when he gets an offensive rebound. teams forget about everyone else on the court. like this play.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

You are someone who repeatedly wants large sample sizes, but as so quick to use insignificant stats like your most used lineup data the other day, or in this case, isolated videos. These are one play samples. Of course he is doubled occasionally, especially when the other team has no center. It's not a common occurrence, as teams are content to let adams beat them in the post. I know he gets swarmed when he gets an offensive board. I've said as much and factored it into my evaluation of him

so we went from doesn't draw a double to of course he is doubled occasionally. how many clips of adams being doubled in the post until we move the goal posts again?

[SecondTake]

being an elite rim protector is not his role in our defense and is not his strength as a defensive player. he's not bad at protecting the rim. he's very similar to clint capela defensively, a mobile, smart, center fielding big who will induce the opponent into committing a lot of turnovers. plenty of really poor defensive players have great rim protection stats, because you don't need a brain to go after every shot at the rim.

if you swapped adams for mcgee our team would get more blocks, but it'd be far worse on defense because javalle mcgee might be the dumbest center in the nba and adams one of the smartest. this is also why nerlens noel is currently playing for league minimum. especially without dre, adams is the defense qb.

You're saying Noel is as dumb as Mcgee?

yes. i like nerlens noel. but there's a reason he's playing for league minimum and could not play for carlisle.

Yeah but his injury history is the main reason for that. I havent checked in a few weeks, but werent his defensive numbers with the thunder exceptional most of the year til injury?

[slick_watts]

You're saying Noel is as dumb as Mcgee?

yes. i like nerlens noel. but there's a reason he's playing for league minimum and could not play for carlisle.

Yeah but his injury history is the main reason for that. I havent checked in a few weeks, but werent his defensive numbers with the thunder exceptional most of the year til injury?

noel is insanely disruptive and his effectiveness on defense is contingent on those disruptions creating instability for the opponent, but it can sometimes create instability for us as well. i like him in his current role, and he's effective in it. but his role is to be kinda dumb on defense and try to just get steals and blocks. you can't start nerlens noel on a good team and have him defend this way.

[hardenASG13]

i don't think you actually watch games. which is funny because this is what you accuse people of when you want to discredit stats. adams gets a lot of attention against certain teams, mostly teams that do not have a big guy stronger than him (most teams). here is a a play from the clippers game where they doubled adams repeatedly.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

and of course adams get a lot of attention when he gets an offensive rebound. teams forget about everyone else on the court. like this play.

Gfycat Video - Click to Play

You are someone who repeatedly wants large sample sizes, but as so quick to use insignificant stats like your most used lineup data the other day, or in this case, isolated videos. These are one play samples. Of course he is doubled occasionally, especially when the other team has no center. It's not a common occurrence, as teams are content to let adams beat them in the post. I know he gets swarmed when he gets an offensive board. I've said as much and factored it into my evaluation of him

so we went from doesn't draw a double to of course he is doubled occasionally. how many clips of adams being doubled in the post until we move the goal posts again?

No we didn't go anywhere. Saying he doesn't draw a double implies the word regularly into the sentence, when discussing post players in basketball. Of course he does occasionally , all post guys do. They are 7 feet tall and catch the ball 8 feet from the basket sometimes. Adams doesn't consistently get doubled on the catch in the post, which would lead me to describe him as someone who doesn't draw a double. Get it?

[spearsy23]

It's way less money. I'm not rating anyone's defense on anything. I'm saying I think okc could badly use a rim protector on defense, as adams is significantly below average in that area, based on the personnel of the current team, as other teams get past the guards and wings we roll out there alot .

Can you substantiate that Adams is a poor rim protector?

Already did

No, blocks aren't necessarily indicative of rim protection. Draymond is an excellent rim protector and was never a big block guy.

To be clear, I'm open to the idea that Steven isn't a great rim protector, i'd just like to see proof.