Thunder Offseason Thread

[ThunderBolt]

the time to blow it up was after kd left. they've invested too much, now. what's another two seasons? people who opposed tanking at the time. they're the ones complaining they can't even watch the team the last couple years without getting angry or upset. interesting how that works. we could be 2-3 seasons into a re-build right now.

While I agree with you that the optimal time to blow it up was the summer durant left I disagree that there'd be no point now. No one is getting any younger here.

The only thing with blowing it up then would have meant no extension for WB? Seems like after the trauma and anger of KD leaving, the team wanted to retain WB at all costs which means accommodating him in any way. That meant having him go on that MVP run and no OkC fan here would entertain that he shot too much, which was one of the problems when KD was there.

Also meant with Oladipo and Sabonis, they believed they could contend in WBs MVP season. Plus they wanted him to sign that extension as opposed to possibly go home to one of the LA teams.

Then the following year, they won the PG13 sweepstakes.

But I can see why the team didn’t want to blow it up s8nce they still had a multiple all star — not sure if he had made all NBA by that point. And they wanted to keep him at all costs after losing KD for nothing.

uhhh, what?

[Dadouv47]

While I agree with you that the optimal time to blow it up was the summer durant left I disagree that there'd be no point now. No one is getting any younger here.

The only thing with blowing it up then would have meant no extension for WB? Seems like after the trauma and anger of KD leaving, the team wanted to retain WB at all costs which means accommodating him in any way. That meant having him go on that MVP run and no OkC fan here would entertain that he shot too much, which was one of the problems when KD was there.

Also meant with Oladipo and Sabonis, they believed they could contend in WBs MVP season. Plus they wanted him to sign that extension as opposed to possibly go home to one of the LA teams.

Then the following year, they won the PG13 sweepstakes.

But I can see why the team didn’t want to blow it up s8nce they still had a multiple all star — not sure if he had made all NBA by that point. And they wanted to keep him at all costs after losing KD for nothing.

uhhh, what?

''whaaaa?t'' as well. If I should pick one year we had absolutely no chance of contending since 2011 (and the team didn't even tried), it's clearly 2017.

[acheema0]

Do we have any idea when Presti speaks?

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[wco81]

While I agree with you that the optimal time to blow it up was the summer durant left I disagree that there'd be no point now. No one is getting any younger here.

The only thing with blowing it up then would have meant no extension for WB? Seems like after the trauma and anger of KD leaving, the team wanted to retain WB at all costs which means accommodating him in any way. That meant having him go on that MVP run and no OkC fan here would entertain that he shot too much, which was one of the problems when KD was there.

Also meant with Oladipo and Sabonis, they believed they could contend in WBs MVP season. Plus they wanted him to sign that extension as opposed to possibly go home to one of the LA teams.

Then the following year, they won the PG13 sweepstakes.

But I can see why the team didn’t want to blow it up s8nce they still had a multiple all star — not sure if he had made all NBA by that point. And they wanted to keep him at all costs after losing KD for nothing.

uhhh, what?

I distinctly remember threads here when the subject of his usage rate came up and there were posts along the line of "I don't want to hear about him shooting too much."

To be fair, he hit some big hero shots, like a long 3 at Denver when the Thunder had to make a big run to lock up their playoff spot.

Because shot selection has always been a question with WB, before and after KD left.

[ThunderBolt]

The only thing with blowing it up then would have meant no extension for WB? Seems like after the trauma and anger of KD leaving, the team wanted to retain WB at all costs which means accommodating him in any way. That meant having him go on that MVP run and no OkC fan here would entertain that he shot too much, which was one of the problems when KD was there.

Also meant with Oladipo and Sabonis, they believed they could contend in WBs MVP season. Plus they wanted him to sign that extension as opposed to possibly go home to one of the LA teams.

Then the following year, they won the PG13 sweepstakes.

But I can see why the team didn’t want to blow it up s8nce they still had a multiple all star — not sure if he had made all NBA by that point. And they wanted to keep him at all costs after losing KD for nothing.

uhhh, what?

I distinctly remember threads here when the subject of his usage rate came up and there were posts along the line of "I don't want to hear about him shooting too much."

To be fair, he hit some big hero shots, like a long 3 at Denver when the Thunder had to make a big run to lock up their playoff spot.

Because shot selection has always been a question with WB, before and after KD left.

"Distinctly remember threads" and "no OKC fan here would entertain that he shot too much" are not the same thing. I specifically remember when OKC lost this game. http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400900341&wsVar=us~nba~gamepackage,desktop,en

There was plenty of discussion about how many shots he took. It's not surprising he had less criticism when he was shooting better and the advanced stats supported his impact. Let's not group all OKC fans into one category in regard to Westbrook's game. He has plenty of critics that are thunder fans both then and now.

[SecondTake]

the way westbrook answers these questions.. man it just seems like he doesn't get it. he talks about shooting and 'other things like rebounding' as if they are equivalent. he's too dismissive for someone who shot the ball so poorly.

He doesn't get it. I doubt he has anyone in his life or with the team who has the standing to tell him either.

I don't think that's true. WB is never going to zone in on a single thing in an interview like this and say THAT's what I'm going to improve coming in to next year. Because if he fails then the media, fans and opponents will all use it as ammunition against him.

I'm sure he's going to try working on his shot. Maybe he'll succeed, maybe he won't. But he's not going to tell you guys what his priorities are, because there's nothing to gain from it. If he shoots well next season people will notice and give him credit for it. Then he can come out and say I've been working on this all summer". If he sucks, well, he never promised he's going to improve it to begin with.

[Kizz Fastfists]

He has said numerous times that he has worked on his 3pt shooting. It hasn't changed anything about it on the court or anything said about it.

[SecondTake]

He has said numerous times that he has worked on his 3pt shooting. It hasn't changed anything about it on the court or anything said about it.

That's probably why he doesn't want to point it out as a focus anymore.

[Kizz Fastfists]

He has said numerous times that he has worked on his 3pt shooting. It hasn't changed anything about it on the court or anything said about it.

That's probably why he doesn't want to point it out as a focus anymore.

He did it earlier this season when he made a big deal about staying late at the arena shooting 3s.

[SecondTake]

He has said numerous times that he has worked on his 3pt shooting. It hasn't changed anything about it on the court or anything said about it.

That's probably why he doesn't want to point it out as a focus anymore.

He did it earlier this season when he made a big deal about staying late at the arena shooting 3s.

Yeah and then he managed to break all 3 point shooting records...at how bad a player can be. I don't see him going out on a limb after getting humiliated and putting up historically bad numbers and inviting the attention come next season about his 3 point shooting.

[petros93]

Man Russ on 16-17 regular season looked like prime mj. For real he was winning us games all by his own. He made crazy shots and was the clutchest player in the nba that year. Anyway.

This year in particular he wasn't athletic, he wasn't dunking on people like he usually did and on top of that he shot poorly from 3 and from the free throw line. Also his handles seemed off. Clearly this has been the worst season of his career (although even like that he managed to break some records and had a 20-20-20 game let's not forget that) but everyone is so exaggerating. And I get it coming from the media but the fans should support the team's leader for all these years in a time he's struggling. Okc is a small market team and you guys act like it's soccer Real Madrid that is the biggest club in the world and above every player. I trust Russ to come back stronger next year. Last two season getting overplayed against Rubio and now Dame have been an embarrassment for him and you guys think he doesn't recognize that? Like he needs someone around him to tell him that? It's obvious. If we feel bad about the last two seasons imagine how bad Russ and pg feel. But what do you expect them to tell the media? That we failed and we sucked? Of course they're gonna give these answers. No way imo the right thing to do is rebuild I think that's crazy to even say.

But there need to be some changes. Adams can't be making 25 mil to sit on the bench and take six shots. I don't care how loved he is he has to be traded. Shrooder with that big contract too. We need shooters everyone recognizes that. If all we do is play iso on Russ and pg since our coach is useless at least give them the opportunity to kick it out to a shooter.

[Kizz Fastfists]

This year in particular he wasn't athletic, he wasn't dunking on people like he usually did and on top of that he shot poorly from 3 and from the free throw line. Also his handles seemed off. Clearly this has been the worst season of his career.

Four knee operations and turning 30 will drain the athleticism from a NBA player. It isn't going to magically come back. His knees are not magically going to heal from him playing the sport that is the hardest on knees. Russ was always going to crash at some point because his game is based on pure athleticism with very little traditional basketball skill involved. He isn't Steve Nash or Steph Curry where when they lose a step they can still shoot, move without the ball and create passing lanes. Russ is a wrecking ball that has torn down too many buildings and has been chipped until it no longer clears skyscrapers it just knocks down a wall in a one story house.

It isn't Russ' fault. He is human and this is basic human biology. It is why this was easily predictable. Russ will continue to show flashes of who he used to be. Those great games will show up less often and the bad games will show up more often. That is how decline works. He doesn't stop having great games he just has less of them and overall he is a lesser player. We saw that starting in '17-'18 and we saw it at a level this year where it can't be denied. Unless you think he never got healthy after missing time early in the season and you think he just needs to get healthy to return to being Russ of '17-'18 then you have to acknowledge he is declining. If you think he was playing hurt all season then you probably need to be calling for the firing for Presti, Donovan and the medical staff for not making him sit until healthy so OKC would have a chance at getting past the 1st round.

[petros93]

Four knee operations and turning 30 will drain the athleticism from a NBA player. It isn't going to magically come back. His knees are not magically going to heal from him playing the sport that is the hardest on knees. Russ was always going to crash at some point because his game is based on pure athleticism with very little traditional basketball skill involved. He isn't Steve Nash or Steph Curry where when they lose a step they can still shoot, move without the ball and create passing lanes. Russ is a wrecking ball that has torn down too many buildings and has been chipped until it no longer clears skyscrapers it just knocks down a wall in a one story house.

It isn't Russ' fault. He is human and this is basic human biology. It is why this was easily predictable. Russ will continue to show flashes of who he used to be. Those great games will show up less often and the bad games will show up more often. That is how decline works. He doesn't stop having great games he just has less of them and overall he is a lesser player. We saw that starting in '17-'18 and we saw it at a level this year where it can't be denied. Unless you think he never got healthy after missing time early in the season and you think he just needs to get healthy to return to being Russ of '17-'18 then you have to acknowledge he is declining. If you think he was playing hurt all season then you probably need to be calling for the firing for Presti, Donovan and the medical staff for not making him sit until healthy so OKC would have a chance at getting past the 1st round.

Totally get what you're saying man. But I believe Russell Westbrook on age 31 can be super effective with his court vision, his effort and his leadership. Give me a Russ that doesn't take stupid 3 pointers when he's not hot, shoots 80% from the line, averages 11 assists and 7 rebounds along with 25 points and I don't care about him dunking on people. Russ had to shoot stupid shots sometimes since nobody around him was willing to shoot when pg was resting. Nobody was moving, nobody was able to create his shot, no play was called. The team is badly constracted. And it's all on Russ? Have a team around him that can shoot. I still believe Russ at age 31 with pg if used right will bring you a championship and Russ be the finals mvp. Thing is the way this team is constructed neither Russ nor Pg look good. It all goes back to Presti and Donovan. I'm not saying Russ is not to blame too but the biggest problem are these two.

[ThunderBolt]

So one postseason of embarrassment wasn’t enough. He needed a second?

[Kizz Fastfists]

Give me a Russ that doesn't take stupid 3 pointers when he's not hot, shoots 80% from the line, averages 11 assists and 7 rebounds along with 25 points and I don't care about him dunking on people.

That player has never been seen. There was never a time when Russ didn't take stupid 3s and lots of them. Even when OKC was making the Finals he did that. His FT shooting is shot because his legs are shot. He will have to completely learn how to shoot FTs again to have a chance to get back to 75%. His legs are done. His shooting is done unless he completely reinvents his shooting motion so it isn't a flat shot that is dependent on leg lift. He is too old to completely teach his muscles how to shoot from scratch. He is not disciplined enough to retrain the muscle memory of his shooting motion.

[petros93]

Give me a Russ that doesn't take stupid 3 pointers when he's not hot, shoots 80% from the line, averages 11 assists and 7 rebounds along with 25 points and I don't care about him dunking on people.

That player has never been seen. There was never a time when Russ didn't take stupid 3s and lots of them. Even when OKC was making the Finals he did that. His FT shooting is shot because his legs are shot. He will have to completely learn how to shoot FTs again to have a chance to get back to 75%. His legs are done. His shooting is done unless he completely reinvents his shooting motion so it isn't a flat shot that is dependent on leg lift. He is too old to completely teach his muscles how to shoot from scratch. He is not disciplined enough to retrain the muscle memory of his shooting motion.

Idk man. Maybe you're right. Time will tell for sure. I still have faith in Russ becoming a player that can win under the right circumstances. Maybe I'm delusional like lebron fans thinking he's still the best and can win with the Lakers. I can acknowledge that at least.

[Dn4sty]

Does adding guys like Anthony Tolliver and TJ Warren raise the ceiling of this team

[Kizz Fastfists]

Does adding guys like Anthony Tolliver and TJ Warren raise the ceiling of this team

No. Tolliver would be a solid signing for the tax MLE for a big off the bench. Warren you'd have to give value for and would probably cost you a current rotation player so it might be a slight step forward, but enough since his role would be so limited. Think of it like adding Noel. You add a solid piece, but their role isn't going to be enough to notice a real difference between Dakari and Noel over the regular season in the win total just like you won't see the difference between Tolliver and Patterson/Morris. The roles are so small that the minor gains are negated by Russ' continued decline.

The first step in raising the ceiling is finding Russ a pair of good knees. If you can do that then we can worry about step 2.

[Dn4sty]

Does adding guys like Anthony Tolliver and TJ Warren raise the ceiling of this team

No. Tolliver would be a solid signing for the tax MLE for a big off the bench. Warren you'd have to give value for and would probably cost you a current rotation player so it might be a slight step forward, but enough since his role would be so limited. Think of it like adding Noel. You add a solid piece, but their role isn't going to be enough to notice a real difference between Dakari and Noel over the regular season in the win total just like you won't see the difference between Tolliver and Patterson/Morris. The roles are so small that the minor gains are negated by Russ' continued decline.

The first step in raising the ceiling is finding Russ a pair of good knees. If you can do that then we can worry about step 2.

I seriously doubt Tolliver get anything more than a vet minimum.

I also don’t think this trade is crazy

Schroder and 21

For

Warren and 32

[slick_watts]

Does adding guys like Anthony Tolliver and TJ Warren raise the ceiling of this team

No. Tolliver would be a solid signing for the tax MLE for a big off the bench. Warren you'd have to give value for and would probably cost you a current rotation player so it might be a slight step forward, but enough since his role would be so limited. Think of it like adding Noel. You add a solid piece, but their role isn't going to be enough to notice a real difference between Dakari and Noel over the regular season in the win total just like you won't see the difference between Tolliver and Patterson/Morris. The roles are so small that the minor gains are negated by Russ' continued decline.

The first step in raising the ceiling is finding Russ a pair of good knees. If you can do that then we can worry about step 2.

I seriously doubt Tolliver get anything more than a vet minimum.

I also don’t think this trade is crazy

Schroder and 21

For

Warren and 32

phoenix is one of numerous teams which could have had schroder for free last summer. i don't see him being a hot commodity, at least for any team that could have acquired him last summer and chose not to.