WCQF: Oklahoma City Thunder vs Houston Rockets | P1

[NaturalThunder]

I don't remember all his stats at very low rated Division 3 Emerson but I seem to recall he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter. He was eventually a 23 -24 yr old senior there after a redshirt transfer.

Do you remember some of his stats? Did you go to Emerson at the same time as Presti? You seem to have some recollection of his college career at a DIII school that I don't think exists anywhere in the annals of basketball history.

[mr570]

Bruh what is this quitting attitude. Donovan lost this game. Gallo didn't play a single minute in the 4th. WTF

Not sure if you watched the other 3 quarters or not, but Gallinari was beyond terrible. He was 0/5 from the floor and had 4 turnovers. This was, without a doubt, his worst game in a Thunder uniform and arguably the worst game of his career.

Like I said, he has no place in the offense. There's no ball movement so, being one of OKC's only three point shooters, his man is always sticking to him. Given that there's no action at all beyond drives from the three guards we have to hope to God there's a breakdown in the defense and Gallo's guy leaves him so he can actually attempt a catch and shoot three!

[NaturalThunder]

Excuse the oncoming novel. I'm at a complete and total loss in regards to this game. From the coaching decision, the usual deep-seeded, long-standing Presti infatuations, and the extremely poor play of several players, I am as baffled as I've ever been during this four season stretch of first round exits. Also, you're going to get a really transparent view into what will mostly likely seem like a rambling, semi-incoherent view of my streaming-conscious. It's Saturday, there was a Thunder playoff game...I opened beer number one earlier than a regular Saturday.

I'm not even sure where to start. Covid and the bubble have created extremely unique circumstances. Some players, on every team, have made "next year improvements". Some players are still in early season form because, for all intents and purposes, this is almost the equivalent of preseason/early season time. And, obviously, no one is enjoying homecourt advantage. No matter what comes from these playoffs, this champion will likely not be held in the same esteem as past champions. However, some things are the same; very notably is what we're seeing from OKC.

"Presti or Donovan?" has now turned into a longstanding tradition in Thunder circles. Who's the real problem? It's akin to the "chicken or the egg?" Regardless, the same troubling trends are rearing their ugly head for the Thunder in this bubble playoff series. For the fourth straight playoff series, Billy Donovan shows an inability to diagnose problems mid-game and mid-series and make necessary adjustments. As someone said on the General Board, Rick Carlisle will play a player 20-25 MPG in one series, and then keep the same player on the bench the entirety of the next series if the matchup dictates. Donovan insists on sticking with the status-quo no matter what. It's infuriatingly mind-boggling at this point. We just thought Scott Brooks was hardheaded, but he doesn't hold a candle to Donovan. Year after year in the playoffs, Donovan puts lineups and players on the floor for big minutes, even though he has irrefutable evidence that said lineups and players cannot play in that series. His insistence to stick with Dort+Adams lineups in this series is enough to make me want to quit Thunder basketball. We're playing a team who constantly has a lineup of five 6'7" and under wings and guards on the floor, all of whom are capable three-point shooters, and he wants to stick with a traditional, no-range center, plus an all-defense, no-offense wing who the other team doesn't even bother defending. We're five games into this series and he still hasn't figured out Dort+Adams provides less than zero spacing and absolutely does not work. This is purely based on the eye-test, and the on/off numbers may not support my claim, but it seems painfully obvious at this point.

And why was nothing ever said to Dort in today's game? Why didn't Donovan bench him or give him an earful and tell him to stop shooting or, at the very least, try to attack the basket? The latter isn't ideal, because Dort proved a handful of times that even though he's more capable of slithering his way through the defense than a Roberson, Thabo, Ferguson, or Diallo, his decision making and ability to do anything off the bounce is woefully lacking. The fact that Dort led our the team in FGA tells me all I need to know about Donvan. Billy sat back and watched Dort jack up 16 shots, making only three of them while missing all nine of this three-point attempts, and didn't seem to have a problem with it. The Rockets made their gameplan extremely obvious from the opening tip: completely ignore Dort when they were on defense and dare him to shoot. And time and time again, Dort jacked up brick after brick. There was zero willingness from Donovan to say or change something...ANYTHING! It wasn't even an ingenious game plan by D'Antoni. It just seems like the books is out on the Thunder and Donovan, and opposing coaches know the Thunder are going to play a wing/guard heavy minutes who is less than a zero threat on offense. At the same time, our ball movement and offensive flow is non-existent for extremely long stretches; and that's been the case for four straight playoff series now, all ending in 1st round exits (unless something miraculous happens in game 6 and possibly game 7.

At the same time, a lot of this is on Presti. How he hasn't realized how to build a roster capable of competing in the playoffs is inexplicable at this point. He continues to stockpile wings who can't shoot or do anything off the dribble. As such, Donovan, as wholly incompetent as he is in so many ways, has very little roster/lineup flexibility. For Dort's minutes, Donovan basically has to choose between Dort, Ferguson, Diallo, or Roberson who hasn't played in nearly two years. None of the aforementioned players can shoot, and none of them can do anything off the bounce.

And while Dort was the rightful goat for today's game, holy hell how bad were Gallinari and SGA? Gallinari was 0/5 from the floor and had four turnovers. SGA was 2/8 with four turnovers. Which means we had three starters combine to shoot 5/29 from the floor, 0/16 from three, and commit 10 turnovers. And as we all know, we only have to competent bench players in Schroder and Noel, but Noel, like Adams, is pretty much unplayable in this series. Once again, thanks to Presti's ineptitude, we have a severely limited roster. A roster nowhere near capable of competing at a high level against good competition in a playoff series.

To the one or two of you that have made it this far in my post, I thank you for riding it out to the end. If I had something to give you I would.

[NaturalThunder]

Bruh what is this quitting attitude. Donovan lost this game. Gallo didn't play a single minute in the 4th. WTF

Not sure if you watched the other 3 quarters or not, but Gallinari was beyond terrible. He was 0/5 from the floor and had 4 turnovers. This was, without a doubt, his worst game in a Thunder uniform and arguably the worst game of his career.

Like I said, he has no place in the offense. There's no ball movement so, being one of OKC's only three point shooters, his man is always sticking to him. Given that there's no action at all beyond drives from the three guards we have to hope to God there's a breakdown in the defense and Gallo's guy leaves him so he can actually attempt a catch and shoot three!

You're right. Gallinari's woes aren't all his fault. Was he beyond awful today? Sure. But we are still trying to employ archaic basketball strategies and personnel in a modern NBA heavily centered on spacing and 3P shooting.

[getrichordie]

I'm at a loss with Donovan right now. He kept Dort in for nearly the entire damn 1st quarter while he continued to shoot us out of the game. I don't even know anymore what to think. I don't know what's worse: the fact that Presti thinks non-shooting, athletic, defensive-minded wings is the way to go in today's NBA, or the fact that Donovan apparently doesn't have the ability to make adjustments in playoff series.

It's 2-2 in a f***ing playoff series, and it's like Donovan is experimenting and just waiting for Dort to "shoot his way out of it". He's a bleeping 27% 3P shooter! He's not gonna shoot himself out of it Billy!

I mean... who are you subbing in for Dort? Whoever you sub in is going get torched by Harden and any offensive upside by pulling Dort is going to negated by Harden's onslaught on our D.

[getrichordie]

I don't remember all his stats at very low rated Division 3 Emerson but I seem to recall he wasn't much of a 3 point shooter. He was eventually a 23 -24 yr old senior there after a redshirt transfer.

Do you remember some of his stats? Did you go to Emerson at the same time as Presti? You seem to have some recollection of his college career at a DIII school that I don't think exists anywhere in the annals of basketball history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerson_College

[jambalaya]

I dug for Presti's stats at Virginia Wesleyan where he barely played and Emerson. I might have dug harder than anyone else ever has. I actually found real stuff (certain season stats) in some deep background NCAA files but it was 8-10 years ago. I don't lie. I reported some at Daily Thunder back then. I said it the way I said it because I remember the 3s being low. I do also recall his stats were generally weak until at least his junior year.

His player profile does strike me as similar to some of his pet wing projects and that was the main point.

[jambalaya]

Oh, hey. I figured it out again.

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch

Check right side team records for Emerson 97-98 and 99-00. He skipped a year for academics, injury and / or to try to gain a further age advantage.

1 3 pt make per game, though 3pt fg% went from 29% as junior to 39% as senior. Stats for his last 2 years were mostly ok for a starting wing though he was older and playing in one of the very weakest (and whitest) Division 3 conferences. Per game numbers look more impressive than perhaps per minute would be. About 2 to 2.5 assists per game. 64-68% from line. Probably not so hot at the rim given raw fg%. Steals were one of his best stats though they declined his last year. Indeed 23.5 yrs old by end of senior season.

VA Wesleyan stats may have come from another source. I recall he played something under 20-50 minutes total as a freshman.

[hardenASG13]

Here’s some spicy takes:

You guys seeing the problem of playing a non shooting guard huge minutes at the 2? You know, the notion i argued about with you for years and years on here. Even if the lineup data says the regular season lineups (regular season and playoffs aren’t the same, at all, and include many garbage teams) are better, d rating, RPM, the Carmelo model or whatever other stat you want to argue, they have 0 chance with such a player out there. The NBA is all about shooting, or pointzzz as a lot of you liked to throw around in a pathetic attempt to argue for defense being as important as offense.....in the nba.

OKC had prime Russell Westbrook, maybe the most explosive, gravitational guard I’ve ever seen, and Kevin Durant, possibly the most versatile scorer I’ve ever seen considering size and skill set, and surrounded them with guys like Thabo, Roberson, Perkins, and Adams. Don’t know how many times experts on this board told me those lumbering bigs could switch screens, were great offensive rebounders (because Westbrook drew their guys over), screen setters, etc., or that the lineup data supports bums like Roberson, dort, thabo and other non shooters at the 2. Hating on guys like Jerami Grant, saying he’s only really athletic and a good shooter if open (a great combination in the NBA btw), you guys would’ve argued with me at the notion of bringing in guys like a mclemore, rivers, house, gordon, etc. to fill wing minutes, citing their defense, on/off numbers, etc. It’s still what OKC needs, but they had KD and Westbrook!!! It would’ve been an unstoppable offensive juggernaut with shooters around those 2, and rotating cheap centers who can run and dunk and protect the rim, like a javale McGee, to play when needed. Collison and Ibaka would’ve been perfect centers, with Russ, KD, and shooters. What a waste.

Oh and Dort looks just as impressive as Roberson ever did against harden defensively. He wasn’t special. I’ll add I do think Dort will become a respectable 3 point shooter, making his contract a steal. He had the willingness and confidence to shoot and is clearly a hard worker. He will improve. Roberson never had that confidence and wasn’t a willing shooter, a concept many of you couldn’t understand. You’d say he needs to practice his shooting or foul shots lol. It does no good if you aren’t confident enough to shoot the ball, as your mechanics will change from overthinking. Like Dorts chances of developing though, honestly, he’s a good prospect on a dirt cheap deal.

[hardenASG13]

Just as an FYI to everyone, I'm going to be stepping down as a moderator. Some of you may be contacted by Howard. Without going in to a lot of details, I'll just say that the political aspects of sports has really frustrated me. I understand there are problems and injustices in the world and I have my beliefs as to what will fix them. I'm sure each of you has his or her own beliefs as well.

For me, sports its a time to have some time to enjoy myself and not focus on all of the bad stuff in the world. Again, it's not that I don't care about those injustices but the nba is no longer serving the purpose for which I had it in my life. Maybe in the future things get back to a level of normalcy or maybe not. I don't know. For now, I want a break from it.

https://sports.theonion.com/man-just-wants-to-watch-basketball-in-peace-without-bei-1844870156?utm_campaign=The+Onion&utm_content=1598562062&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1WJNQqyS-Gfbsk3ylZuYVMmR_36Aq4y1IHi-dbup337CNiROJvTzZZsLA

Please don't respond to this post. Thanks.
Thunderbolt

[Old Man Game]

It depresses me to see Dort like that. I hope the kid's confidence isn't permanently messed up.

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[1bigfan13]

Here’s some spicy takes:

You guys seeing the problem of playing a non shooting guard huge minutes at the 2? You know, the notion i argued about with you for years and years on here. Even if the lineup data says the regular season lineups (regular season and playoffs aren’t the same, at all, and include many garbage teams) are better, d rating, RPM, the Carmelo model or whatever other stat you want to argue, they have 0 chance with such a player out there. The NBA is all about shooting, or pointzzz as a lot of you liked to throw around in a pathetic attempt to argue for defense being as important as offense.....in the nba.

OKC had prime Russell Westbrook, maybe the most explosive, gravitational guard I’ve ever seen, and Kevin Durant, possibly the most versatile scorer I’ve ever seen considering size and skill set, and surrounded them with guys like Thabo, Roberson, Perkins, and Adams. Don’t know how many times experts on this board told me those lumbering bigs could switch screens, were great offensive rebounders (because Westbrook drew their guys over), screen setters, etc., or that the lineup data supports bums like Roberson, dort, thabo and other non shooters at the 2. Hating on guys like Jerami Grant, saying he’s only really athletic and a good shooter if open (a great combination in the NBA btw), you guys would’ve argued with me at the notion of bringing in guys like a mclemore, rivers, house, gordon, etc. to fill wing minutes, citing their defense, on/off numbers, etc. It’s still what OKC needs, but they had KD and Westbrook!!! It would’ve been an unstoppable offensive juggernaut with shooters around those 2, and rotating cheap centers who can run and dunk and protect the rim, like a javale McGee, to play when needed. Collison and Ibaka would’ve been perfect centers, with Russ, KD, and shooters. What a waste.

Oh and Dort looks just as impressive as Roberson ever did against harden defensively. He wasn’t special. I’ll add I do think Dort will become a respectable 3 point shooter, making his contract a steal. He had the willingness and confidence to shoot and is clearly a hard worker. He will improve. Roberson never had that confidence and wasn’t a willing shooter, a concept many of you couldn’t understand. You’d say he needs to practice his shooting or foul shots lol. It does no good if you aren’t confident enough to shoot the ball, as your mechanics will change from overthinking. Like Dorts chances of developing though, honestly, he’s a good prospect on a dirt cheap deal.

I'm not going to dig through old posts but this seems largely made up just so you can throw around some "I told you so's".

Maybe a few people would have argued against bringing in capable scorers but most OKC Thunder fans that I interact with have been begging for more shooters/scorers for the last 5 years. Most of us have called out Presti for building rosters with far too many one-dimensional players who are complete liabilities on offense. In fact after Game 1 I reiterated the point and even said Presti's done more to hurt the Thunder's championship hopes than Donovan and Brooks.

So please save the I told you so's for that small 5% of OKC fans who favor defensive minded players over scorers like Rivers or McClemore.

[hardenASG13]

Here’s some spicy takes:

You guys seeing the problem of playing a non shooting guard huge minutes at the 2? You know, the notion i argued about with you for years and years on here. Even if the lineup data says the regular season lineups (regular season and playoffs aren’t the same, at all, and include many garbage teams) are better, d rating, RPM, the Carmelo model or whatever other stat you want to argue, they have 0 chance with such a player out there. The NBA is all about shooting, or pointzzz as a lot of you liked to throw around in a pathetic attempt to argue for defense being as important as offense.....in the nba.

OKC had prime Russell Westbrook, maybe the most explosive, gravitational guard I’ve ever seen, and Kevin Durant, possibly the most versatile scorer I’ve ever seen considering size and skill set, and surrounded them with guys like Thabo, Roberson, Perkins, and Adams. Don’t know how many times experts on this board told me those lumbering bigs could switch screens, were great offensive rebounders (because Westbrook drew their guys over), screen setters, etc., or that the lineup data supports bums like Roberson, dort, thabo and other non shooters at the 2. Hating on guys like Jerami Grant, saying he’s only really athletic and a good shooter if open (a great combination in the NBA btw), you guys would’ve argued with me at the notion of bringing in guys like a mclemore, rivers, house, gordon, etc. to fill wing minutes, citing their defense, on/off numbers, etc. It’s still what OKC needs, but they had KD and Westbrook!!! It would’ve been an unstoppable offensive juggernaut with shooters around those 2, and rotating cheap centers who can run and dunk and protect the rim, like a javale McGee, to play when needed. Collison and Ibaka would’ve been perfect centers, with Russ, KD, and shooters. What a waste.

Oh and Dort looks just as impressive as Roberson ever did against harden defensively. He wasn’t special. I’ll add I do think Dort will become a respectable 3 point shooter, making his contract a steal. He had the willingness and confidence to shoot and is clearly a hard worker. He will improve. Roberson never had that confidence and wasn’t a willing shooter, a concept many of you couldn’t understand. You’d say he needs to practice his shooting or foul shots lol. It does no good if you aren’t confident enough to shoot the ball, as your mechanics will change from overthinking. Like Dorts chances of developing though, honestly, he’s a good prospect on a dirt cheap deal.

I'm not going to dig through old posts but this seems largely made up just so you can throw around some "I told you so's".

Maybe a few people would have argued against bringing in capable scorers but most OKC Thunder fans that I interact with have been begging for more shooters/scorers for the last 5 years. Most of us have called out Presti for building rosters with far too many one-dimensional players who are complete liabilities on offense. In fact after Game 1 I reiterated the point and even said Presti's done more to hurt the Thunder's championship hopes than Donovan and Brooks.

So please save the I told you so's for that small 5% of OKC fans who favor defensive minded players over scorers like Rivers or McClemore.

No sir. I argued extensively with the frequent posters on this board re: handing Roberson minutes for years as what was holding back the prime thunder teams. Was heavily ganged up on by those posters any time I did so, saying I didnt understand basketball, telling me defense in the NBA is just as important as offense. People also were very slow to realize that Adams offered little more than any other 7 footer who could run and jump, and was a terrible compliment to Westbrook in that he clogged the lane to get in position for all those offensive rebounds, couldnt shoot or block shots. People did come around on that too eventually. I legit like Dort though, hes gonna be an NBA player.

[getrichordie]

It's wild that the same people who criticize Presti for not getting more scoring/shooting around Westbrook are the same people criticizing Donovan and fail to realize that Donovan has had less than a full deck to work with personnel-wise and has probably had more roster turnover than any other coach in the league. Heck, I've even seen someone use the roster turnover factor to criticize Donovan. What a time to be alive...

[getrichordie]

Also, the last time Donovan truly had a full deck of cards to work with, he coached the Thunder to 7-game series versus the 73-win Warriors - ya know, the team with the highest regular season winning record, like better than Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls... Oh, wait! I forgot! Durant and PG made some comments about Billy and it was the players, not Donovan, so all of that is null and void.

[Old Man Game]

Also, the last time Donovan truly had a full deck of cards to work with, he coached the Thunder to 7-game series versus the 73-win Warriors - ya know, the team with the highest regular season winning record, like better than Michael Jordan's Chicago Bulls... Oh, wait! I forgot! Durant and PG made some comments about Billy and it was the players, not Donovan, so all of that is null and void.

Also blew a 3-1 lead in that series.

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[1bigfan13]

It's wild that the same people who criticize Presti for not getting more scoring/shooting around Westbrook are the same people criticizing Donovan and fail to realize that Donovan has had less than a full deck to work with personnel-wise and has probably had more roster turnover than any other coach in the league. Heck, I've even seen someone use the roster turnover factor to criticize Donovan. What a time to be alive...

It's a case where both things can be true. Presti has not done a good job building a roster capable of competing in the modern-day NBA. And on the other side of the coin, Billy Donovan hasn't helped matters with a lot of his coaching decisions.

One quick example is continuing to play Steven Adams and Dort at the same time. Here we are 5 games into the series and he's still trotting out the same starting lineup that's being outplayed at the start of 1st and 3rd quarters of every game.

Despite the inadequate roster at some point a coach has to make an adjustment and Donovan hasn't done that. So that's why he still gets criticized. He's too slow or too reluctant to make adjustments to his rotations.

[getrichordie]

It's wild that the same people who criticize Presti for not getting more scoring/shooting around Westbrook are the same people criticizing Donovan and fail to realize that Donovan has had less than a full deck to work with personnel-wise and has probably had more roster turnover than any other coach in the league. Heck, I've even seen someone use the roster turnover factor to criticize Donovan. What a time to be alive...

It's a case where both things can be true. Presti has not done a good job building a roster capable of competing in the modern-day NBA. And on the other side of the coin, Billy Donovan hasn't helped matters with a lot of his coaching decisions.

One quick example is continuing to play Steven Adams and Dort at the same time. Here we are 5 games into the series and he's still trotting out the same starting lineup that's being outplayed at the start of 1st and 3rd quarters of every game.

Despite the inadequate roster at some point a coach has to make an adjustment and Donovan hasn't done that. So that's why he still gets criticized. He's too slow or too reluctant to make adjustments to his rotations.

That's a very debatable point though. Everyone is talking about how Billy should go small, but aren't thinking about the past or the present ramifications/implications.

I've mentioned before that if you put Gallo at the 5, he's not a rim protector and he's not a great rebounder and he's not used to playing the 5 so there are 3 things working against you there. It does open up the rim on offense, though, unless you are playing Dort at the 4... which means basically you can have Dort's defender roaming the paint...

If you take Dort off and sub in Bazley, well there goes your defense on Harden. Not to mention that Bazley played 0 minutes with Gallinari in the regular season.

So, again, that's very debatable. The only reason this small ball stuff has worked is because it has been used in limited minutes against a tired HOU team...

[1bigfan13]

That's a very debatable point though. Everyone is talking about how Billy should go small, but aren't thinking about the past or the present ramifications/implications.

I've mentioned before that if you put Gallo at the 5, he's not a rim protector and he's not a great rebounder and he's not used to playing the 5 so there are 3 things working against you there. It does open up the rim on offense, though, unless you are playing Dort at the 4... which means basically you can have Dort's defender roaming the paint...

If you take Dort off and sub in Bazley, well there goes your defense on Harden. Not to mention that Bazley played 0 minutes with Gallinari in the regular season.

So, again, that's very debatable. The only reason this small ball stuff has worked is because it has been used in limited minutes against a tired HOU team...

I agree with you that regardless of which route they choose to go one area is going to be weakened in order to strengthen another. And I'm fine with that.

Personally I would like to see them at least try the Muscala-Gallo-Shai-Dort-CP3 lineup to start the game. Even if it's just for a few minutes. I completely understand that you lose some rebounding but other than that I don't think we'd miss Adams that much. He's been late on defensive rotations and he's had a ton of lazy shows on plays where could have cut off penetration into the paint.

I know a lot of what I'm throwing out there is purely based on the unknown, but I'd argue that it still beats traveling a known route that's led to nothing but failure.

A couple of numbers to help my argument. The Thunder are actually a slightly better rebounding team with Steven Adams off the floor. The total rebound % is 54% with Adams off the court. 53% with him on the floor. Also, they're a staggering -8 in offensive rating with him on the floor and their block percentage is twice as good with him off the floor (15.5% compared to 7%).

So the way I look at it the Thunder are actually doing better w/o him in areas that are supposed to be his strengths. Which is why I say they should be open to mixing things up rather than stubbornly sticking with a formula that hasn't yielded positive results. It's win or go home time.....everything should be on the table.

[1bigfan13]

Houston's ORTG with Adams on the court 117. With Adams off the court that number drops to 108.