Kanter's Free Agency

[Soonerule]

I took the $9 mil option. I'm not blind to his offense.

BTW, I thought the poll was excellent.

And yes, Adams over Kanter, I have an infinite amount of confidence in Adam's improving his offense over Kanter EVER playing defense. Put $13 mil/yr in Kanter's pocket and he will never do it. He'll be too busy hanging out in Chili's tweeting for blondes and brunettes to come have lunch with him to work on his game any more.

The main issue in not keeping him is just that they'd still have zero cap room to replace him w/ no backup C. So it would need to be a sign and trade, which is possible. That said, I still hold a little more hope than you he'll improve, but I'm not entirely convinced either.

And thanks, I tried on the poll .

Why wouldn't he improve?
He's 22 and now on a team that will focus on his defense. Both of those point to us reasonably thinking he will improve.

He doesn't want to or thinks he doesn't have to. He was on a team that focused on defense last year. That is what Quin Snyder was brought in to do at Utah and Kanter would not get on board. That is something people forget, when Snyder came in, it was a clean slate, a chance to start over and show he was willing to play defense and he wouldn't. So Kanter became "unhappy", not once, but twice, he's a prima donna. When Donovan or whoever he is playing for next season starts sitting him when he won't play defense he will be "unhappy" again.

He's a one-way player.

[Bravenewworld]

Because he's been in the league 4 years and has been on teams that played defense.....except him. I think there's a chance he does, but there's a better chance its not a big difference if any.

The Jazz do not run or are not a great defensive team. And its not that he was a bad defender so moving him made them do better. It was that they could not get a 3 big man depth rotation going on and with Favors and Kanter on the floor, they were terrible defensively. If you have one bad defender on the floor, you need one good defender. Ibaka/Kanter. Adams/Kanter. ZBo/Gasol. Bynum/Gasol. Noah/Gasol. Chandler/Dirk. Chandler/Amare. DJ/Blake, etc.

All of these players improved their defense as a result of being in positive defensive systems and most were older when being put in said position. You cant even be a good help defender if both bigs are bad defensively.
And If youre on a team with bad/bad, then you're not going to learn how to actually improve your m2m defense which also comes with positive help defense. Again, we see this all the time with bad defensive big men. Gasol and ZBo are perfect comparisons. ZBo was possibly the worst defender in the game before he joined the Grizzlies.

There is no reason to think he will not improve defensively for three reasons.

1. He's 22. He has about 6 years before he hits the average of when we see players stop adding to their abilities.
2. He will learn a defensive system and learn his role in it. As a result he will become a better help defender.
3. He will gain experience. As long as he plays, this is an absolute. With that experience he will become a smarter defender.

[Bravenewworld]

He doesn't want to or thinks he doesn't have to.

Says who?
Hes now on a team that appreciates him, is positive and will be constantly working with him on defense. There is no reason for you to say this.

He was on a team that focused on defense last year................ That is something people forget, when Snyder came in, it was a clean slate, a chance to start over and show he was willing to play defense and he wouldn't.

And a team that was focused on rotating him out, last year.
And a team that was focused on not actually improving.
Say what you will, but the Jazz have not done anything to put themselves in a better position or become an overall better team, since Sloan. Going after Quinn Snyder over all the other great college coaches you could get, really highlights this.

Which btw, he was also improving his defense last year on the Jazz, as well as with OKC. So again we hit this wall where its not realistic at all to say this guy is not going to improve defensively.

http://purpleandblues.com/2015/01/13/en ... improving/

That is what Quin Snyder was brought in to do at Utah and Kanter would not get on board.

Kanter didnt have any issues until they were not improving (Which its not hard to understand why they would not improve with Snyder's coaching) and they wanted to replace him. And given the Jazzs' complete lack of improving and moving forward with their franchise, its pretty understandable why someone would want out of that situation.

So Kanter became "unhappy", not once, but twice, he's a prima donna. When Donovan or whoever he is playing for next season starts sitting him when he won't play defense he will be "unhappy" again.

This idea would hold some merit if it was not a constant issue with players. And maybe you dislike or like the way he handled the situation, but it does not escape the fact that players just don't want to seem to be on the team and it seems to be a top, down problem.
We've seen these players want to be traded, refuse a higher contract then they would get some place else, or just refuse to resign with them. Seemingly because of these problems.
Boozer, Kanter, DWill, Millsap, Al Jefferson, Carroll, etc. In 5 years they've lost a near all star starting roster.
The real question is, how long will it be before Favors, Rudy and that white guy want to be off this team?
Which IMO i dont see Favors or Burke resigning with them.

[bondom34]

Because he's been in the league 4 years and has been on teams that played defense.....except him. I think there's a chance he does, but there's a better chance its not a big difference if any.

The Jazz do not run or are not a great defensive team. And its not that he was a bad defender so moving him made them do better. It was that they could not get a 3 big man depth rotation going on and with Favors and Kanter on the floor, they were terrible defensively. If you have one bad defender on the floor, you need one good defender. Ibaka/Kanter. Adams/Kanter. ZBo/Gasol. Bynum/Gasol. Noah/Gasol. Chandler/Dirk. Chandler/Amare. DJ/Blake, etc.

All of these players improved their defense as a result of being in positive defensive systems and most were older when being put in said position. You cant even be a good help defender if both bigs are bad defensively.
And If youre on a team with bad/bad, then you're not going to learn how to actually improve your m2m defense which also comes with positive help defense. Again, we see this all the time with bad defensive big men. Gasol and ZBo are perfect comparisons. ZBo was possibly the worst defender in the game before he joined the Grizzlies.

There is no reason to think he will not improve defensively for three reasons.

1. He's 22. He has about 6 years before he hits the average of when we see players stop adding to their abilities.
2. He will learn a defensive system and learn his role in it. As a result he will become a better help defender.
3. He will gain experience. As long as he plays, this is an absolute. With that experience he will become a smarter defender.

The Jazz were a great defensive team....after he left. They were a positive system, and I'm not saying he can't, but at this point he's not going to be anything more than at best barely passable defensively. That's not what he's there for though, and I can live w/ it if he makes it that far. I'm hopeful too, just not as much as you.

[kdthunderup]

I mean if the Bulls could become the best defensive team with Boozer in the side why can't the Thunder become at least a great defensive team with Kanter in the side? I mean Boozer was awful but he learnt how to play good team defense within the Bulls system and was not too much of a liability.

All he has to do is improve his IQ too at least become ok and that is simply given with the right coaching and experience.

[spearsy23]

I'm seeing the same arguments being made for Kanter's improvement that were made when Dion came over... Look how that turned out. At least Kanter didn't suck to begin with, but you can't count on 'oh, well he likes it here' to suddenly make a guy a better player.

[Bravenewworld]

The Jazz were a great defensive team....after he left. They were a positive system, and I'm not saying he can't, but at this point he's not going to be anything more than at best barely passable defensively. That's not what he's there for though, and I can live w/ it if he makes it that far. I'm hopeful too, just not as much as you.

The Jazz had a solid defensive 20 game run... whooptie freaking do.
And it was mainly because Favors and Kanter cant be on the floor together and Synder cant figure out how to run 3 bigs.

This is my point.
Hes 22.
Even if we just apply the fact that he will get better defensively through experience, then thats him gettin gbetter. But that is like... the absolute worst case and its still him improving.

[bondom34]

The Jazz were a great defensive team....after he left. They were a positive system, and I'm not saying he can't, but at this point he's not going to be anything more than at best barely passable defensively. That's not what he's there for though, and I can live w/ it if he makes it that far. I'm hopeful too, just not as much as you.

The Jazz had a solid defensive 20 game run... whooptie freaking do.
And it was mainly because Favors and Kanter cant be on the floor together and Synder cant figure out how to run 3 bigs.

This is my point.
Hes 22.
Even if we just apply the fact that he will get better defensively through experience, then thats him gettin gbetter. But that is like... the absolute worst case and its still him improving.

No, the worst case is him not improving at all.

[Bravenewworld]

I'm seeing the same arguments being made for Kanter's improvement that were made when Dion came over... Look how that turned out. At least Kanter didn't suck to begin with, but you can't count on 'oh, well he likes it here' to suddenly make a guy a better player.

Ug. You people are ridiculous with this.
I want to think that youve forgotten Waiters has only been with us for half a season and he has improved. But given we continue to have this conversation, i dont think you have. You just keep repeating the same thing over and over, as if anyone who knows anything about basketball would dismiss a player improving after half a season. No, that's just idiotic.

[Bravenewworld]

The Jazz were a great defensive team....after he left. They were a positive system, and I'm not saying he can't, but at this point he's not going to be anything more than at best barely passable defensively. That's not what he's there for though, and I can live w/ it if he makes it that far. I'm hopeful too, just not as much as you.

The Jazz had a solid defensive 20 game run... whooptie freaking do.
And it was mainly because Favors and Kanter cant be on the floor together and Synder cant figure out how to run 3 bigs.

This is my point.
Hes 22.
Even if we just apply the fact that he will get better defensively through experience, then thats him gettin gbetter. But that is like... the absolute worst case and its still him improving.

No, the worst case is him not improving at all.

No, its not.
Hes 22. Irregardless of his skill improving, he will gain experience. Which means he will be making better decisions. Which is an improvement. There's never been an NBA player that has not gained experienced and improved as a result.

[bondom34]

The Jazz had a solid defensive 20 game run... whooptie freaking do.
And it was mainly because Favors and Kanter cant be on the floor together and Synder cant figure out how to run 3 bigs.

This is my point.
Hes 22.
Even if we just apply the fact that he will get better defensively through experience, then thats him gettin gbetter. But that is like... the absolute worst case and its still him improving.

No, the worst case is him not improving at all.

No, its not.
Hes 22. Irregardless of his skill improving, he will gain experience. Which means he will be making better decisions. Which is an improvement. There's never been an NBA player that has not gained experienced and improved as a result.

Really?

Because even on this team, Kyle Singler's been around for years and put up the same numbers every year. Guys like Derrick Williams get chances and haven't improved, there's plenty of examples. Kanter's a good player, but zero is guaranteed.

[Bravenewworld]

No, the worst case is him not improving at all.

No, its not.
Hes 22. Irregardless of his skill improving, he will gain experience. Which means he will be making better decisions. Which is an improvement. There's never been an NBA player that has not gained experienced and improved as a result.

Really?

Because even on this team, Kyle Singler's been around for years and put up the same numbers every year. Guys like Derrick Williams get chances and haven't improved, there's plenty of examples. Kanter's a good player, but zero is guaranteed.

Just because their numbers are not drastically affected does not mean they are not making better decisions. This is how vets who average 10mpg, become vets. Because after that 8 year mark or so, theyre great experience to have. You wont notice it in their stats, but its the reason they keep a job.
Yes, zero will never happen. Just for the fact that he ages as a human being and his mind grows with him as he is playing professional basketball. My bad... if he is a car wreck, becomes mentally disabled and cannot play basketball. He wont gain experience.

[bondom34]

No, its not.
Hes 22. Irregardless of his skill improving, he will gain experience. Which means he will be making better decisions. Which is an improvement. There's never been an NBA player that has not gained experienced and improved as a result.

Really?

Because even on this team, Kyle Singler's been around for years and put up the same numbers every year. Guys like Derrick Williams get chances and haven't improved, there's plenty of examples. Kanter's a good player, but zero is guaranteed.

Just because their numbers are not drastically affected does not mean they are not making better decisions. This is how vets who average 10mpg, become vets. Because after that 8 year mark or so, theyre great experience to have. You wont notice it in their stats, but its the reason they keep a job.
Yes, zero will never happen. Just for the fact that he ages as a human being and his mind grows with him as he is playing professional basketball. My bad... if he is a car wreck, becomes mentally disabled and cannot play basketball. He wont gain experience.

We've just gone over this w/ other players. There are no guarantees. You've argued against Lamb, and he's gotten experience, you say he hasn't improved. So either Lamb has improved or there's a chance players don't improve. Dion hasn't improved either but he gets a pass for the same reasons. There is zero consistency.

[Bravenewworld]

We've just gone over this w/ other players. There are no guarantees. You've argued against Lamb, and he's gotten experience, you say he hasn't improved. So either Lamb has improved or there's a chance players don't improve. Dion hasn't improved either but he gets a pass for the same reasons. There is zero consistency.

And Lamb has made improvements, not many, not worth us keeping him and continuing to hinder ourselves, but he has.

The consistency is, giving players a chance. Lamb, like it or not, we've had him for long enough to know he is not going to develop into what we need.
Dion Waiters have had for half a season. When we look at his past, the only decline we see is when the Cavs team was restructuring and everyone was a mess. Im not going to hold that against him or use that to determine how his development with us is coming along.
When we have had Dion as long as Lamb, and if for some reason im not tooting the same horn, then come at me with the consistency issue. Until then, don't. I hate to put it like this, but this conversation is ridiculous. Personally, im not stupid enough to dismiss a player after half a season.

BTW, i decided to look up DWilliams to see if he has made improvements, and yes, he clearly has.
Look at his advanced shooting, he is clearly taking better and smarter shots now. And its only his fourth year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

[bondom34]

We've just gone over this w/ other players. There are no guarantees. You've argued against Lamb, and he's gotten experience, you say he hasn't improved. So either Lamb has improved or there's a chance players don't improve. Dion hasn't improved either but he gets a pass for the same reasons. There is zero consistency.

And Lamb has made improvements, not many, not worth us keeping him and continuing to hinder ourselves, but he has.

The consistency is, giving players a chance. Lamb, like it or not, we've had him for long enough to know he is not going to develop into what we need.
Dion Waiters have had for half a season. When we look at his past, the only decline we see is when the Cavs team was restructuring and everyone was a mess. Im not going to hold that against him or use that to determine how his development with us is coming along.
When we have had Dion as long as Lamb, and if for some reason im not tooting the same horn, then come at me with the consistency issue. Until then, don't. I hate to put it like this, but this conversation is ridiculous. Personally, im not stupid enough to dismiss a player after half a season.

BTW, i decided to look up DWilliams to see if he has made improvements, and yes, he clearly has.
Look at his advanced shooting, he is clearly taking better and smarter shots now. And its only his fourth year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

If you're saying D Will improved, then Lamb's leaps and bounds better.

And Dion has been the same guy for 3 years. Look, I think Kanter can get better, but there are zero certainties in life.

[Bravenewworld]

If you're saying D Will improved, then Lamb's leaps and bounds better.

And Dion has been the same guy for 3 years. Look, I think Kanter can get better, but there are zero certainties in life.

Im not saying anything. Im showing you. Im giving you DWill's advanced shooting statistics which show a clear improvement in his shooting over time.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

Im going to bet we see something similar with Singler as well.

As long as Kanter plays basketball, he will improve. That is a certainty.

[bondom34]

If you're saying D Will improved, then Lamb's leaps and bounds better.

And Dion has been the same guy for 3 years. Look, I think Kanter can get better, but there are zero certainties in life.

Im not saying anything. Im showing you. Im giving you DWill's advanced shooting statistics which show a clear improvement in his shooting over time.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

Im going to bet we see something similar with Singler as well.

As long as Kanter plays basketball, he will improve. That is a certainty.

D Will's usage also dropped. So he got more efficient and shot less. His BPM and rebounding are also worse than his rookie year. So he's better at maybe one thing, and worse elsewhere.

[Bravenewworld]

If you're saying D Will improved, then Lamb's leaps and bounds better.

And Dion has been the same guy for 3 years. Look, I think Kanter can get better, but there are zero certainties in life.

Im not saying anything. Im showing you. Im giving you DWill's advanced shooting statistics which show a clear improvement in his shooting over time.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

Im going to bet we see something similar with Singler as well.

As long as Kanter plays basketball, he will improve. That is a certainty.

D Will's usage also dropped. So he got more efficient and shot less. His BPM and rebounding are also worse than his rookie year. So he's better at maybe one thing, and worse elsewhere.

He seems to be better at his overall shooting decisions. You do understand that players don't generally improve in every category right? These expectations you seem to have are ridiculous and unrealistic. This is not NBA2K, players dont improve via numbers on a screen.

Sometimes i wonder how much basketball some of you have played or been involved in. No one who has played organized basketball at nearly any level would make the suggestions you're making.
Yes, its a guarantee that a 22 year old, who is going to be logging in 82 games, 2000 hours of practice, 500 hours of strategic video analysis, 800 hours of weight lifting and training, etc. before he hits 23, is going to improve. There is not a single coach, GM, player, etc. who would say anything contrary to that.

[bondom34]

Im not saying anything. Im showing you. Im giving you DWill's advanced shooting statistics which show a clear improvement in his shooting over time.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... ting::none

Im going to bet we see something similar with Singler as well.

As long as Kanter plays basketball, he will improve. That is a certainty.

D Will's usage also dropped. So he got more efficient and shot less. His BPM and rebounding are also worse than his rookie year. So he's better at maybe one thing, and worse elsewhere.

He seems to be better at his overall shooting decisions. You do understand that players don't generally improve in every category right? These expectations you seem to have are ridiculous and unrealistic. This is not NBA2K, players dont improve via numbers on a screen.

Sometimes i wonder how much basketball some of you have played or been involved in. No one who has played organized basketball at nearly any level would make the suggestions you're making.
Yes, its a guarantee that a 22 year old, who is going to be logging in 82 games, 2000 hours of practice, 500 hours of strategic video analysis, 800 hours of weight lifting and training, etc. is going to improve. There is not a single coach, GM, player, etc. who would say anything contrary to that.

Oh my goodness...

FIrst, don't call the "I've watched and played card". That's usually a sign you don't really know what you're trying to say here.

Second, I said his percentages went up while his usage went down. That's not a hard concept. Its easier to play better if other teams let you go because you're not very good.

The fact that Waiters hasn't improved in 4 years is plenty of evidence for everyone other than you, Shumpert went from NY to the Cavs, and hey guess what, he's playing great! Dion went from that terrible Cavs situation to OKC and guess what, he's still the same crappy player! There's always the chance that a player won't change, even in a new place.

[kdthunderup]

The thing is even if Kanter doesn't improve his defense at all we still have enough depth to make changes to the lineup to accommodate the match up.

Kanter getting abused too much on D? Throw Adams in.
Can't get the offense going and there is a match up to abuse in the post? Put Kanter in.

I mean if the Bulls could cover up Boozer's awful defense and still be one of the best defensive teams why can't OKC? I also seriously think Kanter's defense is being over criticised I mean he is bad but not as bad as most people go on about, his post defense is pretty good and was capable of making good defensive plays at times but he obviously lacks a lot in defensive awareness and IQ which is the part I at least think he can improve on a bit with more experience and being with the team for a while.