Starting to understand the Carmelo talk now

[bondom34]

Hes literally 1st in frequency. And inefficient too

[slick_watts]

melo definitely isolates too much relative to how successful he is when he does it. eye test tells me that a lot of his isos are coming as part of a set and not of the 'bail out' nature.

he really needs to be an elite spot up / catch and shoot player offensively for his value on offense to offset his value on defense (for his position) in my opinion. what's his ppp on spot up? probably not good enough.

i'd like to see melo at .600 3Pr and his 3pt% 36% or higher. his usage while on the court with the big 3 should be a distant third unless he has some kind of really imbalanced mismatch. he can iso to his heart's delight with the bench unit when the pace drops.

edit: melo's ppp on spot up is .89. pretty bad. efg 46%. too many long two's even on these spot up attempts i'm guessing.

[Pillendreher]

edit: melo's ppp on spot up is .89. pretty bad. efg 46%. too many long two's even on these spot up attempts i'm guessing.

25/63 Catch and Shoot 3s - 39.7 %
8/15 Catch and Shoot 2s - 53. 3 %
58.3 eFG% overall

I don't know why those numbers are so different. His Catch and Shoot game has been on point so far. It's the pull up 3s he has to eliminate.

[slick_watts]

edit: melo's ppp on spot up is .89. pretty bad. efg 46%. too many long two's even on these spot up attempts i'm guessing.

25/63 Catch and Shoot 3s - 39.7 %
8/15 Catch and Shoot 2s - 53. 3 %
58.3 eFG% overall

I don't know why those numbers are so different. His Catch and Shoot game has been on point so far. It's the pull up 3s he has to eliminate.

strange. my understanding is that synergy has human beings tracking their plays and categorizing them while the sportsvu stuff is based on the cameras and how many 'dribbles' or time before a shot is attempted?

[Pillendreher]

edit: melo's ppp on spot up is .89. pretty bad. efg 46%. too many long two's even on these spot up attempts i'm guessing.

25/63 Catch and Shoot 3s - 39.7 %
8/15 Catch and Shoot 2s - 53. 3 %
58.3 eFG% overall

I don't know why those numbers are so different. His Catch and Shoot game has been on point so far. It's the pull up 3s he has to eliminate.

strange. my understanding is that synergy has human beings tracking their plays and categorizing them while the sportsvu stuff is based on the cameras and how many 'dribbles' or time before a shot is attempted?

I don't know. Honestly, I've always felt like those Synergy numbers just look off. Even the amount of poss. has never looked right to me.

[slick_watts]

25/63 Catch and Shoot 3s - 39.7 %
8/15 Catch and Shoot 2s - 53. 3 %
58.3 eFG% overall

I don't know why those numbers are so different. His Catch and Shoot game has been on point so far. It's the pull up 3s he has to eliminate.

strange. my understanding is that synergy has human beings tracking their plays and categorizing them while the sportsvu stuff is based on the cameras and how many 'dribbles' or time before a shot is attempted?

I don't know. Honestly, I've always felt like those Synergy numbers just look off. Even the amount of poss. has never looked right to me.

on the old synergy site you could watch the plays and sort of 'audit' the tracking data. can't do that anymore.

[NOOB77]

If I remember correctly the last couple games his ISO have come from a side pick and roll with Russ when the defenders switch and he had a PG on him? If they are sets then like it looks like then those would be called from the bench and those Iso chances would be on the coach not the player.

[Reign23]

have a little patience with him. he hasn't played with real basketball players for 5 years now. It could take a while.

[dakomish23]

1. Stop referring to basketball players as Cancer, please I beg some of you just look for better comparisons.

2. The ball stopping- Melo passes the 2nd most times on your team, while also receiving the 4th most passes of anyone(behind Russ, PG and Felton. He also passes more than any Knicks that isn’t a Point Guard.

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PASSES_RECEIVED&dir=1&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Okc

3. As for Isolation he averages 6 a game, 5 shot attempts out of isolation.

One of the reasons for you guys having trouble is Russ pounding the rock early in the shot clock. Your first pass is coming at 12 or 14 seconds far too often when teams like GS and SAS have 3 or 4 by that time. There’s also limited off the ball Movement.

Billy D has to get more creative and get some movement so these guys can get better looks. OP not watching close enough IMO

That's not a lot of ISO stuff but even then I'd try to trim it down more. It's not his fault if that's the play the coach calls, but the ball needs to keep moving. You got two guys who can pass out of a PnR pretty well in Westbrook and Felton - use it. I think Melo along with everyone else will be better if you take that approach.

[Pillendreher]

The biggest adjustment he needs to make is to stop taking pull up 3s. He's 4/19 on pullup 3s and 25/63 on catch and shoot 3s. He needs to focus on the catch-and-shoot 3s.

Those shots take him from a career high 51.9 eFG% to a slighly above career average 49.5 eFG%.

He's been decent enough on pull-up 2s tho: 34/75, good for 45 % (although it might still be better for him to take more spot up 3s instead of those long pull up 2s, because 45 % on those is as good as shooting 30.2 % on 3s...).

[Rotten Apple]

1. Stop referring to basketball players as Cancer, please I beg some of you just look for better comparisons.

2. The ball stopping- Melo passes the 2nd most times on your team, while also receiving the 4th most passes of anyone(behind Russ, PG and Felton. He also passes more than any Knicks that isn’t a Point Guard.

http://stats.nba.com/players/passing/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PASSES_RECEIVED&dir=1&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Okc

3. As for Isolation he averages 6 a game, 5 shot attempts out of isolation.

One of the reasons for you guys having trouble is Russ pounding the rock early in the shot clock. Your first pass is coming at 12 or 14 seconds far too often when teams like GS and SAS have 3 or 4 by that time. There’s also limited off the ball Movement.

Billy D has to get more creative and get some movement so these guys can get better looks. OP not watching close enough IMO

That's not a lot of ISO stuff but even then I'd try to trim it down more. It's not his fault if that's the play the coach calls, but the ball needs to keep moving. You got two guys who can pass out of a PnR pretty well in Westbrook and Felton - use it. I think Melo along with everyone else will be better if you take that approach.

Just saying the ISO stuff is the most overblown critique. I’d probably only utilize it in mismatches. Like his 25 point 2nd quarter last year when the Wizards thought it was a good idea for Jason Smith to defend him.

The ball for OKC doesn’t move enough as is, starts with Russ then Melo/PG, others, etc...

Again he passes more than anyone not named Russ so it’s not like he isn’t passing.

[Rotten Apple]

The biggest adjustment he needs to make is to stop taking pull up 3s. He's 4/19 on pullup 3s and 25/63 on catch and shoot 3s. He needs to focus on the catch-and-shoot 3s.

Those shots take him from a career high 51.9 eFG% to a slighly above career average 49.5 eFG%.

He's been decent enough on pull-up 2s tho: 34/75, good for 45 % (although it might still be better for him to take more spot up 3s instead of those long pull up 2s, because 45 % on those is as good as shooting 30.2 % on 3s...).

Yeah hate the pull up 3s

In a perfect world his shot distribution would come

16 shots
10- catch and shoot/drive(3s or 1 dribble pull up 2s or drives)
2- isolations
2- Post ups
2- designed cuts to the rim for easy looks

[dakomish23]

The biggest adjustment he needs to make is to stop taking pull up 3s. He's 4/19 on pullup 3s and 25/63 on catch and shoot 3s. He needs to focus on the catch-and-shoot 3s.

Those shots take him from a career high 51.9 eFG% to a slighly above career average 49.5 eFG%.

He's been decent enough on pull-up 2s tho: 34/75, good for 45 % (although it might still be better for him to take more spot up 3s instead of those long pull up 2s, because 45 % on those is as good as shooting 30.2 % on 3s...).

Yeah hate the pull up 3s

In a perfect world his shot distribution would come

16 shots
10- catch and shoot/drive(3s or 1 dribble pull up 2s or drives)
2- isolations
2- Post ups
2- designed cuts to the rim for easy looks

Maybe even less than that. Make it two total for the ISO / post ups. They fall into the same boat for me. 14 FGA with Russ / PG getting 18 FGA and Adams getting 12 FGA seems ideal.

That should be 85-90 points between those 4 very night. Not sure where the other 20 PPG is coming from though.

[Rotten Apple]

The biggest adjustment he needs to make is to stop taking pull up 3s. He's 4/19 on pullup 3s and 25/63 on catch and shoot 3s. He needs to focus on the catch-and-shoot 3s.

Those shots take him from a career high 51.9 eFG% to a slighly above career average 49.5 eFG%.

He's been decent enough on pull-up 2s tho: 34/75, good for 45 % (although it might still be better for him to take more spot up 3s instead of those long pull up 2s, because 45 % on those is as good as shooting 30.2 % on 3s...).

Yeah hate the pull up 3s

In a perfect world his shot distribution would come

16 shots
10- catch and shoot/drive(3s or 1 dribble pull up 2s or drives)
2- isolations
2- Post ups
2- designed cuts to the rim for easy looks

Maybe even less than that. Make it two total for the ISO / post ups. They fall into the same boat for me. 14 FGA with Russ / PG getting 18 FGA and Adams getting 12 FGA seems ideal.

That should be 85-90 points between those 4 very night. Not sure where the other 20 PPG is coming from though.

No way. Post ups either on the block or at the elbow are different from perimeter isolations.

You’re gonna call his number twice all game? No way, no way.

[The KnicksFix]

Never really watched him play that much in his career (although I still remember him crushing my Sooners in the final 4...that still hurts) but the word on him has always been that he's a ball stopper on offense and he hurts to some degree any offensive flow throughout the game because he almost never looks to pass and now I'm really starting to understand it. Yes, he's a great one on one player and he scores most of the time he goes isolation but he does it so much and their offense completely stops moving once he gets it because they all know he's going to jack it up. For this team to reach its potential he's going to have to start taking better shots and actually looking to pass and keep the ball moving some and as of right now he doesn't look like he has any interest in that. It's funny that the Knicks are now 6-5 and OKC is 4-6 and the common denominator is him. He is only averaging 1.6 assists per game in 32 minutes and he's already jacked up 67 3 pointers in 10 games which is ridiculous. Can Billy Donovan get this guy to change his game to some degree because if he can't they're in for a long season.

melo will never change his game. his isolation is exactly what the NBA has moved away from. if he would simply catch the ball and make a decision in 3 seconds or less, aka pass shoot or drive, he would be good, until then, he will always be a ball stopper

[Rotten Apple]

edit: melo's ppp on spot up is .89. pretty bad. efg 46%. too many long two's even on these spot up attempts i'm guessing.

25/63 Catch and Shoot 3s - 39.7 %
8/15 Catch and Shoot 2s - 53. 3 %
58.3 eFG% overall

I don't know why those numbers are so different. His Catch and Shoot game has been on point so far. It's the pull up 3s he has to eliminate.

You gotta remember he’s not getting a lot of catch and shoot looks though. If he was getting throughout the game instead of here and there maybe you’d see him trend to focusing on those looks but a lot of his, George and Russ scoring opportunities are coming in set situations instead of just a natural flow. It’s something to keep watching.

[Rotten Apple]

Never really watched him play that much in his career (although I still remember him crushing my Sooners in the final 4...that still hurts) but the word on him has always been that he's a ball stopper on offense and he hurts to some degree any offensive flow throughout the game because he almost never looks to pass and now I'm really starting to understand it. Yes, he's a great one on one player and he scores most of the time he goes isolation but he does it so much and their offense completely stops moving once he gets it because they all know he's going to jack it up. For this team to reach its potential he's going to have to start taking better shots and actually looking to pass and keep the ball moving some and as of right now he doesn't look like he has any interest in that. It's funny that the Knicks are now 6-5 and OKC is 4-6 and the common denominator is him. He is only averaging 1.6 assists per game in 32 minutes and he's already jacked up 67 3 pointers in 10 games which is ridiculous. Can Billy Donovan get this guy to change his game to some degree because if he can't they're in for a long season.

melo will never change his game. his isolation is exactly what the NBA has moved away from. if he would simply catch the ball and make a decision in 3 seconds or less, aka pass shoot or drive, he would be good, until then, he will always be a ball stopper

Stats show he does this though.

[ThunderBolt]

I’m to the point there isn’t much to say about Melo. He does what he’s always done and it’s stupid to think we can change that. He’s not superstar anymore and he’s going to have games that he is great and games he sucks. We got rid of Kanter and McDermott for him, not Steven Adams. If expectations are adjusted to compare Kanter and McDermott, not to the warriors or other stars then he should be fine.

[Andre Roberstan]

Rotten Apple actually has a point—the tracking data indicates that Melo's actually getting a decent amount of touches and moving the ball well when he does. And his average time per touch is surprisingly low. I think the examples of the times that he doesn't are glaring enough that they're mentally overriding the rest.

Still don't feel like it flows right with him on the floor, though, which is a case where I'm not sure how to reconcile eye test and numbers. Time to go watch film.

[Dadouv47]

Overall he's doing what we expected from him. Wish he plays more like how he played against the Clippers (only taking open shots and touching less the ball). His defense against Blake was great as well. He will be challenged in a big way next 3 games (LMA/AD/Draymond). We will see if he can defend a bit or not.