2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[slick_watts]

Billy knows what he wants done on offense but russ kept sending out those George-led bench units last year.

i'm not suggesting billy donovan is infallible. but imposing structure on westbrook and / or george is not going to happen with any coach, imo. katz and darnell intimated this about westbrook before they left and it seems like horne is alluding to the same thing. this can be true as well as billy not being 100% optimal with his rotation decisions. there are obvious things occurring on the court that can't be the result of any professional basketball coaching.

there's no need for the polarization. horne had some lucid and direct commentary on the situation that is worth paying attention to. he did say that billy has his own issues, also. which-- duh. he does.

[slick_watts]

And so on and so on. Westbrook being less coachable than other players does not equal Donovan not being at fault here. The only way that works is if he is indeed coaching his butt of every single day and 30 to 40 different people have ignored it completely for three straight years just because Russell Westbrook says so. I don't find that scenario very believable.

no one on the team is going to take the coaching staff seriously if the leader of the team does not.

do you believe that billy donovan is ok with an offensive possession that ends with a raymond felton 18-footer and he's the only one to touch the ball?

[Pillendreher]

horne saying what i've been saying all along. westbrook is not a coachable player. he wants to be like lebron coaching himself. and george is similar, as was reinforced by his comments during camp. sam knows all this and this is why we have a coach like billy donovan and not one like mike d'antoni.

What kind of a reasoning is that? "Yes, things might be as easy as we thought, so let's just give up and everybody's happy"? You think every star in this league is Tim Duncan? Hell no.

the idea that a coach with billy's experience can't design an effective offense with nba talent is ludicrous.

Citing his "experience" is like saying "Ah, what's the difference; of course middle school teachers can teach courses at ivy league colleges, no worries!". He was recruiting and playing with a bunch of children in Florida. This is the NBA, not PE.

And like I said earlier on the DT discord: Being experienced =! being good at your job.

so much blame is put on him when there's so much evidence that westbrook is not the kind of leader who is going to signal boost the coach's gameplan.

What if the coache's gameplan to let almost everybody do what they want? If your argument is that the way this team has played since Donovan arrived is due to Westbrook not being willing to try it any other way, shouldn't that lead to Westbrook being fully behind whatever the hell Donovan is telling them?

i mean, lets be serious for a minute-- do we honestly think it's billy donovan's desire that westbrook launch a three pointer off the dribble against san antonio for the final shot?

No, but at the same time, that's not convincing me of anything. Players all over the league take horrible shots. It's not a good thing to do and I highly doubt any of their coaches encourage it. Yet it's the same problem we've been coming back to: It's up to the coach to figure out a way to get a good shot in said situations. If he can't, then he needs to go. Blaming this completely on Westbrook is ignoring the main issue, which is that you need somebody to work with him and to improve his play and the team's play. Him being (very) difficult to deal with does not justify not getting a coach that is capable of doing that. Yet they're not even trying to change something. Instead they hand out five year contracts to the Kyle Singlers and the Billy Donovans of this world.

The kind of reasoning you're employing here is a slippery slope for evaluating somebody's work performance btw: By saying "He can't be that bad, right?", you're sabotaging the whole process from the start. Yes, he can. There are millions of people out there that really are that bad at their jobs.

horne knows what the issues are, katz knew, darnell knew, etc. there's a reason why the there's an inverse relationship in okc between opportunity and bbiq.

I could easily pinpoint these comments to the Thunder having bad coaching over the years. Westbrook is turning 30 soon and has never had a single coach in his NBA career that is actually known for his X and Os. And yes, I think Brooks is better than Donovan, but that doesn't make him a basketball mastermind. All of his career, he has been coached by guys that built their offense around "him being him". Forgive me for not buying the "It's Westbrook" take.

[slick_watts]

What kind of a reasoning is that? "Yes, things might be as easy as we thought, so let's just give up and everybody's happy"? You think every star in this league is Tim Duncan? Hell no.

billy's coaching style is what the thunder wanted. sam presti did not interview anyone else. sam has not had a bad thing to say about billy and the organization has been 100% in support of him. obviously, there's something he's doing that they like. he's keeping russell westbrook happy, is my guess.

Citing his "experience" is like saying "Ah, what's the difference; of course middle school teachers can teach courses at ivy league colleges, no worries!". He was recruiting and playing with a bunch of children in Florida. This is the NBA, not PE.

heh what? billy donovan's one of the most respected coaches in the country. first nba job in okc was probably a bad choice. i suspected at the time of hire his biggest obstacle would be not having the nba clout to impose on his players. that has turned out to be true imo.

What if the coache's gameplan to let almost everybody do what they want? If your argument is that the way this team has played since Donovan arrived is due to Westbrook not being willing to try it any other way, shouldn't that lead to Westbrook being fully behind whatever the hell Donovan is telling them?

i think that billy donovan's approach has been dictated tremendously by what his star player(s) prefer. paul george more or less said this.

Blaming this completely on Westbrook is ignoring the main issue

except i'm not doing this. westbrook has the power to do what he wants because he's been empowered to do so. what can billy do to change that? that is a cultural thing that needs to come from higher up- and it's probably too late anyway. westbrook's development along this path has been in progress for many years before donovan even arrived. the first article i recall about donovan's training camp included an anecdote highlighting westbrook's defiance towards him.

The kind of reasoning you're employing here is a slippery slope for evaluating somebody's work performance btw: By saying "He can't be that bad, right?", you're sabotaging the whole process from the start. Yes, he can. There are millions of people out there that really are that bad at their jobs.

billy has a really good reputation in coaching circles, there's a lot written about him and his philosophy and acumen over the years. i don't think it's sensible to question his basketball knowledge. i think it's sensible to question his capability of transmitting that knowledge to certain nba players. and this is the problem horne is highlighting on the podcast. he offers up a critique on donovan for this, and adds that westbrook and george being part of the problem as well.

I could easily pinpoint these comments to the Thunder having bad coaching over the years. Westbrook is turning 30 soon and has never had a single coach in his NBA career that is actually known for his X and Os. And yes, I think Brooks is better than Donovan, but that doesn't make him a basketball mastermind. All of his career, he has been coached by guys that built their offense around "him being him". Forgive me for not buying the "It's Westbrook" take.

except this is the third thunder beat reporter talking about this problem. it's a factor. everyone knows it's a factor.

i don't think billy donovan is a poor x's and o's coach.

[bondom34]

I haven't seen anything from him saying that, but feels like this is the weirdest time to blame him for losses. Like literally he can't escape it.

Weird time to blame Russ or Billy? It is a great time to blame Billy because Russ isn't there to stop the ball movement. If Billy had put an offensive system into place now would be when you would expect to see it. Instead we are getting the expected Schroder and PG iso show with the surprise addition of Jerami Grant. This just shows that while Billy says nice catch phrases like "ball movement" and "moving without the ball" he isn't teaching it or enforcing it.

Russ, it seems the time Billy is being shown for what he pretty much has been.

[bondom34]

Rick Pitino and John Calipari, very experienced coaches who lead great NBA teams.

[Pillendreher]

but imposing structure on westbrook and / or george is not going to happen with any coach, imo.

no one on the team is going to take the coaching staff seriously if the leader of the team does not.

And how do you arrive at that conclusion? What do you think is happening behind closed doors at the Thunder training facility? Do you think Westbrook is **** in Donovan's mouth in front of the whole Thunder staff and team? Do you think George walks out of the room when Donovan enters because he simply does not care?

What is the point of Donovan being there if the players that matter - according to you - completely ignore him on a regular basis and don't think that he matters at all?

Since you keep mentioning Thunder media guys: The way I conceived Katz's "parting words" was that (I'm being a bit hyperbolic here) there was no direction from the people in charge of the squad while the players were doing whatever the hell they wanted. Katz said they didn't understand why they were losing and that they didn't figure it out until it was too late. He said there was a kind of divide between the "OK3" and the rest of the team with Adams playing intermediary. You know what that sounds like? It sounds like when parents don't set boundaries for their children beause they think that they need to find themselfs at 5 yo. You know whose job that is? This guy's:



When the lockerroom is drifting apart and it's not because players dislike each other, then it's the coach's job to step in and his job. He's not just the team's chaperone. When players lose their self-awareness and start losing games while pretending that everything is fine, it's up to the coach to get them to realize that not everything is fine and that their losses are a direct result of their sloppiness. He needs to get them to understand that they haven't won **** yet.

do you believe that billy donovan is ok with an offensive possession that ends with a raymond felton 18-footer and he's the only one to touch the ball?

If it keeps happening over and over and over again all the damn time, then yes, I think he thinks that kind of basketball is ok. We can't keep ignoring what's right in front of us just because the result is so horrible.

[slick_watts]

Rick Pitino and John Calipari, very experienced coaches who lead great NBA teams.

pitino and calipari were both fine coaches, they screwed their teams up as executives.

you're completely missing the point again, as usual, to escape putting any fault or blame whatsoever on russell westbrook for being difficult to coach.

[bondom34]

Rick Pitino and John Calipari, very experienced coaches who lead great NBA teams.

pitino and calipari were both fine coaches, they screwed their teams up as executives.

you're completely missing the point again, as usual, to escape putting any fault or blame whatsoever on russell westbrook for being difficult to coach.

Yes, clearly he's the reason there's no ball movement when he hasn't played. And actually, no they weren't. The history of NCAA coaches in the NBA is at best bad, and honestly awful. Sometimes the character you play here vs elsewhere becomes too strong to not see through

[Pillendreher]

Rick Pitino and John Calipari, very experienced coaches who lead great NBA teams.

pitino and calipari were both fine coaches, they screwed their teams up as executives.

you're completely missing the point again, as usual, to escape putting any fault or blame whatsoever on russell westbrook for being difficult to coach.

Yes, clearly he's the reason there's no ball movement when he hasn't played.

Sources are telling the German Inquirer that Russell Westbrook threatened Dennis Schröder publicly after the preseason because he was not shooting enough midrange jumpshots. Billy Donovan only shrugged and told Schröder to just do what Westbrook says.

[slick_watts]

What is the point of Donovan being there if the players that matter - according to you - completely ignore him on a regular basis and don't think that he matters at all?

i do not think the players "completely ignore" him. by all accounts the thunder have spirited and effective practices. donovan's first offseason was full of encouraging rhetoric. it was clear the guy had chops of some sort.

but, there's a difference between developing a gameplan and /or strategy and implementing one. the implementation has been difficult. i'll note again the issue of pnr defense that had to be scrapped soon after the 2015-16 season began. this has been donovan's problem so far as anyone can really tell from the reports-- which have been mostly consistent.

the implementation has been difficult because the thunder have a leader who is difficult to coach and a coach who had no prior professional experience to leverage. i guess we can blame donovan for that, but donovan didn't pick himself to coach the thunder. there's nothing in the world that is going to change that, unfortunately, and it's unfair to kind of pin that on donovan as a personal failing since it wasn't exactly a secret.

your commentary on this in general i think is referencing some idealized team utopia that simply does not exist at the pro level. like, really? is it donovan's responsibility to step into the OK3 dynamic and sort that out? do you really expect any coach to do that with the way that was pushed by the thunder? that seems unrealistic to me.

[slick_watts]

Yes, clearly he's the reason there's no ball movement when he hasn't played.

what are you even talking about. you're so weird and catty sometimes. this discussion is re: the horne commentary that pille posted from thunder buddies.

And actually, no they weren't. The history of NCAA coaches in the NBA is at best bad, and honestly awful. Sometimes the character you play here vs elsewhere becomes too strong to not see through

i was never an advocate (and i'm still not) for donovan as head coach precisely because of his lack of nba credentials and professional backbone. but that's not the reason pitino and calipari failed as coaches. you're wrong about both those guys-- they failed their teams for the exact opposite reason--because they were too imposing as executives. calipari was a monster, everyone hated him. they were fine and knowledgeable and decent coaches who alienated the organizations with their behavior and decision making.

[bondom34]

Yes, clearly he's the reason there's no ball movement when he hasn't played.

what are you even talking about. you're so weird and catty sometimes. this discussion is re: the horne commentary that pille posted from thunder buddies.

And actually, no they weren't. The history of NCAA coaches in the NBA is at best bad, and honestly awful. Sometimes the character you play here vs elsewhere becomes too strong to not see through

i was never an advocate (and i'm still not) for donovan as head coach precisely because of his lack of nba credentials and professional backbone. but that's not the reason pitino and calipari failed as coaches. you're wrong about both those guys-- they failed their teams for the exact opposite reason--because they were too imposing as executives. calipari was a monster, everyone hated him. they were fine and knowledgeable and decent coaches who alienated the organizations with their behavior and decision making.

Except even other NCAA coaches failed. And I'm talking specifically about the commentary here. If you want to blame him now, it just totally undermines any credibility and I know I can ignore you on the topic.

[slick_watts]

Except even other NCAA coaches failed.

ok...? i'm not sure how this is relevant. i kind of agree that donovan not having professional experience is a key factor in his inability to reach pro players and an insurmountable impediment. i don't think being from ncaa means he's incompetent. everything written about the guy is highlighting his basketball acumen, actually.

And I'm talking specifically about the commentary here. If you want to blame him now, it just totally undermines any credibility and I know I can ignore you on the topic.

what do you mean by 'now'? for the two losses? i'm not blaming russell westbrook for that, and i'm not even really blaming billy donovan. this team is what it is and has been identifying itself this way since kevin durant stepped on a plane and left for golden state. the thunder have developed a culture and identity imo that is at odds with self-reflection and optimization. the roster is constructed in such a way that almost seems purposefully built to avoid falling into current nba trends for success.

there's even a little bit of prideful and willful ignorance in there that had its seeds sown during dion waiters' tenure.

i don't expect the thunder to come out running a complicated offense with a lot of moving parts, or for them to have optimal shot selection or distribution no matter who is out there at this point.

who is to blame for the current thunder landscape? i think that's more at the heart of the horne commentary, and i think any reasonable person would agree that westbrook being difficult to coach is a factor.

[bondom34]

Except even other NCAA coaches failed.

ok...? i'm not sure how this is relevant. i kind of agree that donovan not having professional experience is a key factor in his inability to reach pro players and an insurmountable impediment. i don't think being from ncaa means he's incompetent. everything written about the guy is highlighting his basketball acumen, actually.

And I'm talking specifically about the commentary here. If you want to blame him now, it just totally undermines any credibility and I know I can ignore you on the topic.

what do you mean by 'now'? for the two losses? i'm not blaming russell westbrook for that, and i'm not even really blaming billy donovan. this team is what it is and has been identifying itself this way since kevin durant stepped on a plane and left for golden state. the thunder have developed a culture and identity imo that is at odds with self-reflection and optimization. the roster is constructed in such a way that almost seems purposefully built to avoid falling into current nba trends for success.

there's even a little bit of prideful and willful ignorance in there that had its seeds sown during dion waiters' tenure.

i don't expect the thunder to come out running a complicated offense with a lot of moving parts, or for them to have optimal shot selection or distribution no matter who is out there at this point.

who is to blame for the current thunder landscape? i think that's more at the heart of the horne commentary, and i think any reasonable person would agree that westbrook being difficult to coach is a factor.

Its relevant when you said Donovan has a bunch of experience. He doesn't in the NBA>

And the current Thunder landscape as you call it is because Presti hired a bad coach and cupcake left. Make a better hire, someone who actually has an offensive system.

Oh and ftr the "culture" as its referred to hasn't been an issue. They're off the court an excellent franchise, and on court mostly as well. They aren't built well for the current NBA on shooting, but otherwise are. There I agree with you.

So no, I don't think so. Because again, we've seen players leave OKC and do the same things until they're re-coached and coaches leave and coach the same. Brooks has looked bad now in WAS and hasthe same problems.

I'll let you alone now but you're just doing the thing again where when something's wrong its always the same culprit. See you tonight during the game

[slick_watts]

Its relevant when you said Donovan has a bunch of experience. He doesn't in the NBA>

his lack of experience hurts him when it comes to identifying with and leading grown men in the nba. i don't think it is indicative of an inability to gameplan or develop effective strategies. i don't believe that there is a gap between scott brooks and billy donovan when it comes to their basketball acumen, but there sure is in their ability to transmit that effectively to nba players. i disagreed with pille that billy donovan is inept schematically.

And the current Thunder landscape as you call it is because Presti hired a bad coach and cupcake left. Make a better hire, someone who actually has an offensive system.

those are both fruits of the thunder culture, imo. sam presti wanted someone compliant and got it. sam presti chose not to prioritize winning a championship over everything else throughout kevin durant's thunder career, so kevin durant decided to make that a priority for himself. pretty simple, really.

I'll let you alone now but you're just doing the thing again where when something's wrong its always the same culprit.

i'm sure i named three culprits. the main one is sam presti. i don't see why russell westbrook being difficult to coach is such an impossible thing for you to accept as a factor in all of this. do you honestly expect billy donovan to change him and his habits? is that a reasonable expectation for a coach in this situation?

[slick_watts]

Sources are telling the German Inquirer that Russell Westbrook threatened Dennis Schröder publicly after the preseason because he was not shooting enough midrange jumpshots. Billy Donovan only shrugged and told Schröder to just do what Westbrook says.

dennis was perfectly capable of sabotaging offenses and operating inefficiently long before he arrived in okc.

[wco81]

Is there any coach out there who can change the way the team plays?

Ultimately this other coach would have to somehow convince Westbrook and to a lesser extent, PG13, to change their ways.

Because those guys must be like demigods in OKC and will do whatever they want. Maybe it'll take doing worse than last season, as part of the multiyear trend of going one and out or not even making the playoffs for the stars to listen to a coach who says they must play another way.

[ThunderBolt]

Billy knows what he wants done on offense but russ kept sending out those George-led bench units last year.

i'm not suggesting billy donovan is infallible. but imposing structure on westbrook and / or george is not going to happen with any coach, imo. katz and darnell intimated this about westbrook before they left and it seems like horne is alluding to the same thing. this can be true as well as billy not being 100% optimal with his rotation decisions. there are obvious things occurring on the court that can't be the result of any professional basketball coaching.

there's no need for the polarization. horne had some lucid and direct commentary on the situation that is worth paying attention to. he did say that billy has his own issues, also. which-- duh. he does.

Russ is a very flawed superstar in my opinion. However, if an inmate doesn’t seem beyond reform, you don't nove him to a minimum security prison or just assign him a parole officer. That’s basically what Donovan is to the team. Should we blame russ, Billy or Sam? Yes to all three.

Yes, Dononvan may be the exact guy Presti wanted for the team. What are you suggesting the solution to be? Should they have bailed on Westbrook? Top end NBA talent is hard enough to acquire that you go through twenty coaches if you have to before you trade the star, in my opinion. The exception is if you get a guy like boogie cousins. It might be a bit of a moot point debating where blame should go because russ is 30 and the window is closing quickly.

[slick_watts]

Russ is a very flawed superstar in my opinion. However, if an inmate doesn’t seem beyond reform, you don't nove him to a minimum security prison or just assign him a parole officer. That’s basically what Donovan is to the team. Should we blame russ, Billy or Sam? Yes to all three.

i agree with this wholeheartedly. but i also think sam made the decision to hire donovan believing that kd would be around. if kd were still on the thunder all this might all be moot. the talent on the team overwhelmed whatever shortcomings donovan may have, and the borderline miraculous 2016 playoff run shows. the treatment of westbrook post-kd has only made it more difficult to pull back the reins. i don't understand bondom's interpretation that i am only blaming westbrook for this, because i'm not.

What are you suggesting the solution to be?

it's too late for anything meaningful. if you fire donovan who replaces him? it doesn't fix the roster imbalances. these are all lessons imo that would apply to a rebuild, which will happen sooner or later.