2018 Offseason Thread

Kizz Fastfists · Post #4001 » by **Kizz Fastfists** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Butler is in the right. He never acted like this in Chicago because even when he was playing with less talent they all gave effort and wanted to win. That is his issue in Minny is Wiggins and KAT don't give then effort needed to win. When he can show up and abuse the starters with the end of the bench that should tell you all you need to know about how they feel about competition. They should have been giving full effort to destroy Butler after the stuff he has said about them so either they are really bad or they just don't have any pride.

If Presti can pull off a crazy Butler trade like Schroder, Roberson, Ferguson and Abrines for Butler and Dieng I'd be thrilled.

Pillendreher · Post #4002 » by **Pillendreher** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:23 pm

Knrstz wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
Knrstz wrote:I’m interested in this tweet for other reasons.

Come hell or high water, I will stand by my Jimmy Butler take!

Even if you think he’s wrong, let’s let thunder culture mold him.

It'd be like walking a tightrope between success and yet another bad locker room situation. Melo at least kept his mouth shut publicly.

Kizz Fastfists wrote:Butler is in the right.

No, he is not. He's not playing for a bottom 3 team barely winning 20 games.

Kizz Fastfists wrote:He never acted like this in Chicago because even when he was playing with less talent they all gave effort and wanted to win.

What? He managed to make Rajon freaking Rondo look like a reasonable vet because he publicly went after the rest of the team with his buddy D-Washed. Who, incidentally, was right back at it causing problems in the lockerroom in Cleveland last season.

Kizz Fastfists wrote:That is his issue in Minny is Wiggins and KAT don't give then effort needed to win.

As currently constructed, his current team is probably winning 50 wins or so without any siginificant injuries to their most important players. Meanwhile, the "list" his camp leaked doesn't include a single team that is going to win anything thing season. He is contradicting himself, and no, Jimmy Buttler being a hard worker does not matter in this case.

Kizz Fastfists wrote:When he can show up and abuse the starters with the end of the bench that should tell you all you need to know about how they feel about competition. They should have been giving full effort to destroy Butler after the stuff he has said about them so either they are really bad or they just don't have any pride.

In a couple of years, the story will be that Butler took random guys from the local senior Center and managet to beat Towns and Wiggins by 100 points in 10 minutes. :roll:

Kizz Fastfists wrote:If Presti can pull off a crazy Butler trade like Schroder, Roberson, Ferguson and Abrines for Butler and Dieng I'd be thrilled.

Who wouldn't? But that's not the point of this conversation, is it. I would love a trade like that, but that doesn't do away with the issues as hand with him as a player.

Post #4003 » by **ThunderBolt** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:18 pm

Pillendreher wrote:
Knrstz wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
Come hell or high water, I will stand by my Jimmy Butler take!

Even if you think he’s wrong, let’s let thunder culture mold him.

It'd be like walking a tightrope between success and yet another bad locker room situation. Melo at least kept his mouth shut publicly

Yes Melo kept his mouth shut publicly but Katz tweeted that he was still an issue in the locker room despite being liked. Let’s not forget we traded him for a guy that is on video beating someone senseless. I don’t love how butler has handled everything but if his issue is really about playing with guys who lack effort then playing alongside Russ would be ideal. Jimmy has his flaws but his really freaking good when healthy. I don’t think he’s anywhere near the level of a Demarcus cousins. Scared money...

Post #4004 » by **bondom34** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:31 pm

I don't think anyone's in the right, and wouldn't really want him unless it's cheap (like Dre/Ferg and something else), but their FO is a wreck.

Pillendreher · Post #4005 » by **Pillendreher** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:34 pm

Knrstz wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
Knrstz wrote:Even if you think he’s wrong, let’s let thunder culture mold him.

It'd be like walking a tightrope between success and yet another bad locker room situation. Melo at least kept his mouth shut publicly

Yes Melo kept his mouth shut publicly but Katz tweeted that he was still an issue in the locker room despite being liked.

Really? I haven't been following him on Twitter since he left town. Do you have a link to that? From what I've heard, all beat guys have stated that it was never a problem in the lockerroom.

Knrstz wrote:Let’s not forget we traded him for a guy that is on video beating someone senseless.

Knrstz wrote:I don’t love how butler has handled everything but if his issue is really about playing with guys who lack effort then playing alongside Russ would be ideal. Jimmy has his flaws but his really freaking good when healthy. I don’t think he’s anywhere near the level of a Demarcus cousins. Scared money...

Don't get me wrong: If he could be had for the right price, I'd do that deal. But as of right now, I think it's reasonable to question his way of "leading" and how he treats teammates. Sure, we don't know what happened in Minnesota. But pulling the kind of stunts he has pulled over the last couple of days...I just wonder how that would work. What if he doesn't like it here either? People say Russ gives 120 %, yet ignore that he rarely plays proper defense. What if Jerami Grant continues to gamble on drawing fouls like he's a Superstar, yet the fouls don't come this season? Is Butler willing to accept an established pecking order? If I remember correctly, there were reports about veterans telling him to know his place when he was trying to "lead" a couple of years ago in Chicago.

Post #4006 » by **bondom34** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:37 pm

. “Jimmy has a very valid point,” George said. “I’m on Jimmy’s side. It’s not coming from a place where he’s going against an organization.”

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/24968532/paul-george-oklahoma-city-thunder-sides-jimmy-butler

spearsy23 · Post #4007 » by **spearsy23** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:44 am

bondom34 wrote:
. “Jimmy has a very valid point,” George said. “I’m on Jimmy’s side. It’s not coming from a place where he’s going against an organization.”

http://www.espn.co.uk/nba/story/_/id/24968532/paul-george-oklahoma-city-thunder-sides-jimmy-butler

I don't think that's shocking anyone.

Post #4008 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:53 am

Pillendreher wrote:It'd be like walking a tightrope between success and yet another bad locker room situation. Melo at least kept his mouth shut publicly.

melo's first words in okc were literally 'yo p! they want me to come of the bench!'. and you still berate him for that.

maybe if melo opened his mouth more everyone would have had a better idea of what he wanted.

Post #4009 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:55 am

Knrstz wrote:Scared money...

butler is unequivocally better than paul george. if there was opportunity to get him you get him.

alessandrux · Post #4010 » by **alessandrux** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:07 am

slick_watts wrote:
Knrstz wrote:Scared money...

butler is unequivocally better than paul george. if there was opportunity to get him you get him.

I don't think so.

George is the better floor stretcher/shooter, doesn't need necessarily the ball in his hands, can defend more positions better (because he is longer), has shown more in the post-season and is expected (at least by me) to sustain his performance for longer.

Post #4011 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:24 am

alessandrux wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
Knrstz wrote:Scared money...

butler is unequivocally better than paul george. if there was opportunity to get him you get him.

I don't think so.

George is the better floor stretcher/shooter, doesn't need necessarily the ball in his hands, can defend more positions better (because he is longer), has shown more in the post-season and is expected (at least by me) to sustain his performance for longer.

the one thing pg is better at is spot up shooting. butler is better on offense in every other aspect. notably, being a high level play maker and high usage scorer while keeping turnovers low. .450-.500 FTr. put butler in those lineups last year that george couldn't carry and it'd be a different story. george's derelict mid-range game for us is happening because he's just not elite with the ball in his hands the way a guy like butler is.

defensively, meh. i don't think there's any evidence that george is better than butler. butler's in the top 10 conversation, george is like top 15-20. they are different tiers imo.

Post #4012 » by **bondom34** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:50 am

Yeah Butler's better than PG. I don't know if it's miles better but a fair amount for sure, Butler's a top 10 guy, PG more like 20 or 25 maybe.

Also, Butler was right. It's just preseason but 84-53 at half.

Post #4013 » by **ThunderBolt** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:24 am

Pillendreher wrote:
Knrstz wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
It'd be like walking a tightrope between success and yet another bad locker room situation. Melo at least kept his mouth shut publicly

Yes Melo kept his mouth shut publicly but Katz tweeted that he was still an issue in the locker room despite being liked.

Really? I haven't been following him on Twitter since he left town. Do you have a link to that? From what I've heard, all beat guys have stated that it was never a problem in the lockerroom.

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Post #4014 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:25 am

bondom34 wrote:Yeah Butler's better than PG. I don't know if it's miles better but a fair amount for sure, Butler's a top 10 guy, PG more like 20 or 25 maybe.

Also, Butler was right. It's just preseason but 84-53 at half.

wolves can't defend without him. that was proven last year.

Post #4015 » by **ThunderBolt** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 2:31 am

George is a better fit alongside Westbrook. Butler is a better player. Add butler to this team for Schröder, Ferguson and Roberson and we are capable of beating the warriors even with Donovan as coach. When it comes to trading Adams for butler, I would still do it but I’ve been unimpressed with Noel.

Post #4016 » by **bondom34** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:15 am

Thanks to the GB for the new sig.

jambalaya · Post #4017 » by **jambalaya** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:47 am

I don't believe a team will get to western conference finals or beyond without at least very good offense. This team doesn't have enough shooting. It usually hasn't since Harden was traded. Offensive rebounding helps but can only do so much. They have to be great on getting to rim and / or fta rate. Fta rate is easier. I don't know if refs will continue to call the freedom of movement fouls as frequently in regular season. The long term trend in league has been toward less ftas awarded. But if they are going to call more, the Thunder need to catch this opportunity on the rise and smash it. 4th, 6th, 8th best on fta rate is not enough. It hasn't been.This team got to finals when and only when they were #1 on fta rate. The rationale for Schroder is drives for fouls perhaps more than anything else though he is actually below league average at this. Westbrook, George and Schroder all driving more might be enough to be #1 at this. Westbrook alone is not enough. His fta rate last season was almost at his career low. George's was good but not that special. They all need to step it up. Donovan has to make it happen. He has not shown the ability to generate good enough efg% to reach team goal. Defense may keep team in games against the elite; but they need a pretty elite offense and this is the best hope for it.

CROklahoma · Post #4018 » by **CROklahoma** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:03 am

Pretty valid point, agree with all you said.

Also, does anyone think Sam is trying, or tried to make a low ball offer under the radar to Wolves ?

Pillendreher · Post #4019 » by **Pillendreher** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:23 am

slick_watts wrote:george's derelict mid-range game for us is happening because he's just not elite with the ball in his hands the way a guy like butler is.

The drop off compared to prior seasons is too massive for that to be the (sole) reason. In the three seasons prior to George's first season with the Thunder (13/14, 15/16, 16/17), George shot 635/530, good for 41.5 %, from 10 ft out on 2pt jumpers. Out of those 635 made field goald attempts, 204 were assisted, which means not even every 3rd bucket. Looking at the same seasons, stats.nba.com has him at a combined 518/1218, 42.5 %, on pull up 2s.

We have three years of data showing us that George is a capable midrange shooter, even in pull up situations. We're gonna have to see what happens this season, but I think it's fair to assume that Paul George didn't suddenly become a horrible midrange shooter.

I for one think that last season there were severe spacing issues in the midrange because they had multiple guys wanting to launch from there and because Melo did not stick to his role and floated inside the arc way too much. Maybe with Patterson being more on the outside than on the inside (they have been doing this with the bench as well in the preseason: Grant, even though he can't shoot and was playing the 4, was on the perimeter on offense with Noel being the only guy inside the 3pt line), there will be a little more room. Although one has to wonder if Schröder playing next to Westbrook will result in the same kind of problems because he likes the midrange jumpshot as well...

Pillendreher · Post #4020 » by **Pillendreher** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:33 am

jambalaya wrote:I don't believe a team will get to western conference finals or beyond without at least very good offense. This team doesn't have enough shooting. It usually hasn't since Harden was traded. Offensive rebounding helps but can only do so much. They have to be great on getting to rim and / or fta rate. Fta rate is easier. I don't know if refs will continue to call the freedom of movement fouls as frequently in regular season. The long term trend in league has been toward less ftas awarded. But if they are going to call more, the Thunder need to catch this opportunity on the rise and smash it. 4th, 6th, 8th best on fta rate is not enough. It hasn't been.This team got to finals when and only when they were #1 on fta rate. The rationale for Schroder is drives for fouls perhaps more than anything else though he is actually below league average at this. Westbrook, George and Schroder all driving more might be enough to be #1 at this. Westbrook alone is not enough. His fta rate last season was almost at his career low. George's was good but not that special. They all need to step it up. Donovan has to make it happen. He has not shown the ability to generate good enough efg% to reach team goal. Defense may keep team in games against the elite; but they need a pretty elite offense and this is the best hope for it.

I think Schröder's ability to drive and generally to attack off the dribble could come in handy even besides foul drawing. Having another guy on the floor to attack the rim and therefore draw attention to him could give other Thunder players a little more space. Whereas Roberson was reluctant to put it on the floor in traffic because he would have to earn it at the ft line, I don't think Schröder gives any real thought to that: He's been a very regular driver the last couple of seasons (#26, #27, #6 and #5 in total drives over the last four seasons). If they can find a way to give him the opportunity to go to the rim regularly, it should force defenses to adapt. One step closer to he basket to help on a drive might be enough to free up a teammate near the rim for an easy finish (Adams, Noel, Grant, hell even some of the more athletic wings cutting to the basket) or give one of the few shooters on the team just a little more space to spot up and take a quality jumpshot. Either way: Higher FG% would help both on 2PA and 3PA, since the team wasn't in the top half of the league in either category last season.

PS: Regarding Russ I hope he can get back to both his normal FTr and FT% this season. He got screwed by the refs/some of the rule changes last season (he didn't even have a month where he reached his career average FTr last season; he also was 1st in total drives, but just 22nd in FTA/drives among the top 50 in total drives) and somehow managed to forget how to make FTs as well. Both going back to normal could sure as hell help this team efficiency wise; he did shoot the 2nd best percentage from 2 point range of his career last season after all.

PSS: Something I just noticed: Paul George was sneaky good at drawing fouls while driving last season. Among the Top 50 in total drives last season, he was 3rd in FGA/Drive. The only other guys with a higher percentage than him were Harden and Giannis.