OKC Thunder Offseason 2015

[kd 35]

I made a CamPayne campaign button!



Feel free to use it as your avatar.

Av size:

[bondom34]

Sweet, updated .

[bondom34]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/kustoo/status/614887000278044672[/tweet]

[spearsy23]

:lol:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/kustoo/status/614887000278044672[/tweet]

KD better step his game up, I was in the 70's last time I went to D&B

[kd 35]

Man, I like this kid already. Classy tweet -- (don't get to say that very often).
[tweet]https://twitter.com/campayne/status/614593563674873856[/tweet]

CAMPAYNE 2015

[Bravenewworld]

You should tweet him the avatar you made

[Soonerule]

Your kidding about 2013, surely. The Thunder was the best team in the West and went into the playoffs with the #4 ranked defense in the NBA. What is silly is to allude that the Thunder would have been just as good with a player that shot 37% in the 2012 Finals and scored 62 points as with the player that shot 52% and scored 135.

What Kanter offers is a negative net rating. In fact, the worst of all the Thunder bigs.... all of them:

1. Mitch McGary - +4.0
2. Serge Ibaka - +3.6
3. Nick Collison - +2.6
4. Steven Adams - +0.2
5. Enes Kanter - -2.6

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?PlayerID=202683&VsPlayerID=201586

Has Harden finished a season with a negative net? Ever? What Kanter offers is a chance to play catch up every time he sits down because the other team scored more points than we did when he was on the floor, a scene we saw repeated on multiple occasions this past season.

Just for the record, if the Warriors didn't have Iguodala, LBJ would have made the Warriors his bitch.

Jumping all over the place here...


1. Welp. Go tell the OKC front office you have it all figured out. They might give you a few million dollars for saving them tens of millions.
Just so you know, i dont do the advanced stats arguments.

2. So tell me, what does Harden's shooting in the Finals have to do with what he could have done for us in 2013? By this rational since Harden played fantastic in the series before the finals in 2012, but in the 2012 finals did not really show up (kind of expected for such a young player)....then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013? Play fantastic up until the finals? Which means.... no second round knock out? WCF winners? Even using your own steps of logic we can show that they would have been far better off.

3. Im not sure if you noticed, but coaching won the final two games of the finals this year.

4. Im betting we could find a 20 game section of Harden's career with okc where yes, he would have been in the negative. Which is essentially what youre doing with Kanter and exactly why i dislike the whole advanced stats arguments.

1. Condescending much? FYI-One of the reasons Billy Donovan was hired was because he does the advanced stat argument.

2. I'll go with the more direct rationale, Harden couldn't beat the Thunder even without Russell in the lineup in 2013.

3. Without Iguodala, Kerr could have coached til his head exploded and LeBron would have still made Golden State his bitch.

4. Ah, so it's not advanced stats, it's the sample size that is the problem? Twenty games not big enough? How about a career stat? Kanter has a career -4.97 net rating. I will say this, if we were talking about a glorified game of H.O.R.S.E. , Kanter would be the man.

[QPR]

Payne has already gone up in my estimation as he correctly used "would have" instead of the irritating "would of"

[Pillendreher]

Do you guys really think Payne will the see the floor regularly? Is he that good or better than DJ?

[bondom34]

Do you guys really think Payne will the see the floor regularly? Is he that good or better than DJ?

I hope so, I mean there were times Dion ran point, I'd rather him.

[Pillendreher]

Now I know you're just messing with me. Nobody would ever want to take the ball out of his hands because that would make him a spot-up shooter. That's even worse than him bringing the ball up the court.

[bondom34]

Now I know you're just messing with me. Nobody would ever want to take the ball out of his hands because that would make him a spot-up shooter. That's even worse than him bringing the ball up the court.

Sadly you're right.

[Kizz Fastfists]

Do you guys really think Payne will the see the floor regularly? Is he that good or better than DJ?

I'm not sure he will, but it is possible. Augustin as a spot up shooter isn't a bad thing at all. Augustin is a career 40% shooter on corner 3s and shot 48% on them with the Thunder last year. I'd much rather see Payne on the court than Waiters. A Payne/Russ or Payne/Augustin combo would not be bad, assuming that Augustin can defend the SG or Roberson is on the floor with them to defend the other team's best offensive guard/wing.

[Bravenewworld]

Your kidding about 2013, surely. The Thunder was the best team in the West and went into the playoffs with the #4 ranked defense in the NBA. What is silly is to allude that the Thunder would have been just as good with a player that shot 37% in the 2012 Finals and scored 62 points as with the player that shot 52% and scored 135.

What Kanter offers is a negative net rating. In fact, the worst of all the Thunder bigs.... all of them:

1. Mitch McGary - +4.0
2. Serge Ibaka - +3.6
3. Nick Collison - +2.6
4. Steven Adams - +0.2
5. Enes Kanter - -2.6

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!/advanced?PlayerID=202683&VsPlayerID=201586

Has Harden finished a season with a negative net? Ever? What Kanter offers is a chance to play catch up every time he sits down because the other team scored more points than we did when he was on the floor, a scene we saw repeated on multiple occasions this past season.

Just for the record, if the Warriors didn't have Iguodala, LBJ would have made the Warriors his bitch.

Jumping all over the place here...


1. Welp. Go tell the OKC front office you have it all figured out. They might give you a few million dollars for saving them tens of millions.
Just so you know, i dont do the advanced stats arguments.

2. So tell me, what does Harden's shooting in the Finals have to do with what he could have done for us in 2013? By this rational since Harden played fantastic in the series before the finals in 2012, but in the 2012 finals did not really show up (kind of expected for such a young player)....then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013? Play fantastic up until the finals? Which means.... no second round knock out? WCF winners? Even using your own steps of logic we can show that they would have been far better off.

3. Im not sure if you noticed, but coaching won the final two games of the finals this year.

4. Im betting we could find a 20 game section of Harden's career with okc where yes, he would have been in the negative. Which is essentially what youre doing with Kanter and exactly why i dislike the whole advanced stats arguments.

1. Condescending much? FYI-One of the reasons Billy Donovan was hired was because he does the advanced stat argument.

2. I'll go with the more direct rationale, Harden couldn't beat the Thunder even without Russell in the lineup in 2013.

3. Without Iguodala, Kerr could have coached til his head exploded and LeBron would have still made Golden State his bitch.

4. Ah, so it's not advanced stats, it's the sample size that is the problem? Twenty games not big enough? How about a career stat? Kanter has a career -4.97 net rating. I will say this, if we were talking about a glorified game of H.O.R.S.E. , Kanter would be the man.

1. Sure it is a bit condescending. But its also true.
Donovan was brought in because we missed the playoffs while having a pretty stacked team and a coach who was unable to capitalize off having such skilled big men.

2. Sure. Thats not really a "more direct rationale" and you're jumping all over the place with that one, but whatever.

3. AI2 was a bonus for Kerr. It was his changes in big men that exploited the Cavs. It was tricking a bad coach into taking his low post 28/10 center out after only 9 minutes, and then in the next game, playing a little game of swap.

4. I was highlighting that if you dont use them properly, you can make advanced stats say whatever you want. If you want, you can go back to one of the many arguments ive had on these forums about this subject and where i showed an example of how we could make Marco Jeric look better than michael Jordan with isolated advanced statistics. Thats why i dont do them or like them, because people misuse them and turn topics into circular narratives that are easily destroyed when taken a bit further, but no one likes to do that after theyve hand crafted such a great story.

[bondom34]

I keep seeing this Marco Jeric thing, but I've never ever heard that point made by anyone with any respectable knowledge. Its maybe the biggest strawman out there for advanced stats. Jeric is only known because he married a supermodel, which is completely irrelevant to basketball. I keep seeing that as some point against advanced stats but its never actually been expanded on and really until it is I just don't believe anyone's ever said it.

[Bravenewworld]

I keep seeing this Marco Jeric thing, but I've never ever heard that point made by anyone with any respectable knowledge. Its maybe the biggest strawman out there for advanced stats. Jeric is only known because he married a supermodel, which is completely irrelevant to basketball. I keep seeing that as some point against advanced stats but its never actually been expanded on and really until it is I just don't believe anyone's ever said it.

Im pretty sure you were in that argument, but at this point it was years ago... i dont even remember what the topic was.

And its not a srawman argument against AS, its pointing out that if you don't properly use them, and nit pick, you can create whatever narrative you want. You do this all the time. You did it just last week. And i kept pointing out the major flaw in what you were saying, but you just put up a brick wall and refused to acknowledge what was being shown to you. Don't say that its never been expanded on or shown to you, you ignore it... so much so that you were willing to lock a thread to avoid it.

[Soonerule]

1. Welp. Go tell the OKC front office you have it all figured out. They might give you a few million dollars for saving them tens of millions.
Just so you know, i dont do the advanced stats arguments.

2. So tell me, what does Harden's shooting in the Finals have to do with what he could have done for us in 2013? By this rational since Harden played fantastic in the series before the finals in 2012, but in the 2012 finals did not really show up (kind of expected for such a young player)....then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013? Play fantastic up until the finals? Which means.... no second round knock out? WCF winners? Even using your own steps of logic we can show that they would have been far better off.

3. Im not sure if you noticed, but coaching won the final two games of the finals this year.

4. Im betting we could find a 20 game section of Harden's career with okc where yes, he would have been in the negative. Which is essentially what youre doing with Kanter and exactly why i dislike the whole advanced stats arguments.

1. Condescending much? FYI-One of the reasons Billy Donovan was hired was because he does the advanced stat argument.

2. I'll go with the more direct rationale, Harden couldn't beat the Thunder even without Russell in the lineup in 2013.

3. Without Iguodala, Kerr could have coached til his head exploded and LeBron would have still made Golden State his bitch.

4. Ah, so it's not advanced stats, it's the sample size that is the problem? Twenty games not big enough? How about a career stat? Kanter has a career -4.97 net rating. I will say this, if we were talking about a glorified game of H.O.R.S.E. , Kanter would be the man.

1. Sure it is a bit condescending. But its also true.
Donovan was brought in because we missed the playoffs while having a pretty stacked team and a coach who was unable to capitalize off having such skilled big men.

2. Sure. Thats not really a "more direct rationale" and you're jumping all over the place with that one, but whatever.

3. AI2 was a bonus for Kerr. It was his changes in big men that exploited the Cavs. It was tricking a bad coach into taking his low post 28/10 center out after only 9 minutes, and then in the next game, playing a little game of swap.

4. I was highlighting that if you dont use them properly, you can make advanced stats say whatever you want. If you want, you can go back to one of the many arguments ive had on these forums about this subject and where i showed an example of how we could make Marco Jeric look better than michael Jordan with isolated advanced statistics. Thats why i dont do them or like them, because people misuse them and turn topics into circular narratives that are easily destroyed when taken a bit further, but no one likes to do that after theyve hand crafted such a great story.

1. I don't think missing the playoffs had as much to do with Brooks being dismissed as some people think. Presti started paving the way for Donovan the year before when he hired Mark Daigneault and Oliver Winterbone from Donovan's staff. IMO, nothing short of an NBA title would have kept Brooks on the sideline and my guess is Presti knew he wouldn't be able to deliver. Why do I mention Oliver Winterbone? Who is Oliver Winterbone? Winterbone was Donovan's video coordinator and now is a basketball information analyst for the Thunder and is credited with Donovan becoming infatuated with advanced stats, a subject near and dear to Presti's heart.

2. I'm jumping all over the place? I simply followed your query "then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013?" regarding Harden. So who is jumping where?

3. A12 was a bonus? The series MVP was a bonus? The man that kept Lebron's efficiency in check was a bonus? If Iguodala doesn't put the brakes on Lebron in game 1, Golden State finds itself in a "3 - 0 no team has EVER overcome hole" rather than a manageable 2 -1 deficit, the overtime that cost the Cavs Kyrie Irving never would have happened and his minutes and skill would have sealed the deal for the Cavs. A bonus...

4. So if I took the advanced stats you like and backed you up it would be okay, but since I understand that the game of basketball is played on both ends and take that into consideration and it doesn't back you up I am cherry picking my stats? Gotcha

[Bravenewworld]

1. I don't think missing the playoffs had as much to do with Brooks being dismissed as some people think. Presti started paving the way for Donovan the year before when he hired Mark Daigneault and Oliver Winterbone from Donovan's staff. IMO, nothing short of an NBA title would have kept Brooks on the sideline and my guess is Presti knew he wouldn't be able to deliver. Why do I mention Oliver Winterbone? Who is Oliver Winterbone? Winterbone was Donovan's video coordinator and now is a basketball information analyst for the Thunder and is credited with Donovan becoming infatuated with advanced stats, a subject near and dear to Presti's heart.

2. I'm jumping all over the place? I simply followed your query "then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013?" regarding Harden. So who is jumping where?

3. A12 was a bonus? The series MVP was a bonus? The man that kept Lebron's efficiency in check was a bonus? If Iguodala doesn't put the brakes on Lebron in game 1, Golden State finds itself in a "3 - 0 no team has EVER overcome hole" rather than a manageable 2 -1 deficit, the overtime that cost the Cavs Kyrie Irving never would have happened and his minutes and skill would have sealed the deal for the Cavs. A bonus...

4. So if I took the advanced stats you like and backed you up it would be okay, but since I understand that the game of basketball is played on both ends and take that into consideration and it doesn't back you up I am cherry picking my stats? Gotcha

1. Getting rid of Brooks was something Presti wanted to do for a while. And i think it was because of his lack of being an X's and O's coach. He simply needed a viable reason. Had Brooks continued to coach a team that regularly made the WCFs, Presti would not have been able to fire him, he'd have to wait until his contract was up and even then it would look iffy.

2. You do get that my response was direct to your 2012 thing right? You said that Harden failed us in the 2012 Finals thus if we had him in 2013 we could expect the same thing. Where i responded with, okay, then that means we would have made the finals. Which would have been a very clear improvement from where we were at. If youre going to apply this idea that we can just shift everything from one year to the next, then that simply suggests he would have played fantastic up until the Finals.... right?

3. Yah. He got series MVP because of what he was unexpectedly able to do. You say "series MVP", but no one expected him to be.
Either way, im done with this. Coaching won the final two games, period.

4. No. I dont use them and i try to avoid them at all costs. You'll almost never find me using them in any argument.
I mean, just look at what youre doing with them and you can see exactly why i dislike them.
You are presenting a case as to basically why Kanter is some garbage big man, and you're using one advanced stat to do so. You can maybe expand this to one or two, but it doesnt much matter because AS are meant to go along with everything to create a better overall picture. Not specifically say "player A is garbage because.... AS 14".
And the real silliness of this is the fact that you're doing all of this while ignoring the fact that every professional who is paid millions to understand these numbers, does not support what youre saying.... and does not support it, because theyre not creating a narrative.
I mean, you think its condescending but again.... if you've figured something out that professionals have missed, go cash a check, im sure theyll be more than happy to give you one.
But i think we both know that no professional would even suggest you're remotely close to being accurate because of how narrow of a point you've attempted to make.

[Marcus50]

1. I don't think missing the playoffs had as much to do with Brooks being dismissed as some people think. Presti started paving the way for Donovan the year before when he hired Mark Daigneault and Oliver Winterbone from Donovan's staff. IMO, nothing short of an NBA title would have kept Brooks on the sideline and my guess is Presti knew he wouldn't be able to deliver. Why do I mention Oliver Winterbone? Who is Oliver Winterbone? Winterbone was Donovan's video coordinator and now is a basketball information analyst for the Thunder and is credited with Donovan becoming infatuated with advanced stats, a subject near and dear to Presti's heart.

2. I'm jumping all over the place? I simply followed your query "then cant we simply suggest the same for 2013?" regarding Harden. So who is jumping where?

3. A12 was a bonus? The series MVP was a bonus? The man that kept Lebron's efficiency in check was a bonus? If Iguodala doesn't put the brakes on Lebron in game 1, Golden State finds itself in a "3 - 0 no team has EVER overcome hole" rather than a manageable 2 -1 deficit, the overtime that cost the Cavs Kyrie Irving never would have happened and his minutes and skill would have sealed the deal for the Cavs. A bonus...

4. So if I took the advanced stats you like and backed you up it would be okay, but since I understand that the game of basketball is played on both ends and take that into consideration and it doesn't back you up I am cherry picking my stats? Gotcha

1. Getting rid of Brooks was something Presti wanted to do for a while. And i think it was because of his lack of being an X's and O's coach. He simply needed a viable reason. Had Brooks continued to coach a team that regularly made the WCFs, Presti would not have been able to fire him, he'd have to wait until his contract was up and even then it would look iffy.

2. You do get that my response was direct to your 2012 thing right? You said that Harden failed us in the 2012 Finals thus if we had him in 2013 we could expect the same thing. Where i responded with, okay, then that means we would have made the finals. Which would have been a very clear improvement from where we were at. If youre going to apply this idea that we can just shift everything from one year to the next, then that simply suggests he would have played fantastic up until the Finals.... right?

3. Yah. He got series MVP because of what he was unexpectedly able to do. You say "series MVP", but no one expected him to be.
Either way, im done with this. Coaching won the final two games, period.

4. No. I dont use them and i try to avoid them at all costs. You'll almost never find me using them in any argument.
I mean, just look at what youre doing with them and you can see exactly why i dislike them.
You are presenting a case as to basically why Kanter is some garbage big man, and you're using one advanced stat to do so. You can maybe expand this to one or two, but it doesnt much matter because AS are meant to go along with everything to create a better overall picture. Not specifically say "player A is garbage because.... AS 14".
And the real silliness of this is the fact that you're doing all of this while ignoring the fact that every professional who is paid millions to understand these numbers, does not support what youre saying.... and does not support it, because theyre not creating a narrative.
I mean, you think its condescending but again.... if you've figured something out that professionals have missed, go cash a check, im sure theyll be more than happy to give you one.
But i think we both know that no professional would even suggest you're remotely close to being accurate because of how narrow of a point you've attempted to make.

Presti has rolled the dice this year in a big way. I agree it was apparent he wanted to replace Brooks and it made some sense. In the next two years he faces resigning the three most important players in the franchise in KD, Russ and Serge and to do that I would have thought the team has to at least make the WCF this year if not the Championship finals. I don't think they necessarily need to win the whole thing but that would help.

To win the whole thing he needed to improve the roster and whilst I would have much preferred signing Lopez, signing Kanter Singler, Waiters DJA is a big part of it so the next priority for Presti will be to resign Kanter and Singler. We might not all like all of the signings but as pieces Donovan should be able to build a workable team around KD, Russ and Serge. I am not convinced he has all the right pieces but it is something he might try to address through FA or trades.

It is likely that

RW, AR, KD, SI and EK will start.

A rotation of DJ, Morrow, Waiters, Adams, Nick and McGary with situational minutes for Payne, Singler and Heustis seems the likely outcome with PJ3 and Novak probably not being on the roster at the start of the season.

It will be very interesting to see whether Donovan embraces more small lineups. If that is the case he is a bit jammed up with bigs and we could see one of them traded at some point through the season. Unlikely that this will occur before they have a chance to see whether Kanter's defense is better than expected with the whole team back or he is a defensive bust. If Kanter brings a useful defensive game I can see Adams or McGary traded for value at some point through the season even though they are on cheap rookie contracts. It makes no sense limiting their playing time and lowering their trade value through the season and I am picking we will be desperate for a 2 way SG before the ASB

[Bravenewworld]

Presti has rolled the dice this year in a big way. I agree it was apparent he wanted to replace Brooks and it made some sense. In the next two years he faces resigning the three most important players in the franchise in KD, Russ and Serge and to do that I would have thought the team has to at least make the WCF this year if not the Championship finals. I don't think they necessarily need to win the whole thing but that would help.

To win the whole thing he needed to improve the roster and whilst I would have much preferred signing Lopez, signing Kanter Singler, Waiters DJA is a big part of it so the next priority for Presti will be to resign Kanter and Singler. We might not all like all of the signings but as pieces Donovan should be able to build a workable team around KD, Russ and Serge. I am not convinced he has all the right pieces but it is something he might try to address through FA or trades.

It is likely that

RW, AR, KD, SI and EK will start.

A rotation of DJ, Morrow, Waiters, Adams, Nick and McGary with situational minutes for Payne, Singler and Heustis seems the likely outcome with PJ3 and Novak probably not being on the roster at the start of the season.

It will be very interesting to see whether Donovan embraces more small lineups. If that is the case he is a bit jammed up with bigs and we could see one of them traded at some point through the season. Unlikely that this will occur before they have a chance to see whether Kanter's defense is better than expected with the whole team back or he is a defensive bust. If Kanter brings a useful defensive game I can see Adams or McGary traded for value at some point through the season even though they are on cheap rookie contracts. It makes no sense limiting their playing time and lowering their trade value through the season and I am picking we will be desperate for a 2 way SG before the ASB

If we had to get a center who is a poor defender, im glad it was Kanter over Lopez for multiple reasons.
1. Contract.
2. Health.
3. Abilities.
Kanter has an advantage in all three.

Personally im fine with everyone we brought in. I think they should all be given a chance and most will work out. Donovan is perfect for our big men and guards, he is great with SFs and using them as a bonus to an offense.
Im pretty excited for this team.
At this point i dont know who would possibly be traded, Kanter, McGary and Adams seem capable of producing high numbers very quickly. I really don't know if keeping our depth would be limiting anyone but McGary as Adams and Kanter are generally not full time guys.
But i dunno, cant wait for the Summer League so we can see how Cam does.