2018-2019 OKC Thunder Regular Season Pt 1: A Renewed Hope

[bondom34]

Its relevant when you said Donovan has a bunch of experience. He doesn't in the NBA>

his lack of experience hurts him when it comes to identifying with and leading grown men in the nba. i don't think it is indicative of an inability to gameplan or develop effective strategies. i don't believe that there is a gap between scott brooks and billy donovan when it comes to their basketball acumen, but there sure is in their ability to transmit that effectively to nba players. i disagreed with pille that billy donovan is inept schematically.

And the current Thunder landscape as you call it is because Presti hired a bad coach and cupcake left. Make a better hire, someone who actually has an offensive system.

those are both fruits of the thunder culture, imo. sam presti wanted someone compliant and got it. sam presti chose not to prioritize winning a championship over everything else throughout kevin durant's thunder career, so kevin durant decided to make that a priority for himself. pretty simple, really.

I'll let you alone now but you're just doing the thing again where when something's wrong its always the same culprit.

i'm sure i named three culprits. the main one is sam presti. i don't see why russell westbrook being difficult to coach is such an impossible thing for you to accept as a factor in all of this. do you honestly expect billy donovan to change him and his habits? is that a reasonable expectation for a coach in this situation?

Its difficultbecause hes changed pretty vastly from his rookie yearand onward and theres no tangible proof and much more that he is coacahble?

[slick_watts]

Its difficultbecause hes changed pretty vastly from his rookie yearand onward and theres no tangible proof and much more that he is coacahble?

just so we are clear, are you disregarding the reports of horne, katz, and mayberry on westbrook's coachability?

[bondom34]

Its difficultbecause hes changed pretty vastly from his rookie yearand onward and theres no tangible proof and much more that he is coacahble?

just so we are clear, are you disregarding the reports of horne, katz, and mayberry on westbrook's coachability?

Just so we are clear, are you disregarding that none of them actually knows this, and they are speculating? And taht Durant had the same issues until he got a eal coach and that Westbrook has changed?

[Pillendreher]

What if the coache's gameplan to let almost everybody do what they want? If your argument is that the way this team has played since Donovan arrived is due to Westbrook not being willing to try it any other way, shouldn't that lead to Westbrook being fully behind whatever the hell Donovan is telling them?

i think that billy donovan's approach has been dictated tremendously by what his star player(s) prefer. paul george more or less said this.

And that might be the case. But I ask you again: What's the point of even employing him then?

Blaming this completely on Westbrook is ignoring the main issue

except i'm not doing this. westbrook has the power to do what he wants because he's been empowered to do so. what can billy do to change that? that is a cultural thing that needs to come from higher up

Give me a break with this, man.

i don't think it's sensible to question his basketball knowledge.

Tough luck for you then because he has done all kinds of nonsense while being our HC. I don't care what he was praised for when training children in Florida. He has pulled enough bull in the pros.

I could easily pinpoint these comments to the Thunder having bad coaching over the years. Westbrook is turning 30 soon and has never had a single coach in his NBA career that is actually known for his X and Os. And yes, I think Brooks is better than Donovan, but that doesn't make him a basketball mastermind. All of his career, he has been coached by guys that built their offense around "him being him". Forgive me for not buying the "It's Westbrook" take.

except this is the third thunder beat reporter talking about this problem. it's a factor. everyone knows it's a factor.

Of course it's a factor. The question is: Do we ignore every horrible decision Donovan has made over the last three years simply because we want to believe that a franchise is controlled by a single person?

your commentary on this in general i think is referencing some idealized team utopia that simply does not exist at the pro level. like, really? is it donovan's responsibility to step into the OK3 dynamic and sort that out? do you really expect any coach to do that with the way that was pushed by the thunder? that seems unrealistic to me.

It's not unrealistic. It's part of his job. Player management is part of what a coach does. You keep finding excuses for his many shortcomings. I ask you again: Why is he even employed if nobody can be bothered to demand from him to do things a coach normally does?

-Rotations? Roster problems
-Offensive strategy? Westbrook
-Lack of discipline? Westbrook
-Lack of self-awareness? Westbrook
-Ignoring hard facts in favor of weird ideas what should work even though it doesn't and ever has? The neighbor's cat

Why is he here?

[slick_watts]

Its difficultbecause hes changed pretty vastly from his rookie yearand onward and theres no tangible proof and much more that he is coacahble?

just so we are clear, are you disregarding the reports of horne, katz, and mayberry on westbrook's coachability?

Just so we are clear, are you disregarding that none of them actually knows this, and they are speculating? And taht Durant had the same issues until he got a eal coach and that Westbrook has changed?

you are disregarding them because it is speculation?

i don't think steve kerr is the reason kd has fallen in line over there, i think it's his teammates and organizational structure. if steph curry, draymond green, and klay thompson weren't taking the gsw coaching staff's instructions seriously, kd surely would not. kerr was something of a milquetoast as an executive in phoenix, and was the locker room punching bag as a player in chicago. there's a chicken or the egg logical problem here as to whether steve kerr being a persuasive tactician is responsible for the warriors listening to him, or if the trickle down effect of steph curry being a willing participant is responsible. either way, the thunder seem to lack both things (a willing participant, and a persuasive tactician).

i agree that westbrook has changed. he more or less owns the franchise now. how does billy donovan confront him, exactly? or any coach? how do they persuade him to change? i don't know that is is possible at this point. that's what horne and katz have said, essentially.

[slick_watts]

And that might be the case. But I ask you again: What's the point of even employing him then?

because you have to pay him if you fire him. and weigh that expense against the projected benefits of installing a replacement. like i said, i'm not exactly a donovan advocate. he was low on my list and still is. but not for the reasons you have.

Tough luck for you then because he has done all kinds of nonsense while being our HC. I don't care what he was praised for when training children in Florida. He has pulled enough bull in the pros.

if someone demonstrates basketball acumen and the skill to develop basketball strategies and gameplans, you don't think that would be portable from level to level? that seems real thin to me. lots of great basketball minds got started in college. i don't think donovan would have received the commendations and praise he has from his peers if he were an incapable tactician.

Of course it's a factor. The question is: Do we ignore every horrible decision Donovan has made over the last three years simply because we want to believe that a franchise is controlled by a single person?

why are you and bondom so polarizing all the time? no, you don't ignore every horrible decision. i doubt the thunder are. the context of the coaching performance is important though, and that's why horne and others are adding caveats to their criticism of donovan.

the thunder's decision making is driven mostly by what will make russell westbrook happy. do you disagree with this statement?

It's not unrealistic. It's part of his job. Player management is part of what a coach does. You keep finding excuses for his many shortcomings. I ask you again: Why is he even employed if nobody can be bothered to demand from him to do things a coach normally does?

-Rotations? Roster problems
-Offensive strategy? Westbrook
-Lack of discipline? Westbrook
-Lack of self-awareness? Westbrook
-Ignoring hard facts in favor of weird ideas what should work even though it doesn't and ever has? The neighbor's cat

Why is he here?

so what should billy donovan do? go to paul george and russell westbrook and demand they change their games? demand it from schroder? schroder didn't change for coach bud, someone with far more professional clout than billy donovan- why would we ever expect donovan to get something different out of him?

donovan is employed because he is under contract. he's compliant and russell westbrook and paul george seem to like him well enough. what incentive is there for the thunder to fire him, and pay another coach who may or may not perform better in that role? expecting billy donovan to change the thunder on-the-court culture is definitely unrealistic since this is what he was brought in to maintain.

i haven't mentioned this because it should go without saying. but you're making a lot of assumptions about what donovan might be saying and not saying, instructions he may be giving or not giving, etc. you have your mind set on donovan being the scapegoat, just like you and many others had their mindset on scott brooks being the scapegoat. i remember clearly a large contingent of thunder fans were convinced that when brooks was fired it was impossible to find a coach who would perform worse than he did. interesting how that works, huh.

[Osirus89]

I just can't with Bildo anymore. Not only is he a criminally unimaginative coach, he doesn't even seem to operate the team based on merit or what players deserve.

Why the **** is Ferguson still starting? I've conceded that he will never start Abrines for his own reasons. However, why is TLC glued to the bench? Is he technically hurt or something? Ferguson should be competing for his spot as a starter, not just grandfathered in.
F' that. It's either coming from above or Donovan actually thinks Ferguson is unassailable as the starter until Dre is back.

Regarding Brooks and Donovan... the correct answer is that both of them suck. Go over to the Washington board and ask them how they feel about him. He is almost universally despised.

Don't just take my word for it:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1758401
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1635986
Then look through any game thread for more evidence.

Presti can't evaluate coaches to save his life.

[slick_watts]

Presti can't evaluate coaches to save his life.

sam presti's criteria for head coach is probably very different from most fans'.

[bondom34]

just so we are clear, are you disregarding the reports of horne, katz, and mayberry on westbrook's coachability?

Just so we are clear, are you disregarding that none of them actually knows this, and they are speculating? And taht Durant had the same issues until he got a eal coach and that Westbrook has changed?

you are disregarding them because it is speculation?

i don't think steve kerr is the reason kd has fallen in line over there, i think it's his teammates and organizational structure. if steph curry, draymond green, and klay thompson weren't taking the gsw coaching staff's instructions seriously, kd surely would not. kerr was something of a milquetoast as an executive in phoenix, and was the locker room punching bag as a player in chicago. there's a chicken or the egg logical problem here as to whether steve kerr being a persuasive tactician is responsible for the warriors listening to him, or if the trickle down effect of steph curry being a willing participant is responsible. either way, the thunder seem to lack both things (a willing participant, and a persuasive tactician).

i agree that westbrook has changed. he more or less owns the franchise now. how does billy donovan confront him, exactly? or any coach? how do they persuade him to change? i don't know that is is possible at this point. that's what horne and katz have said, essentially.

I mean given you even admit he has changed, but totaly speculate he won't further, that logic doesn't follow. And the coach cleary has nothing in line to show he tried becaues nobody on the team ever does

[slick_watts]

I mean given you even admit he has changed, but totaly speculate he won't further, that logic doesn't follow.

the changes have deepened the issues we have. that's why i don't expect him to change. not without incentive to do so. fred katz said that the thunder spent most of last season unsure of why they were losing. the picture he painted of the dynamics here are not flattering, and not consistent with the thought that westbrook would change if only he had a different head coach.

why are you so resistant to placing any responsibility on russell westbrook for some of these problems? i'm not proposing a black and white, polarizing argument here that it must be all westbrook or anything (even though that is what you are attempting to characterize my position as). i don't think you actually believe that westbrook is blameless for the current dynamics of the team and influence of the coaching staff over him.

And the coach cleary has nothing in line to show he tried becaues nobody on the team ever does

do you think billy donovan makes accurate statements to the media on what went wrong on the court (i.e. clippers post-game re: moving the ball)? if so, do you think donovan chooses not to emphasize or attempt at affect changes to the team regarding these topics?

[spearsy23]

i don't see why russell westbrook being difficult to coach is such an impossible thing for you to accept as a factor in all of this. do you honestly expect billy donovan to change him and his habits? is that a reasonable expectation for a coach in this situation?

Is Westbrook so difficult to coach that it makes it impossible to coach durant, George, schroder, Grant, Felton, waiters, christon, Melo, Cole, etc? Somehow Russ's perceived coachability issues, which are tough to buy considering every coach he's worked with has great things to say and his insane level of improvement since entering the league, carry over to an inability to coach anyone else? Even when Durant was considered the leader of the team?

[bondom34]

I mean given you even admit he has changed, but totaly speculate he won't further, that logic doesn't follow.

the changes have deepened the issues we have. that's why i don't expect him to change. not without incentive to do so. fred katz said that the thunder spent most of last season unsure of why they were losing. the picture he painted of the dynamics here are not flattering, and not consistent with the thought that westbrook would change if only he had a different head coach.

why are you so resistant to placing any responsibility on russell westbrook for some of these problems? i'm not proposing a black and white, polarizing argument here that it must be all westbrook or anything (even though that is what you are attempting to characterize my position as). i don't think you actually believe that westbrook is blameless for the current dynamics of the team and influence of the coaching staff over him.

And the coach cleary has nothing in line to show he tried becaues nobody on the team ever does

do you think billy donovan makes accurate statements to the media on what went wrong on the court (i.e. clippers post-game re: moving the ball)? if so, do you think donovan chooses not to emphasize or attempt at affect changes to the team regarding these topics?

The changes from his rookie year have deepened it...well thats interesting

And no, I don't think he's making accuarte statemtns, hes full of BS

[slick_watts]

i don't see why russell westbrook being difficult to coach is such an impossible thing for you to accept as a factor in all of this. do you honestly expect billy donovan to change him and his habits? is that a reasonable expectation for a coach in this situation?

Is Westbrook so difficult to coach that it makes it impossible to coach durant, George, schroder, Grant, Felton, waiters, christon, Melo, Cole, etc? Somehow Russ's perceived coachability issues, which are tough to buy considering every coach he's worked with has great things to say and his insane level of improvement since entering the league, carry over to an inability to coach anyone else? Even when Durant was considered the leader of the team?

teams have hierarchies. westbrook is the leader. if westbrook is not bought into what billy donovan wants to do, the rest of the team won't buy into what billy donovan wants to do.

the thunder long had the talent to outpace their sub-optimal deployments and strategies. did it really matter what message brooks was trying to get through all those years when the team was winning? not as much as it does now.

paul george said it himself a few weeks ago, with his claim that he's bad when he's in "a system" and that this kind of basketball appeals to him and makes the best use of his skills. do you agree? surely no fan does, and probably no outsider would. this is what the thunder players want.

[spearsy23]

do you think billy donovan makes accurate statements to the media on what went wrong on the court (i.e. clippers post-game re: moving the ball)? if so, do you think donovan chooses not to emphasize or attempt at affect changes to the team regarding these topics?

Identifying a problem and knowing how to correct it are separate things. We stopped moving the ball means nothing when we weren't moving the ball to begin with and you have no direction to move the ball to. Forget ball movement, we have zero player movement, where do you move the ball to when there are three noon shooters standing at the three point line and you're running a simple p&r? Your passing options become the roll man, or jerami Grant in the corner, then what?

[slick_watts]

The changes from his rookie year have deepened it...well thats interesting

post kd.

And no, I don't think he's making accuarte statemtns, hes full of BS

you don't agree with donovan's post game assessment that the ball didn't move enough?

[bondom34]

The changes from his rookie year have deepened it...well thats interesting

post kd.

And no, I don't think he's making accuarte statemtns, hes full of BS

you don't agree with donovan's post game assessment that the ball didn't move enough?

Post KD he still has.

And I agree but hes done nothing to alleviate it

[spearsy23]

i don't see why russell westbrook being difficult to coach is such an impossible thing for you to accept as a factor in all of this. do you honestly expect billy donovan to change him and his habits? is that a reasonable expectation for a coach in this situation?

Is Westbrook so difficult to coach that it makes it impossible to coach durant, George, schroder, Grant, Felton, waiters, christon, Melo, Cole, etc? Somehow Russ's perceived coachability issues, which are tough to buy considering every coach he's worked with has great things to say and his insane level of improvement since entering the league, carry over to an inability to coach anyone else? Even when Durant was considered the leader of the team?

teams have hierarchies. westbrook is the leader. if westbrook is not bought into what billy donovan wants to do, the rest of the team won't buy into what billy donovan wants to do.

the thunder long had the talent to outpace their sub-optimal deployments and strategies. did it really matter what message brooks was trying to get through all those years when the team was winning? not as much as it does now.

paul george said it himself a few weeks ago, with his claim that he's bad when he's in "a system" and that this kind of basketball appeals to him and makes the best use of his skills. do you agree? surely no fan does, and probably no outsider would. this is what the thunder players want.

You didn't answer the question. Is your contention that nobody else can be coached because Westbrook is difficult to?

[slick_watts]

The changes from his rookie year have deepened it...well thats interesting

post kd.

And no, I don't think he's making accuarte statemtns, hes full of BS

you don't agree with donovan's post game assessment that the ball didn't move enough?

Post KD he still has.

And I agree but hes done nothing to alleviate it

post kd, westbrook is a local folk hero.

so you agree that billy is accurate in this assessment. do you think he hasn't attempted to correct it? if not, why? do you think he has attempted? if so, why haven't there been results?

do you think it's a difficult concept to communicate to the team?

[bondom34]

post kd.



you don't agree with donovan's post game assessment that the ball didn't move enough?

Post KD he still has.

And I agree but hes done nothing to alleviate it

post kd, westbrook is a local folk hero.

so you agree that billy is accurate in this assessment. do you think he hasn't attempted to correct it? if not, why? do you think he has attempted? if so, why haven't there been results?

do you think it's a difficult concept to communicate to the team?

I don't care, he's still coachable.

And no, he hasn't. Because I don't think he has. He doesn't have it in him, he's Mike Brown or Ty Lue or Scott Brooks. A coach brought in because a GM wanted him no matter.

And the entire team has these issues, so yea, focusing on one guy is totallly inaccurate.

[slick_watts]

You didn't answer the question. Is your contention that nobody else can be coached because Westbrook is difficult to?

of course not. and there have definitely been concepts donovan has introduced to the team that have gone over.