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I think it's important we find someone. ANYONE who can at least come off the bench and hit 2-3 threes a game. As the summer is coming to an end is there any plausible players we can get?

That guy is already on the team.

I don't anticipate any additional player being added to the team. We have 16 players with a contract and a limit of 15 roster spots. We still have enough flexibility to add a player for the veterans minimum, if the right player became available, but it seems as if the direction has been set.

You seem to be looking for a Daquan Cook type, who by the way is still available, but Presti has moved beyond the specialist shooter. If you look closely he will notice that while many teams have attempted to add shooters, Presti has added more defenders. The only thing better than a shooter is the ability to defend against them.

sonictecture wrote:That guy is already on the team.

I don't anticipate any additional player being added to the team. We have 16 players with a contract and a limit of 15 roster spots. We still have enough flexibility to add a player for the veterans minimum, if the right player became available, but it seems as if the direction has been set.

You seem to be looking for a Daquan Cook type, who by the way is still available, but Presti has moved beyond the specialist shooter. If you look closely he will notice that while many teams have attempted to add shooters, Presti has added more defenders. The only thing better than a shooter is the ability to defend against them.

How do you feel about Perkins?

I think Perkins gives the team a physical and mental toughness that it needs through the grind of the regular season and especially in the playoffs. He has worked really hard to transform his physique and be in the best shape possible following his knee injury but lost quickness regardless and is not as productive or versatile as we sometimes need in match ups, but Brooks has good options beyond Perkins.

Perkins is still more helpful than hurtful to this team, but it is up to Brooks to use all of his players effectively. I think Presti is acutely aware of the limitations of Perkins and is working on long term solutions. We have seen this with the acquisition of the TPE, the drafting of Adams and the fact that there are currently 3 centers on the roster aside from Perkins.

There was a study that espn had linked on there recent articles on best current,promising, 5 years from now,showing that Perkins is one of the top 10 if not higher big man defenders over the past 2 years. It used opponent fg% against.

If you look closely you can see this in game situations as well. Track box scores of centers production before and after they play Perkins and you typically see Perkins limits the effectiveness of opposing centers. Now I'm not saying that a guy like Howard or Gasol won't be productive against Perkins, just that the technique and effort that Perkins employs limits that productivity and especially limits the ability of such players to completely dominate physically and control the game.

Thabeet did a respectable job defending last year as well, but has not learned how to defend without fouling yet.

I don't think defense is as important coming off a season with the 4th best D in the league. Also, I took a look at Perkins defensive RAPM and it 3.3 which is impressive. Do you not think KM's 16 PPG on 61% TS was that valuable? This loss isn't going to go unnoticed IMO. Unless Jeremy Lamb shows some incredible offensive ability this year along with Jackson I can't imagine the thunder playing the same level of offense.

HanDownManDown3 wrote:I don't think defense is as important coming off a season with the 4th best D in the league. Also, I took a look at Perkins defensive RAPM and it 3.3 which is impressive. Do you not think KM's 16 PPG on 61% TS was that valuable? This loss isn't going to go unnoticed IMO. Unless Jeremy Lamb shows some incredible offensive ability this year along with Jackson I can't imagine the thunder playing the same level of offense.

Martin may be missed, but I don't think by much. While we're looking at RAPM, lets check a few other numbers. First, Perk was a 3.3 on defense, but -4.7 on offense, so stil -1.4 total for 100 possessions. Martin on the other hand was 2.7 offense, but -2.37 on defense, so still barely positive. With any defense, the offensive production of whoever's replacing him should be offset.

HanDownManDown3 wrote:I think it's important we find someone. ANYONE who can at least come off the bench and hit ... 3 threes a game. As the summer is coming to an end is there any plausible players we can get?

Yeah - there are so many 9 pt a game bench scorers out there. You realize 3 threes a game last year would have made such a player the Thunder's #5 scorer, right (Thabo was the actual #5 at 7.6 - or 2.5 threes - a game)?

crgreen wrote:

HanDownManDown3 wrote:I think it's important we find someone. ANYONE who can at least come off the bench and hit ... 3 threes a game. As the summer is coming to an end is there any plausible players we can get?

Yeah - there are so many 9 pt a game bench scorers out there. You realize 3 threes a game last year would have made such a player the Thunder's #5 scorer, right (Thabo was the actual #5 at 7.6 - or 2.5 threes - a game)?

I would hope he can do more than shoot threes. We lose harden, then martin, now what? I guess Reggie JAckson and Lamb are going to have an impact. They have to.

OKC is definitely going to come down offensively unless the young guns develop very quickly.

Perkins is a stain on the roster. Likewise Thabeet.

Personally, I'd like to see the team shop Ibaka a little and see who bites. He's not as good a defender as his shot-blocking indicates and is entirely replaceable on offense. Westy and Durant provide the necessary 1-2 punch, but they do need some better spacing and that third guy on O.

We don't need to waste money for something Lamb n Jackson do perfectly fine

Joest2003 wrote:We don't need to waste money for something Lamb n Jackson do perfectly fine

How do you know Lamb is going to be anything at all?

tsherkin wrote:OKC is definitely going to come down offensively unless the young guns develop very quickly.

Perkins is a stain on the roster. Likewise Thabeet.

Personally, I'd like to see the team shop Ibaka a little and see who bites. He's not as good a defender as his shot-blocking indicates and is entirely replaceable on offense. Westy and Durant provide the necessary 1-2 punch, but they do need some better spacing and that third guy on O.

It's possible the offensive rating will dip at the beginning of the season, but it should get better throughout the year as young players get comfortable in new expanded roles.

This team can win in both the regular season and playoffs with Perkins and Thabeet at center. Brooks has other options if he chooses to use them.

Sustainability and development seem to be higher priorities to Presti than curiosity where Ibaka is concerned. There is no need to even look into trading him at this point.

sonictecture wrote:It's possible the offensive rating will dip at the beginning of the season, but it should get better throughout the year as young players get comfortable in new expanded roles.

Assuming that they do, that's true. I'm not worried about baseline offensive quality in the RS, I think Durant and Westbrook will be more than sufficient to drive a highly effective offense (even with their era-atypical and isolation-heavy style). What I'm worried about is playoff efficacy.

This team can win in both the regular season and playoffs with Perkins and Thabeet at center. Brooks has other options if he chooses to use them.

The second point is the concerning one, at least IMHO. Perkins shouldn't be played, he doesn't provide value. For the lulz:

2012: -1.4, -0.2, -1.6 RAPM; -4.6, +2.7, -1.9 xRAPM
2013: -2.4, +0.3, -2.0 RAPM; -4.7, +3.3, -1.4 xRAPM

He shot a career-low FG% in 2013, isn't a good FT shooter, has an ASTRONOMICAL turnover rate for such a low-usage player, rocked a 94 ORTG, a 47.9% TS and the worst ORB% of his career. Then, he was brutal in the playoffs.

Perk is a stain; even a mild upgrade would provide huge extra value to the team.

Sustainability and development seem to be higher priorities to Presti than curiosity where Ibaka is concerned. There is no need to even look into trading him at this point.

It's not a priority, but as a way to improve? It's an option out there; dangling a guy doesn't mean biting on what you find, right? They should always be looking for ways to improve, especially after bleeding talent in consecutive seasons as they have.

tsherkin wrote:Assuming that they do, that's true. I'm not worried about baseline offensive quality in the RS, I think Durant and Westbrook will be more than sufficient to drive a highly effective offense (even with their era-atypical and isolation-heavy style). What I'm worried about is playoff efficacy.

I'm projecting Jackson and Lamb to produce better in the playoffs than Martin did last year, and we'll see what happens if Durant and Westbrook stay healthy. Their impact is and continued improvement is being overlooked this offseason.

I'm projecting an overall playoff efficacy similar to Harden's last year for this team. We'll see what happens.

The second point is the concerning one, at least IMHO. Perkins shouldn't be played, he doesn't provide value. For the lulz:

2012: -1.4, -0.2, -1.6 RAPM; -4.6, +2.7, -1.9 xRAPM
2013: -2.4, +0.3, -2.0 RAPM; -4.7, +3.3, -1.4 xRAPM

He shot a career-low FG% in 2013, isn't a good FT shooter, has an ASTRONOMICAL turnover rate for such a low-usage player, rocked a 94 ORTG, a 47.9% TS and the worst ORB% of his career. Then, he was brutal in the playoffs.

I'm aware of these numbers. I stand by my original statement, the team can win with Perkins and Thabeet and Brooks as other options.

It's not a priority, but as a way to improve? It's an option out there; dangling a guy doesn't mean biting on what you find, right? They should always be looking for ways to improve, especially after bleeding talent in consecutive seasons as they have.

How has this team gotten to where they are now? Improvement from within by development. Ibaka improved last year and is still improving as a player. Shopping players in this age of media usually has a negative effect on team morale and chemistry. There is no need to go through the exercise, it's not part of how this organization operates. You obviously disagree and that is ok.

This team has a lot of talent left, despite the apparent bleeding. I think it's a mistake to jump to the conclusion that this team isn't a contender because they traded Harden and allowed Martin to leave via FA, but it seems to be a popular mistake.

sonictecture wrote:I'm projecting Jackson and Lamb to produce better in the playoffs than Martin did last year, and we'll see what happens if Durant and Westbrook stay healthy. Their impact is and continued improvement is being overlooked this offseason.

Bold. Martin was an average offensive player in the playoffs (considerably worse than his RS production, of course); Lamb was terrible, and while Jackson's ORTG was nice, he didn't really do anything special. It'd be fairly significant if either of them were notably superior to what Martin provided (even just his PS production) with a bump in responsibility. Both are young, so it's certainly possible, though.

I'm aware of these numbers. I stand by my original statement, the team can win with Perkins and Thabeet and Brooks as other options.

Right, but will Brooks play them? He's shown a notably bullish tendency to stick with Perkins for absolutely not explicable reason.

How has this team gotten to where they are now? Improvement from within by development. Ibaka improved last year and is still improving as a player. Shopping players in this age of media usually has a negative effect on team morale and chemistry. There is no need to go through the exercise, it's not part of how this organization operates. You obviously disagree and that is ok.

No, I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not saying sell him for cents on the dollar, I'm saying establish a value for your asset and see if it makes sense to move him or to keep him. Ibaka's a fine piece; there would be no reason to trade him unless the return would be very solid.

I think it's a mistake to jump to the conclusion that this team isn't a contender because they traded Harden and allowed Martin to leave via FA, but it seems to be a popular mistake.

Barring internal development of a significant sort, I think it's fair to say that they aren't a contender at this point in the off-season. I stress the second half of the sentence, though, because I doubt they're done and we have until the trade deadline to see what they might choose to do to arm up for another shot at a title. I'm keenly interested to see how they combat the problems they faced against the Grizzlies, too.

I don't think that they would have won even with a healthy Westbrook, because their problems stemmed from an inability to cope with a mix of interior D and interior offense that Memphis was trotting out there. 37 ppg from Gasol and Z-Bo combined really hurt and Westbrook wouldn't have done much to disrupt that.

Yeah, OKC would have done better on offense, and probably quite a bit better, but butting up against that kind of defense, they really weren't going to dominate offensively and were already sabotaged by Perkins and the underperformance of Martin (although Westy would likely have helped with the latter, his dribble penetration was missed sorely).

We'll see; I'm hopeful OKC returns to contention with a savvy move, because I like the OKC/Heat games a lot, personally.

tsherkin wrote:Bold. Martin was an average offensive player in the playoffs (considerably worse than his RS production, of course); Lamb was terrible, and while Jackson's ORTG was nice, he didn't really do anything special. It'd be fairly significant if either of them were notably superior to what Martin provided (even just his PS production) with a bump in responsibility. Both are young, so it's certainly possible, though.

Is it really such a bold projection? Martin didn't exactly set a high bar for production and his role continued to shrink throughout the RS and PS. Neither Jackson or Lamb have to singularly outproduce Martin they can do it in a combined effort. Unlike Martin, Jackson can get wherever he wants on the court and is much better at finishing at the rim. He's big and strong enough to guard most sg's and projects as a better defender. I envision Lamb or Liggins filling in the cracks, specifically shooting, spreading the floor.

Right, but will Brooks play them? He's shown a notably bullish tendency to stick with Perkins for absolutely not explicable reason.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. Perkins is still a solid positional defender and second Perkins only typically plays about 23-25 mpg. Brooks doesn't get near enough credit for adjustments he does make.

No, I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not saying sell him for cents on the dollar, I'm saying establish a value for your asset and see if it makes sense to move him or to keep him. Ibaka's a fine piece; there would be no reason to trade him unless the return would be very solid.

It's unnecessary, Presti know Ibaka's market value enough to make a determination of what he could potentially get in return. No need to even quietly shop him.

Barring internal development of a significant sort, I think it's fair to say that they aren't a contender at this point in the off-season. I stress the second half of the sentence, though, because I doubt they're done and we have until the trade deadline to see what they might choose to do to arm up for another shot at a title. I'm keenly interested to see how they combat the problems they faced against the Grizzlies, too.

This team has not only the most quality talent under the age of 25, but probably the most individuals with talent under the age of 25. There is always significant internal development happening.

Presti may choose to add another piece if things tread in a negative way, he did pay cash to get a TPE from the Martin trade and has plenty of young cheap assets, but I don't think it's likely. This team is built to match up with anyone as is. The loss of Westbrook made a huge difference in every facet of how they play.

Time will tell if I'm overly optimistic or correctly reading the signs.

sonictecture wrote:Is it really such a bold projection? Martin didn't exactly set a high bar for production and his role continued to shrink throughout the RS and PS. Neither Jackson or Lamb have to singularly outproduce Martin they can do it in a combined effort. Unlike Martin, Jackson can get wherever he wants on the court and is much better at finishing at the rim. He's big and strong enough to guard most sg's and projects as a better defender. I envision Lamb or Liggins filling in the cracks, specifically shooting, spreading the floor.

I think that expecting a lot of guys that young without a lot of proven efficacy isn't a reliable projection. I get the optimism, and this is your board, so I'm not going to belabor the point much but it's risking a lot all on red, IMHO.

This is a bit of an exaggeration. Perkins is still a solid positional defender and second Perkins only typically plays about 23-25 mpg. Brooks doesn't get near enough credit for adjustments he does make. '

He's a solid post defender; he's a sucking void on offense to an extent that outdoes his defensive contributions, though, and Brooks doesn't get enough criticism for sticking senselessly with Perkins, who could be capably replaced with Kwame Brown...

It's unnecessary, Presti know Ibaka's market value enough to make a determination of what he could potentially get in return. No need to even quietly shop him.

I disagree, although I see your thought process. I'm coming from the POV that his market value is more fluid than fixed.

This team has not only the most quality talent under the age of 25, but probably the most individuals with talent under the age of 25. There is always significant internal development happening.

Eh.... There's always projected improvement, but the core of the team is kind of fixed in place. Jackson can't draw fouls to save his life and won't shoot 80% at the rim with increased role responsibility and volume. He also can't hit threes to save his life either, so I'm not sure where the projected improvement would come from, he's fairly unimpressive. He didn't stun at BosCo and he didn't stun in Tulsa, I'm not actually very high on him. Lamb was brutal, but he's even younger than Jackson and his sample was small enough that it's hard to take anything seriously just yet.

I think that, given their age, they obviously have a chance to show something but I don't think either of them are prepared to replace what Harden was giving them that enabled them as contenders, or even what Martin was capable of doing in the RS... nor do I think they'll much replace what Martin gave even in the PS.

And, with due respect to this being the OKC board, I will leave my point on that topic at that. They're young, they have physical tools, they have potential. It could happen. This is one of those "I'd love to be wrong" things, because as I said, I enjoy OKC's success.

The loss of Westbrook made a huge difference in every facet of how they play.

This is certainly true.

Just one quick point, and what I actually think is happening. This team got good too fast. The FO wasn't planning for it, and was hoping to wait another season or so before hitting the tax. I think they'll wait another year, then maybe next season go over, so as to avoid repeater status for a year. I think Russ/KD/Ibaka improved so quickly, it moved up the timeline and at this point it wasn't planned to pay as much to FAs. Don't know, just my opinion, but I think they wait it out, hope the young guys improve, see what's in house, and next year maybe sign some guys and make a bigger push. Perk can be dealt as an expiring, and more money can be in the books as well w/o his contract potentially there.