James Harden

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theokie
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James Harden 

Post#1 » by theokie » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:28 pm

I figured I'd just start a new thread and carry over the conversation from the other thread., because were basically way off topic with Andre Roberson right now. If you need a refresher viewtopic.php?f=334&t=1258987&start=60

Podirk wrote:Very interesting.....

Some how I made a statement in a question. (I 100% think Harden wanted to be the man, even if he got the 4/60 he would have been 3rd fiddle, there is only so much ball to go around). I was more referring to the Millers, Wrights, etc that everyone freaked out about this summer because Thunder have no bench (hindsight but wow I like the Thunder bench). Going into the tax one year early (if you looked at my posting referring to the repeater) can really cost you come KD and RW contract time. So a few million into the tax this season, could essentially cost you resigning one of KD or RW.

per cbafaq.com Going 12 mill into the tax this season would cost 21 mill and some change, with the repeater come KD and RW contract time that 21 mill goes to 35 mill range. So that extra 12 mill this year (eating into the 30 mill profit) and the 21 mill tax (finishing off that profit) is why Presti and Co operate the way they do.



It's an interesting concept for fans to imply that owners are cheap for not going into the tax, when said fans want them too (without the knowledge of the teams short and long term goals, let alone the CBA). It's also interesting that said fans don't put any blame on the players.

A championship has to be an organizational focus. Owners, coaches, players.
If a player isn't expected to take less then they have earned (seems logical to me), why is it ridiculed that ownership should take less then they have earned (again, seems logical to me)?


I agree that it would've served no point to go over the tax to sign Wright. Mike Miller wouldnt have put us over the tax, because he was amnestied and signed for the minimum. Also, going over the tax line to sign a role player and going over the tax line to sign an all-star and arguably the best SG in the game as he's entering his prime is completely different.


I do realize the strict tax implications, I've looked at the CBA, I understand the penalties. If OKC had extended Harden to the max, OKC would be paying the tax this year (about 10 million over the cap). We could have paid the tax for a year or two, and THEN we could've traded someone if the cap concerns were too extreme. Keep this in mind though, we would've had basically four guys under contract long term making roughly 60 million annually. Perkins could've been amnestied. Vets like Thabo, Collison and whoever else would have been cheap contracts, and players on rookie deals could fill out the roster. (amnesty Perkins for christ sake) Its not like the salary ever would have reached 100 million. I get that the repeater tax is an issue, but I think we had 2-3 years before anyone would have even come close to losing money. If it became a huge issue then, we could've dumped salary.

I don't expect the owners to lose money when they purchase a franchise. i don't expect them to pay 90 million in tax penalties. I don't think keeping Harden around for 2-3 more years would've ever done that to them.

Winning a championship should be the most important thing in my opinion. Money is secondary, and when you're already a billionaire, and already making money off of owning a team, you shouldn't blow it up just because it cuts into your profit margin.


I know OKC is doing OK right now, but can anyone honestly say that we are better off today than we would've been with Harden instead of Lamb and Adams?
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Re: James Harden 

Post#2 » by Podirk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Miller comments make sense, he just chose Memphis over OKC. I'm sure playing time and comfort with the area played in.

Per the 3rd paragraph, I don't disagree with anything said here...and it might not have been a bad option but let's look at it.

2013/14 would have been the first year of tax (per your comments) at 10 mill over
10 mill+ salary + 16 mill in tax = 26 mill more money going out.
I believe with yearly increases in salary that number would stay the same even with a higher tax line in 14/15. A few years of not making money, but competing for championships.
Say perk is amnestied
Thunder still pay his contract - what another team picks him up for..so lets say 7 mill next year. Then the Thunder still need a starting C unless one thinks Thabeet can handle it. So there's around 5 mill in MLE added too.
7 mill in Perk contract payment
8 mill in over tax salary (3 left over from the original 10 tax salary - 7 perk amnesty + 5 mill in MLE)
tax price on 8 mill over is about ~13 mill
TOTAL of 7 + 8 + 13 = 28 mill in tax, over salary, and amnesty cost
That's more then letting Perk stay and keeping the unity of the Finals group.

Amnesty doesn't save the team, Thunder are not making money and have been in the tax for 3 of the last 4 years, it's time to sign Durant and later Westbrook.....YIKES....

Current reality:
Thunder are not in the tax but very close. Next season will be the first tax season. Even with the higher tax line, annual contract raises eat a lil of that (Thabo plays in here but that's another issue). Thunder have a 6.5 TPE from Martine (from the Harden trade) that can be used to bring in an above MLE athlete without trade (NOT POSSIBLE without Harden trade).

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Re: James Harden 

Post#3 » by Styrian » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:19 pm

Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#4 » by theokie » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:33 pm

Styrian wrote:Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.


when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?
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Re: James Harden 

Post#5 » by bondom34 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:43 pm

theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.


when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?

Just as an fyi, and not to intervene in the thread, as I'm not really in the conversation, but an interesting stat still. By RAPM from last year, Houston's about to possibly deal Asik, who grades out about the same in RAPM (just flip offense and defense). :lol:
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Re: James Harden 

Post#6 » by Podirk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:12 pm

bondom34 wrote:
theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.


when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?

Just as an fyi, and not to intervene in the thread, as I'm not really in the conversation, but an interesting stat still. By RAPM from last year, Houston's about to possibly deal Asik, who grades out about the same in RAPM (just flip offense and defense). :lol:


Interesting stat indeed.

I think to answer that Okie, you would have to look at a team that has had 3 top 5 players on it (Understanding that the player dealt was not going to be top 5 with the other 2 on said team).
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Re: James Harden 

Post#7 » by Podirk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:17 pm

"no more questions for you bro.......troll"
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Re: James Harden 

Post#8 » by Styrian » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:19 pm

theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.


when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?


Lakers dumped Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Elden Campbell so they could afford Kobe and Shaq.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#9 » by comingbacktousa » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:37 pm

theokie wrote:I know OKC is doing OK right now, but can anyone honestly say that we are better off today than we would've been with Harden instead of Lamb and Adams?


How about doing the opposite? Can you honestly say that you know for sure OKC would be better now with Harden instead? Remember Harden needs the ball to be effective on offense, otherwise he just stands around, so that negates a lot of what Jackson is bringing to the team. Not to mention he plays terrible defense and is turnover prone. Also consider that OKC as a team was better by pretty much every metric last year than the year before and lineups with Westbrook-Martin-Durant-Ibaka were better than with Harden in Martin place.

So all and all can you say OKC would clearly without a doubt be better off having spent the additional 10 million(not including tax) for Harden then they are spending for Lamb and Adams?

If you look at the names it doesn't sound possible but look at the results.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#10 » by Podirk » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:24 pm

theokie wrote:I know OKC is doing OK right now, but can anyone honestly say that we are better off today than we would've been with Harden instead of Lamb and Adams?


It also involved a lot more then Harden, Lamb, and Adams.

Getting rid of Lazar, Cook, and Cole is always a huge oversight when looking at the trade. Thunder also received the pick that became Abrines, Kevin Martin (his 6.5 mill TPE still looms), and a future Dallas first. Those 3 assets and ridding the 3 end of the bench players was huge financially and roster wise.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#11 » by theokie » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:45 am

Styrian wrote:
theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:Discussion about money is irrelevant, because the point of CBA is to spread talent around the league. That doesn't mean you can't keep players, but you have to make decisions between them and Thunder chose Westbrook/Ibaka over Harden. Not the first time that has happened, teams with a lot of talented players dumped good players in the past before.


when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?


Lakers dumped Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Elden Campbell so they could afford Kobe and Shaq.


Like I said, when has a contender ever dumped a player as good as James Harden

comingbacktousa wrote:
theokie wrote:I know OKC is doing OK right now, but can anyone honestly say that we are better off today than we would've been with Harden instead of Lamb and Adams?


How about doing the opposite? Can you honestly say that you know for sure OKC would be better now with Harden instead? .


Yes.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#12 » by Balkman32 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:29 am

No ones ideal situation was to deal Harden. But, two years ago Harden won the 6th man award scoring 16 PTs off the bench. Thunder now have 2 guys (Jackson and Lamb) with a combined 20 per game. These two have replaced Harden offense in the 2nd unit. If the Thunder keep the Durant, Westbrook, and Ibaka core just about every team in the league will receive a once lottery pick that the thunder had to deal for multiple picks. There will be many more Harden traded made by OKC. The key is for Sammy to keep up his high percentage of picking players who can provide valuable mins on a great team. Only bust was Aldrich.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#13 » by comingbacktousa » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:31 am

Westbrook pretty much answered this in his interview with espn that they showed in the game last night....what they have is better than ONE guy.

If someone wants to ignore the results, go ahead.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#14 » by Balkman32 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:45 pm

If I am a rebuilding team and I have the 3rd overall pick I would send it to the Thunder for Lamb, Jackson, n' PJ3. I would even give up more. But, you know if you get young Thunder players they were brought up to be successful in this league.

Both the Celtics and Rockets are enjoying old Thunder players!
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Re: James Harden 

Post#15 » by ThunderUp1234 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Ugh, beating a dead horse again.

They offered Harden, 2-3 million less in AAV than he signed for.

And again, Harden's value isnt what it is in OKC because Russ and KD take a good chunk of the shots/offense.

It was a situation that may not happen again, very rare, but they had no choice.

Do you keep Harden for 1 more year, let him walk for a worse offer?

To say they were cheap when if Harden accepts, they'd be in the tax every year.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#16 » by Thunderhead » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:33 pm




I guess no one wants to comment on this.

Thunder are better now, than they were with Harden.

And Thunder are far better financially, than they would've been with Harden. They're not even tax payers, have a bunch of young assets, and still have flexibilty to make a trade if they need to do so.

The only thing standing between all of the Harden trade critics being proven absolutely wrong, is Russ's injury in the playoffs last year. We did not get to see that team reach the Finals , or maybe even win it all.

Surprise surprise .............. Presti knows more than media and message board experts , as if that is breaking news.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#17 » by spearsy23 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:36 pm

I've been saying it for a long time, nobody necessarily lost that trade. We got some excellent pieces to compliment our main core and houston got their star. Morey and Presti are both phenomenal GM's and it looks like it's working out exactly the way each one had hoped. Harden would never be a top ten player while he was here and pretending we gave up his 25 ppg is somewhat foolish. Without Russ last year we had no shot at the finals anyway because, no matter what the player rankings might say, Russ impacts the game for us in a way nobody else in the league can.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#18 » by spearsy23 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:59 pm

theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:
theokie wrote:
when has contender ever dumped a player as good as Harden?


Lakers dumped Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Elden Campbell so they could afford Kobe and Shaq.


Like I said, when has a contender ever dumped a player as good as James Harden


Eddie jones was a 20/5/4 player with 3 steals and almost a block per game the next year. Factoring Defense and turnovers, Jones was every bit the player Harden is.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#19 » by theokie » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:18 am

spearsy23 wrote:
theokie wrote:
Styrian wrote:
Lakers dumped Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel and Elden Campbell so they could afford Kobe and Shaq.


Like I said, when has a contender ever dumped a player as good as James Harden


Eddie jones was a 20/5/4 player with 3 steals and almost a block per game the next year. Factoring Defense and turnovers, Jones was every bit the player Harden is.


This is an absoute joke. I'm assuming you weren't alive when Eddie Jones played then. He had those number in 1 season, and did it on poor shooting. C'mon, you're better than that. Don't troll.
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Re: James Harden 

Post#20 » by spearsy23 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:55 am

theokie wrote:
This is an absoute joke. I'm assuming you weren't alive when Eddie Jones played then. He had those number in 1 season, and did it on poor shooting. C'mon, you're better than that. Don't troll.

You asked when has a player as good as harden ever been dumped, not 'when has a player who would be as good as harden down the road, ever got dumped.' Their first years after being dumped Harden and Jones were the same caliber of players. Btw Jones shot 43 and 38 per cents and Harden shot 44 and 38.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.

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