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Still tweaking as the preseason goes along and i see more from these younger players and new additions and how they can possibly fit teams but....

1. Heat - IMO people really ignore the value of Deng. They also seem to forget that Granger has been relatively healthy since his injury and could potentially go back to form. Which he really didnt have a chance to do with the Pacers or Clippers, but he will here. Chalmers steps it up, i think he starts putting up 15/8 or so. I think Wade will take off less then 20 games but the team will be fine. Bosh will obviously go back to bits of Craptors.

2. Cavs - They wont contend this first year, they might make the ECFs and maybe even the finals depending on who is healthy in the easy-east. But theyre not winning a title with LBJ being the only guy with any kind of experience (and part time Varejao).

IMO trading Wiggins was a huge mistake. Personally i would have kept him for his defensive abilities. Its a guard dominated league and you need someone to stay in front of CP3, Westbrook, Wall, Curry, etc. Irving cant do this and Lebron cant do it full time, especially when they dont have forward/low post defense.
If they insisted on trading for a PF, it hink they could have waited it out and gotten Love for TT, Waiters, AB and a first. OR, taken a shot at Al Horford who might also be on the table. Point is, i think they rushed this trade.

3. Bulls (if healthy) - I dont want to spend to much time on these guys. Healthy = Eastern contenders. Unhealthy = out of play offs.

4. Hornets - +Stephenson. Nuff said. If you dont understand the impact this kid has then you should not be talking basketball.

5. Detroit - Adding Stan to that roster in the East = a top 6 seed, even in the first year. These guys can potentially make the finals within the next year or so with Stan there. Jennings reminds me a lot of Nelson (except with a better skill set then Nelson) and Drummond could become MIP as a result of Stans new scheme.

6. Wizards - IMO Beal and Wall are the best guard duo in the league (outside of Spurs) but PP cannot do what Ariza did and i dont trust Nene's health or his consistency. He always seems to be a great piece but at the same time, often a non-factor.

7. Pacers - Defense wins, especially in the east. A lot of people have these guys out of the play offs, i dont know why. Hibbert, another MIP candidate, will probably return to low post form. Stuckey will give them extra production. West will step it up. They wont be contending, but with the defense and an ability to hit 90 every night theyre fine. Although they do have a chance to tank and solidify this team for years. ..... But who knows, maybe they will let that guy go too.

8. Knicks or Nets - Im not sold on this Nets team, especially with a new coach (even if it is LH, its going to take at least a season to instill his system on them). DWill has proven to be a product of Jerry Sloan, they have next to zero defense, JJ is getting older but still JJ and their depth is.... not that good. I dont know why they got rid of Tayshaun Taylor, the team seemed to react better to him then they did DWill, but whatever.
The Knicks have defensive issues but if they do run the triangle and they are successful, im wrong at putting them at 8, it would probably be 5 or 6. Another one of those "if" factors is Hardaway jr. If he takes that second year leap with this offense, he could easily become MIP and a year away from potential all-star consideration.
I also see them being able to move pieces fairly early on. Amare, Shump, JR maybe.

bondom34 wrote:I have a hard time seeing the Heat at 1, though I think a lot of people have overlooked them. For me the east is:

1. Cavs
2. Bulls
3. Raps
4. Heat
5. Hawks
6. Hornets (3-7 are tight)
7. Wizards (I feel like age may get to them, outside of Wall/Beal/Porter they will rely on a lot of older guys)
8. Pacers

Bravenewworld wrote:You really have Detroit out of it?

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:You really have Detroit out of it?

Yeah, I like SVG, but Smith has still been bad preseason, they have no legit starting PG, and I can't see any others except maybe Indy dropping out. The Hawks were the 3 seed last year til they lost every capable center on their roster for 1-2 months and plummeted. At best I see them as a borderline 8th seed.[[

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:You really have Detroit out of it?

Yeah, I like SVG, but Smith has still been bad preseason, they have no legit starting PG, and I can't see any others except maybe Indy dropping out. The Hawks were the 3 seed last year til they lost every capable center on their roster for 1-2 months and plummeted. At best I see them as a borderline 8th seed.[[

Jennings is a legit PG.

34mpg,15.5pts, 7.6ast, 3.1reb, 1.3stl 34%3pt, 40%2pt, 2.7topg

Hes 25 years old and a near replica of Nelson statistically and style. All he has to do is simply run Van Gundy's offense.

Pre-season does not matter at all. The only value pre-season has is to evaluate individual talent to see how they fit with current roster players and what their potential is working with that offense and defense. There is near zero focus on players who where on the team last season.

The Hawks are shopping Al Horford. Which means they are probably going to be rebuilding.... again.
But either way, they were one of those teams (like the Raptors) that accidently made the play-offs last season. The only reason they did is because 10 teams took the year off. It was not that they are secretly good or anything, there are just far too many missing pieces on that team.
But we can also tell they have decided to rebuild with the Thabo signing (which is a filler contract) and no other valuable off season moves made.

Orlando could be a 10 seed. They could be a very interesting team to watch and an up and comer to pay attention to. The Celtics might also make a leap, Smart was a fantastic pick up for them and a guy who seems like a natural leader. I think these two teams will post 32 wins or so and realistically be right out of the 8 spot.

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:
Yeah, I like SVG, but Smith has still been bad preseason, they have no legit starting PG, and I can't see any others except maybe Indy dropping out. The Hawks were the 3 seed last year til they lost every capable center on their roster for 1-2 months and plummeted. At best I see them as a borderline 8th seed.[[

Jennings is a legit PG.

34mpg,15.5pts, 7.6ast, 3.1reb, 1.3stl 34%3pt, 40%2pt, 2.7topg

Hes 25 years old and a near replica of Nelson statistically and style. All he has to do is simply run Van Gundy's offense.

Pre-season does not matter at all. The only value pre-season has is to evaluate individual talent to see how they fit with current roster players and what their potential is working with that offense and defense. There is near zero focus on players who where on the team last season.

The Hawks are shopping Al Horford. Which means they are probably going to be rebuilding.... again.
But either way, they were one of those teams (like the Raptors) that accidently made the play-offs last season. The only reason they did is because 10 teams took the year off. It was not that they are secretly good or anything, there are just far too many missing pieces on that team.
But we can also tell they have decided to rebuild with the Thabo signing (which is a filler contract) and no other valuable off season moves made.

Orlando could be a 10 seed. They could be a very interesting team to watch and an up and comer to pay attention to. The Celtics might also make a leap, Smart was a fantastic pick up for them and a guy who seems like a natural leader. I think these two teams will post 32 wins or so and realistically be right out of the 8 spot.

Jennings was by a lot of measures the worst PG in the league last year. He's talented, but not very good. I don't see many ways that he's a positive for them at all.

Bravenewworld wrote:There is no legitimate measure that shows Jennings as the worst PG in the league. The only reason people talk about him is because those people probably bought into a fake hype, thought he was the next CP3 and were then disappointed because of their own nonsensical expectations.

But statistically there is nothing to suggest this.
His numbers are fine, his advanced stats are fine (except his defense needs work), efficiency is fine, he is even in the top 25 of guards finishing at the rim. He simply has no major experience and has been poorly coached in America.

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:There is no legitimate measure that shows Jennings as the worst PG in the league. The only reason people talk about him is because those people probably bought into a fake hype, thought he was the next CP3 and were then disappointed because of their own nonsensical expectations.

But statistically there is nothing to suggest this.
His numbers are fine, his advanced stats are fine (except his defense needs work), efficiency is fine, he is even in the top 25 of guards finishing at the rim. He simply has no major experience and has been poorly coached in America.

RPM has him dead last in the league, RAPM similar. He had a .486 TS percentage last year and took 14 shots a game.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/1

bondom34 wrote:Also, I dare ya to ask the Pistons board their thoughts on Jennings!

Bravenewworld wrote:You really have Detroit out of it?

For the start of the season the line up and rotation will be:
PG- Brandon Jennings - Jodie Meeks
SG- Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - Jodie Meeks
SF- Kyle Singler - Caron Butler - Josh Smith
PF- Greg Monroe - Josh Smith
C- Andre Drummond - Aaron Gray

Kizz Fastfists wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:You really have Detroit out of it?

For the start of the season the line up and rotation will be:
PG- Brandon Jennings - Jodie Meeks
SG- Kentavious Caldwell-Pope - Jodie Meeks
SF- Kyle Singler - Caron Butler - Josh Smith
PF- Greg Monroe - Josh Smith
C- Andre Drummond - Aaron Gray

Meeks it out until January with a fractured back. They are one of the worst shooting teams in the NBA. Last year they were 20th in FG%, 29th in 3pt% and last in FT%.

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:There is no legitimate measure that shows Jennings as the worst PG in the league. The only reason people talk about him is because those people probably bought into a fake hype, thought he was the next CP3 and were then disappointed because of their own nonsensical expectations.

But statistically there is nothing to suggest this.
His numbers are fine, his advanced stats are fine (except his defense needs work), efficiency is fine, he is even in the top 25 of guards finishing at the rim. He simply has no major experience and has been poorly coached in America.

RPM has him dead last in the league, RAPM similar. He had a .486 TS percentage last year and took 14 shots a game.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/1

Ya but you can always find one or two stats to say whatever you want them to, especially with very defined yet vague stats like RPM. Fact of the matter is that no matter what that says we have far more statistics showing us that he is a good PG.

According to that list D.J. Augustin is 80th. J.J. Barea 69. MCW 72. Darren Collison 41, possibly a top 5 for back up PGs.
Come on. These are horrible rankings that dont actually say anything.

bondom34 wrote:Also, I dare ya to ask the Pistons board their thoughts on Jennings!

Im sure they hate him.
Bulls fans hate Boozer despite the fact that he almost single handedly took them to the play offs 2 years in a row, one year reaching the second round.
Some fans are stupid and dont understand play values in basketball.

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:
RPM has him dead last in the league, RAPM similar. He had a .486 TS percentage last year and took 14 shots a game.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_ ... position/1

Ya but you can always find one or two stats to say whatever you want them to, especially with very defined yet vague stats like RPM. Fact of the matter is that no matter what that says we have far more statistics showing us that he is a good PG.

According to that list D.J. Augustin is 80th. J.J. Barea 69. MCW 72. Darren Collison 41, possibly a top 5 for back up PGs.
Come on. These are horrible rankings that dont actually say anything.

bondom34 wrote:Also, I dare ya to ask the Pistons board their thoughts on Jennings!

Im sure they hate him.
Bulls fans hate Boozer despite the fact that he almost single handedly took them to the play offs 2 years in a row, one year reaching the second round.
Some fans are stupid and dont understand play values in basketball.

Because Boozer's not that great either? If you want to argue Jennings is a good player, I got nothing I can tell you.

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:
Ya but you can always find one or two stats to say whatever you want them to, especially with very defined yet vague stats like RPM. Fact of the matter is that no matter what that says we have far more statistics showing us that he is a good PG.

According to that list D.J. Augustin is 80th. J.J. Barea 69. MCW 72. Darren Collison 41, possibly a top 5 for back up PGs.
Come on. These are horrible rankings that dont actually say anything.



Im sure they hate him.
Bulls fans hate Boozer despite the fact that he almost single handedly took them to the play offs 2 years in a row, one year reaching the second round.
Some fans are stupid and dont understand play values in basketball.

Because Boozer's not that great either? If you want to argue Jennings is a good player, I got nothing I can tell you.

Well sure, you can bring up statistical issues iwth Boozer, and again, the things he contributes to the team cant be measured with statistics. That roster has completely changed over the past two years (due to trades and mostly injuries) yet him being the only constant, took them to the play offs over and over. And its not surprising even the mans history, experience and his play.
Again, there is nothing to contradict the fact that if you took that guy off the roster that Bulls team would have been top 7 lottery. Not play off bound.

How about an example that hits closer to home?
Fisher.
Statistically we cant really measure what he did. But fact of the matter is, those immeasurable intangibles (that account for about 50% of the game) made him highly valuable and definitely increased and improved how this team ran.

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:

bondom34 wrote:Because Boozer's not that great either? If you want to argue Jennings is a good player, I got nothing I can tell you.

Well sure, you can bring up statistical issues iwth Boozer, and again, the things he contributes to the team cant be measured with statistics. That roster has completely changed over the past two years (due to trades and mostly injuries) yet him being the only constant, took them to the play offs over and over. And its not surprising even the mans history, experience and his play.
Again, there is nothing to contradict the fact that if you took that guy off the roster that Bulls team would have been top 7 lottery. Not play off bound.

How about an example that hits closer to home?
Fisher.
Statistically we cant really measure what he did. But fact of the matter is, those immeasurable intangibles (that account for about 50% of the game) made him highly valuable and definitely increased and improved how this team ran.

Boozer I at least see as a semi-useful, but previously way overpaid guy. Jennings is still not. And has no intangibles.

Bravenewworld wrote:
The point is you can nit pick stats to death to show whatever you want. I can nit pick stats to show Marco Jeric was as good as MJ.
And you cant ignore his actual statistics in exchange for some obscure half stat that is clearly flawed if you took a look at the list.

Im not saying Jennings is a great PG, im saying he basically a blank slate who is currently above average by every measurable stat, except that petty RPM stat that again, is so obviously flawed and has a basic skill set very similar to Nelson or Felton.
You give this guy a good coach, there is no reason why he is not going to shine and do exactly what Nelson did. Im willing to bet that if we went a few years back on that list, Nelson was probably also ranked pretty low on that list.

bondom34 wrote:

Bravenewworld wrote:
The point is you can nit pick stats to death to show whatever you want. I can nit pick stats to show Marco Jeric was as good as MJ.
And you cant ignore his actual statistics in exchange for some obscure half stat that is clearly flawed if you took a look at the list.

Im not saying Jennings is a great PG, im saying he basically a blank slate who is currently above average by every measurable stat, except that petty RPM stat that again, is so obviously flawed and has a basic skill set very similar to Nelson or Felton.
You give this guy a good coach, there is no reason why he is not going to shine and do exactly what Nelson did. Im willing to bet that if we went a few years back on that list, Nelson was probably also ranked pretty low on that list.

I'm not nitpicking. Jennings is flat out awful. He was traded for Brandon Knight, who's possibly a better player, and RPM is actually a pretty good stat. Please, show me how Marco Jeric is better than MJ in on court impact, which is what RPM actually measures. Its a regression of the on/off numbers for Jennings, who's team was bad but still vastly better when he wasn't playing. RPM is not flawed in what it tries to do, which is measure on court impact. Jennings is probably the worst starting PG in the league.