RealGM

Billy Donovan was brought and fans were told it would be more spacing and passing. The Thunder don't really show much difference in offense since last year they may have maybe even took a step back. Is this coaching or is that on Russ and KD?

The talent on this team is enough to match any team. I get the lost was bad but so many times the team plays to lazy as a group then have to fight back. If they didn't have talent they woul never fight back or win those games. Players have changed a lot but offensive sets haven't.

Maybe I'm just wishful thinking but if the team gets a system that Billy has them in for the rest of the year this team is capable of beating anybody

Thunder's problems are mostly defensively. The offense is still second best in the league. And it's too late to introduce new system for this season.

Bergmaniac wrote:Thunder's problems are mostly defensively. The offense is still second best in the league. And it's too late to introduce new system for this season.

Yes and no, the real problem is that the bench still can't consistently play either, and with Dion the starters are just above average.

Offensively The bench really lacks any identity whatsoever, it's like Donovan doesn't trust Cam enough to spam the Kanter P&R so we end up throwing the ball around the perimeter until Singler/Morrow throw it away, Dion iso's into a step-back while yelling and-one (seriously, he is doing it on jumpers now), Collison gets blocked at the rim, or Cam gets a step on his defender and misses a pull up (it seems to me his floater has been off lately and he hasn't shown the ability to finish without it). On top of that KD has spent long stretches of games missing easy shots and turning the ball over before suddenly going god mode to end the game, and Serge is still having one great game then two clunkers. Without Robes the whole team has looked disjointed except Russ and Steven.

hollasin wrote:Billy Donovan was brought and fans were told it would be more spacing and passing. The Thunder don't really show much difference in offense since last year they may have maybe even took a step back. Is this coaching or is that on Russ and KD?

The talent on this team is enough to match any team. I get the lost was bad but so many times the team plays to lazy as a group then have to fight back. If they didn't have talent they woul never fight back or win those games. Players have changed a lot but offensive sets haven't.

Maybe I'm just wishful thinking but if the team gets a system that Billy has them in for the rest of the year this team is capable of beating anybody

We dont have more talent than Golden State and the Spurs.

After KD, Russ, Ibaka, and Adams are roster is crap. Golden State and Spurs have 9-10 high quality players.

I'm sorry but you are only as good as your weakest link. Our regular starting 5 has a higher plus/minus than Spurs/Warriors. But once we go to our bench our team sucks.

Our bench of Waiters/Collison/Morrow/Singler has to beat Iggy/Livingston/Ezeli/Barbosa? No way.

Bergmaniac wrote:Thunder's problems are mostly defensively. The offense is still second best in the league. And it's too late to introduce new system for this season.

Not entirely true. Bad offense (when the bench unit is in) leads to bad defense. Bad offense leads to turnover or missed shots. Those turn into easy fast break points or early offense buckets.

kraytinprime wrote:

hollasin wrote:Billy Donovan was brought and fans were told it would be more spacing and passing. The Thunder don't really show much difference in offense since last year they may have maybe even took a step back. Is this coaching or is that on Russ and KD?

The talent on this team is enough to match any team. I get the lost was bad but so many times the team plays to lazy as a group then have to fight back. If they didn't have talent they woul never fight back or win those games. Players have changed a lot but offensive sets haven't.

Maybe I'm just wishful thinking but if the team gets a system that Billy has them in for the rest of the year this team is capable of beating anybody

We dont have more talent than Golden State and the Spurs.

After KD, Russ, Ibaka, and Adams are roster is crap. Golden State and Spurs have 9-10 high quality players.

I'm sorry but you are only as good as your weakest link. Our regular starting 5 has a higher plus/minus than Spurs/Warriors. But once we go to our bench our team sucks.

Our bench of Waiters/Collison/Morrow/Singler has to beat Iggy/Livingston/Ezeli/Barbosa? No way.

Thunder have a ton of talent. Even if the other teams bench are more talented doesn't make them better. Its like spearsy23 said that lack consistency. That's where an offensive system saves them. Golden State has talent but their system is what allows them to flow so smoothly and look even better, same with the Spurs.

This guy's are professionals if they can't add stuff to the structure of the teams playbook that Donovan has then this team doesn't even have a chance to make the playoffs. Thunders bench can play with anybody due to having Kanter, Morrow, Payne, (Good) Dion who can all score but when you don't have a system of flow to the offense things just clump together and looks weird.

Starters get away with lack of offensive system for years because you have Russ and KD. But it's been the complaint for years late in games they don't have a system outside of the KD curl play where he gets the ball at the top of the key. The bench has brought the team back and blown games open so it's not a talent issue it's consistency

hollasin wrote:

kraytinprime wrote:

hollasin wrote:Billy Donovan was brought and fans were told it would be more spacing and passing. The Thunder don't really show much difference in offense since last year they may have maybe even took a step back. Is this coaching or is that on Russ and KD?

The talent on this team is enough to match any team. I get the lost was bad but so many times the team plays to lazy as a group then have to fight back. If they didn't have talent they woul never fight back or win those games. Players have changed a lot but offensive sets haven't.

Maybe I'm just wishful thinking but if the team gets a system that Billy has them in for the rest of the year this team is capable of beating anybody

We dont have more talent than Golden State and the Spurs.

After KD, Russ, Ibaka, and Adams are roster is crap. Golden State and Spurs have 9-10 high quality players.

I'm sorry but you are only as good as your weakest link. Our regular starting 5 has a higher plus/minus than Spurs/Warriors. But once we go to our bench our team sucks.

Our bench of Waiters/Collison/Morrow/Singler has to beat Iggy/Livingston/Ezeli/Barbosa? No way.

Thunder have a ton of talent. Even if the other teams bench are more talented doesn't make them better. Its like spearsy23 said that lack consistency. That's where an offensive system saves them. Golden State has talent but their system is what allows them to flow so smoothly and look even better, same with the Spurs.

This guy's are professionals if they can't add stuff to the structure of the teams playbook that Donovan has then this team doesn't even have a chance to make the playoffs. Thunders bench can play with anybody due to having Kanter, Morrow, Payne, (Good) Dion who can all score but when you don't have a system of flow to the offense things just clump together and looks weird.

Starters get away with lack of offensive system for years because you have Russ and KD. But it's been the complaint for years late in games they don't have a system outside of the KD curl play where he gets the ball at the top of the key. The bench has brought the team back and blown games open so it's not a talent issue it's consistency

Bull crap.

Golden State has way more talent than OKC.

What's the point of having an awesome system with great ball movement. And then the ball goes to a wide open Dion Waiters or Kyle Singer...........and they air ball it. That's the problem. OKC gets open looks for Waiters, Singler, Roberson all the time. But they are crap shooters. GSW gets wide open looks for Iggy, Barnes, and Barbosa. All 40% shooters.

You guys need to get out of dream land. We don't have more talent than GSW. Our big 4 is about equal in talent with Golden State.

KD, Russ, Ibaka, Adams
vs
Curry, Klay, Green, Bogut

But after that GSW just blows us away. And its not even close.

Waiters vs Iggy - give me a break. Do you think even in your wildest dreams Waiters could win the Finals MVP? LOL. Iggy was a Finals MVP, 1st Team defensive player, ALL-Star. Dude is playing elite level defense, can guard 3 positions, and hitting close to 40% from 3. Guy is miles better than Waiters.

Roberson vs Barnes - Barnes will get a max contract this summer. Hitting 40% from 3. Can guard 4 positions. Guy is way better than Roberson.

Livingston vs Payne - I like Payne. But come on. Livingston is the best backup PG in the league and is 6'7". I'm sorry but Livingston destroys Payne.

Kanter vs Ezeli - This is about an equal battle. Kanter better on offense, Ezeli better on defense.

Collison vs Speights - Speights is better. Guy can drop 30 points on a given night. Collison is just too old now.

Singler vs Barbosa - Barbosa is a better shooting, better penetrator, better defender.

Morrow vs Rush - Both similiar shooters. But Rush is a far better defender.

So after the big 4, GSW is better than us at 6 out of 7 positions.

Lets look at head to head by position

Curry > Russ - love Russ. But Curry is better than him this year.

Klay > Roberson - Easy. Klay destroys him.

Barnes < KD - KD easy.

Green > Ibaka - Green is much better, can just do way more things

Bogut = Adams - About equal. Bogut is the best rim protector in the league. Adams is slightly better on offense and guarding pick and roll.

So GSW is better than us at 3 positions in our starting line up. We are only better at one.

Iggy > Waiters - not even close

Livingston > Payne

Barbosa > Singler

Rush > Morrow

Ezeli = Kanter

Speights > Collison


Summary:

Starters - GSW is better than us at 3 positions. We are better at 1 and tied at 1.
Bench - GSW is better than us at 5 positions. We are tied at 1.

GSW better at 8 match-ups
OKC better at 1 match-up
Tied at 2 match-ups

Anyone who thinks we have more talent than GSW is either dilusional or knows nothing about basketball.

kraytinprime wrote:

hollasin wrote:

kraytinprime wrote:
We dont have more talent than Golden State and the Spurs.

After KD, Russ, Ibaka, and Adams are roster is crap. Golden State and Spurs have 9-10 high quality players.

I'm sorry but you are only as good as your weakest link. Our regular starting 5 has a higher plus/minus than Spurs/Warriors. But once we go to our bench our team sucks.

Our bench of Waiters/Collison/Morrow/Singler has to beat Iggy/Livingston/Ezeli/Barbosa? No way.

Thunder have a ton of talent. Even if the other teams bench are more talented doesn't make them better. Its like spearsy23 said that lack consistency. That's where an offensive system saves them. Golden State has talent but their system is what allows them to flow so smoothly and look even better, same with the Spurs.

This guy's are professionals if they can't add stuff to the structure of the teams playbook that Donovan has then this team doesn't even have a chance to make the playoffs. Thunders bench can play with anybody due to having Kanter, Morrow, Payne, (Good) Dion who can all score but when you don't have a system of flow to the offense things just clump together and looks weird.

Starters get away with lack of offensive system for years because you have Russ and KD. But it's been the complaint for years late in games they don't have a system outside of the KD curl play where he gets the ball at the top of the key. The bench has brought the team back and blown games open so it's not a talent issue it's consistency

Bull crap.

Golden State has way more talent than OKC.

What's the point of having an awesome system with great ball movement. And then the ball goes to a wide open Dion Waiters or Kyle Singer...........and they air ball it. That's the problem. OKC gets open looks for Waiters, Singler, Roberson all the time. But they are crap shooters. GSW gets wide open looks for Iggy, Barnes, and Barbosa. All 40% shooters.

You guys need to get out of dream land. We don't have more talent than GSW. Our big 4 is about equal in talent with Golden State.

KD, Russ, Ibaka, Adams
vs
Curry, Klay, Green, Bogut

But after that GSW just blows us away. And its not even close.

Waiters vs Iggy - give me a break. Do you think even in your wildest dreams Waiters could win the Finals MVP? LOL. Iggy was a Finals MVP, 1st Team defensive player, ALL-Star. Dude is playing elite level defense, can guard 3 positions, and hitting close to 40% from 3. Guy is miles better than Waiters.

Roberson vs Barnes - Barnes will get a max contract this summer. Hitting 40% from 3. Can guard 4 positions. Guy is way better than Roberson.

Livingston vs Payne - I like Payne. But come on. Livingston is the best backup PG in the league and is 6'7". I'm sorry but Livingston destroys Payne.

Kanter vs Ezeli - This is about an equal battle. Kanter better on offense, Ezeli better on defense.

Collison vs Speights - Speights is better. Guy can drop 30 points on a given night. Collison is just too old now.

Singler vs Barbosa - Barbosa is a better shooting, better penetrator, better defender.

Morrow vs Rush - Both similiar shooters. But Rush is a far better defender.

So after the big 4, GSW is better than us at 6 out of 7 positions.

Lets look at head to head by position

Curry > Russ - love Russ. But Curry is better than him this year.

Klay > Roberson - Easy. Klay destroys him.

Barnes < KD - KD easy.

Green > Ibaka - Green is much better, can just do way more things

Bogut = Adams - About equal. Bogut is the best rim protector in the league. Adams is slightly better on offense and guarding pick and roll.

So GSW is better than us at 3 positions in our starting line up. We are only better at one.

Iggy > Waiters - not even close

Livingston > Payne

Barbosa > Singler

Rush > Morrow

Ezeli = Kanter

Speights > Collison


Summary:

Starters - GSW is better than us at 3 positions. We are better at 1 and tied at 1.
Bench - GSW is better than us at 5 positions. We are tied at 1.

GSW better at 8 match-ups
OKC better at 1 match-up
Tied at 2 match-ups

Anyone who thinks we have more talent than GSW is either dilusional or knows nothing about basketball.

What dream land am I in? I never said they had more talent then anybody. I agreed with another poster saying they don't have consistency. Teams like the Spurs have turned mediocre talent look great off the bench but when they left the players looked terrible.

A great system makes players look better then they actually are. Again I never said they had more talent just that a system can give them something to hang their hat on and give them consistency

The real problem for the bench offensively is that Donovan's system is almost entirely reliant on the pg and our backup pg is a rookie that's still trying to fit in. I love Cam and I think he is going to be a big time player for a long time, but right now he either isn't willing or isn't allowed to control the game. In order for Billy's offense to work someone has to put pressure on the defense by getting into the lane and making them move, the ball movement portion comes after the drive and kick gets the defense into scramble mode. It's the only reason I think Dion still has some value to us over Morrow/Singler, he still sucks at it but he is better than either of them at creating gaps off the dribble. Optimally we'd just park Singler and morrow on the wing and let Cam do his thing, run the P&R, break down his own defender, receive handoffs from the bigs while sprinkling in some Kanter post-ups. For some reason Donovan seems to think Cam isn't ready for that though, and it leads to passive Cam that defers to the other bench guards.

we'd be better if we staggered durant and westbrook in a manner that we never have a situation where both are off the court. if enes kanter is going to play at all, he must play with at least one of them. this would help both the offense and defense overall. we'd get less benefit of wesbtrook / durant lineups, but we'd eliminate the death that is kanter lineups without either one in the game (which are -10pp100 or so for the season).

slick_watts wrote:we'd be better if we staggered durant and westbrook in a manner that we never have a situation where both are off the court. if enes kanter is going to play at all, he must play with at least one of them. this would help both the offense and defense overall. we'd get less benefit of wesbtrook / durant lineups, but we'd eliminate the death that is kanter lineups without either one in the game (which are -10pp100 or so for the season).

Agree 100%

First 6 minutes - KD/Russ on the court
Next 6 minutes - Just Russ
Next 6 minutes - Just KD
Final 6 minutes - KD/Russ on the court

Total minutes for KD/Russ - 36 minutes. In the playoffs this can increase to 38-40 minutes.

I hate the way we have been starting the 2nd and 4th quarters with both KD/Russ on the bench. It totally turns momentum against us. Our bench is just not good enough with either KD/Russ helping them.

Also having KD on the court without Russ for 6 minutes per half may help KD to be more aggressive. He's been pretty passive lately.

Staggering lineups isn't rocket science. Its was the Heat did with Wade/Bosh/Lebron and what the Spurs do since 2007. Playing full bench lineups only works when you have 10 quality players like Golden State.

they're going to have to dial back on the to's. i hesitate to say westy has to because russ gotta be russ if you want the all-star russ.

but that being said the other players have to be more alert to all the things he does. he may do them last second and irrationally at times, but the team shouldn't be surprised anymore. they MUST expect the unexpected. i'm really tired of adams acting surprised when the ball hits his face.

Those tos occured without a point guard on the floor. That no-pg-lineup has turned the ball over every third possession in two games.

Pillendreher wrote:Those tos occured without a point guard on the floor. That no-pg-lineup has turned the ball over every third possession in two games.

This was the main issue. Russ went out and the ball just bounced around the court with no structure. When he got back in it took a few possesions to get back in flow. I get Payne didn't perform well last time out against the Warriors but gotta see what the kid can do because Waiters and Foye aren't the answer to the back pg spot