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Pillendreher wrote:This needs its own topic. I just took a quick look at CARMELO and its BPM projections:

Russ: +9.5 projected / +14.8 BPM achieved | +5.3
Dipo: +1.7 projected / -0.8 BPM achieved | -2.5
Robes: +0.9 projected / -0.1 achieved | -1.0
Sabonis: -1.9 projected / -4.7 achieved | -2.8
Adams: +1.5 projected / +0.7 achieved | -0.8
Payne: -0.1 projected / -6.7 achieved | -6.6
Abrines: n/a
Grant: -0.8 projected / -1.8 achieved | -1.0
Kanter: -1.3 projected / -0.7 | +0.6

The rest of the team doesn't really matter (like Christon or Lauvergne) or hasn't been long enough with us to get reliable BPM stats (DMD, Gibson).

Now I know 538 isn't the holy grail and doesn't know everything, but I still find this interesting. Basically the only guys that outperformed their BPM projection are Russ and Kanter, ie the guys we feature the most in isolations. It that just a coincidence or is there more to it? Is our style holding our roster back?

What do you guys think?

Knrstz wrote:I'll also add this. When are the thunder at their best? It's when they are in transition. That's true of times past and this year. Why are they at their best in transition? They have better athletes and players that can capitalize one on one when the opposition doesn't have time to set the defense. How much sense does it really make to have your pg chasing rebounds? Sure it works for us and it even benefits us. It's not because it's a good strategy, it's because Russ is one of the greatest athletes to play the game. Our players and athleticism overcome our style of play. I wouldn't really have a problem with this if we weren't pathetic in the half court offense.

This is one of the reasons I wanted to move on from Brooks. I think it's obvious now that Donovan isn't better than brooks, but neither of them are really the problem. The only two constants are Russ and Presti. We had a guy score 58 points and we still lost to a non-playoff team at home. The warriors are great not because curry creates for everyone but everyone moves the ball for each other. I
Ike to talk trades and stuff, but I don't think it matters if we don't learn to move the ball better.

bondom34 wrote:And I get this isn't totally about last night, but a lot of talk today is a huge overreaction.

Pillendreher wrote:

bondom34 wrote:And I get this isn't totally about last night, but a lot of talk today is a huge overreaction.

I've been saying we have a problem in that regard for a long time. I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Last night just intensified that.

bondom34 wrote:

Pillendreher wrote:

bondom34 wrote:And I get this isn't totally about last night, but a lot of talk today is a huge overreaction.

I've been saying we have a problem in that regard for a long time. I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Last night just intensified that.

Which is why I said it wasn't totally about last night .

There are problems, but a lot of it is because the roster is/will be in flux this season and it's not built right yet. Donovan isn't helping that IMO either, and the defense has been an issue to me more than anything. The offense isn't good for a lot of reasons, the biggest of which to me is lack of good offensive players.

Knrstz wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Pillendreher wrote:
I've been saying we have a problem in that regard for a long time. I think it's something that needs to be addressed. Last night just intensified that.

Which is why I said it wasn't totally about last night .

There are problems, but a lot of it is because the roster is/will be in flux this season and it's not built right yet. Donovan isn't helping that IMO either, and the defense has been an issue to me more than anything. The offense isn't good for a lot of reasons, the biggest of which to me is lack of good offensive players.

So who do you bring in to fix it and who do you get rid of? It seems like most of us acknowledge this is the problem but people say, "we can't get rid of Kanter, Adams and Vic...they are our core". Oladipo is our best offensive and two way player, except when he's not. Do you guys notice we start every game trying to get Adams involved and then we just stop? Kanter is the most consistent offensive guy but he is a huge liability.

bondom34 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

bondom34 wrote:Which is why I said it wasn't totally about last night .

There are problems, but a lot of it is because the roster is/will be in flux this season and it's not built right yet. Donovan isn't helping that IMO either, and the defense has been an issue to me more than anything. The offense isn't good for a lot of reasons, the biggest of which to me is lack of good offensive players.

So who do you bring in to fix it and who do you get rid of? It seems like most of us acknowledge this is the problem but people say, "we can't get rid of Kanter, Adams and Vic...they are our core". Oladipo is our best offensive and two way player, except when he's not. Do you guys notice we start every game trying to get Adams involved and then we just stop? Kanter is the most consistent offensive guy but he is a huge liability.

I don't think Kanter's the core at all, and would move him ASAP if there was a decent deal that made sense. Vic I'm less sold on trading but if there's a great deal sure.

Knrstz wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:
So who do you bring in to fix it and who do you get rid of? It seems like most of us acknowledge this is the problem but people say, "we can't get rid of Kanter, Adams and Vic...they are our core". Oladipo is our best offensive and two way player, except when he's not. Do you guys notice we start every game trying to get Adams involved and then we just stop? Kanter is the most consistent offensive guy but he is a huge liability.

I don't think Kanter's the core at all, and would move him ASAP if there was a decent deal that made sense. Vic I'm less sold on trading but if there's a great deal sure.

And who can we target?

Knrstz wrote:

bondom34 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:
So who do you bring in to fix it and who do you get rid of? It seems like most of us acknowledge this is the problem but people say, "we can't get rid of Kanter, Adams and Vic...they are our core". Oladipo is our best offensive and two way player, except when he's not. Do you guys notice we start every game trying to get Adams involved and then we just stop? Kanter is the most consistent offensive guy but he is a huge liability.

I don't think Kanter's the core at all, and would move him ASAP if there was a decent deal that made sense. Vic I'm less sold on trading but if there's a great deal sure.

And who can we target?

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

Knrstz wrote:

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

Do you ever just watch Kanter on the defensive end? Don't just watch the ball but watch him. It's really bad. He's our second best offensive weapon but a huge liability.

Knrstz wrote:

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

Do you ever just watch Kanter on the defensive end? Don't just watch the ball but watch him. It's really bad. He's our second best offensive weapon but a huge liability.

sleestak33 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

Do you ever just watch Kanter on the defensive end? Don't just watch the ball but watch him. It's really bad. He's our second best offensive weapon but a huge liability.

What I don't get about fans that think like you is where do you come up with that? James Harden is widely considered to be a terrible defender and he's probably going to win the MVP this year and has his team on pace for 55 wins and a 3 seed in the West. You see, if a player is an elite overall player with the capabilities that Harden has to score and assist your defense doesn't need to be that good because that's the role he plays...to score and set up teammates. Kanter's role is to score and rebound and he is one of the top 5 bigs in the NBA in that regard as his PER 36 minute numbers show 24 pts. 11 rbds. With your logic Houston should bring Harden off the bench to play 21 minutes per game because "he's such a liability out there". Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Kanter makes up for any defensive deficiencies with his offensive rebounding since he averages almost 5 per game. Those are like steals because they give the team an extra possession and many times he scores off of those so he makes a huge impact on every game without even needing to have the ball passed to him. The liability on this team is Roberson's offense which is coming to full fruition right now causing the team's recent struggles. You can't play a D-league player over 30 minutes per game and not expect to see huge issues...he's killing them.

sleestak33 wrote:

Knrstz wrote:

sleestak33 wrote:Some of these posts about getting rid of Kanter...man you guys just don't get it. This guy's per 36 minutes averages are 24 points and 12 rebounds and he is CLEARLY OKC's 2nd best player and arguably their most consistent since Russ has so many games with 8-10 turnovers and sub 35% shooting. The core of this team is Westbrook, Kanter, Adams and Oladipo...those 4 guys are untouchable and frankly Kanter should be starting alongside Adams as they have showed they play fabulously alongside each other (especially in the playoffs last year where they dominated). There are only 4 bigs in the NBA averaging 20/10 and Kanter EASILY would average that if given the minutes (he averaged 19/11 in only 31 minutes per game his first year here). If they get rid of Kanter it's just going to make the team that much worse.

Do you ever just watch Kanter on the defensive end? Don't just watch the ball but watch him. It's really bad. He's our second best offensive weapon but a huge liability.

What I don't get about fans that think like you is where do you come up with that? James Harden is widely considered to be a terrible defender and he's probably going to win the MVP this year and has his team on pace for 55 wins and a 3 seed in the West. You see, if a player is an elite overall player with the capabilities that Harden has to score and assist your defense doesn't need to be that good because that's the role he plays...to score and set up teammates. Kanter's role is to score and rebound and he is one of the top 5 bigs in the NBA in that regard as his PER 36 minute numbers show 24 pts. 11 rbds. With your logic Houston should bring Harden off the bench to play 21 minutes per game because "he's such a liability out there". Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Kanter makes up for any defensive deficiencies with his offensive rebounding since he averages almost 5 per game. Those are like steals because they give the team an extra possession and many times he scores off of those so he makes a huge impact on every game without even needing to have the ball passed to him. The liability on this team is Roberson's offense which is coming to full fruition right now causing the team's recent struggles. You can't play a D-league player over 30 minutes per game and not expect to see huge issues...he's killing them.