Should McDermott or Roberson be our starting SF next season?

[getrichordie]

So there are a lot of things at play here and much to discuss. Before we get to that, I want to let you guys know that I will be opening a poll for everyone to make their pick.

On to the factors at play...

Andre Roberson is set to become a Restricted Free Agent. This means, beginning July 1st, 2017 at 12:01 a.m., any team may make an offer on Roberson's services and the Thunder have the right to match that offer or refuse that offer. Some talking heads around the NBA believe that Roberson could command upwards of $18,000,000 per year offers. While that seems utterly insane to me, that's what is on the horizon. Back in November, "sources" say Roberson turned down $48,000,000 over 4 years. While Roberson is a defensive juggernaut on the perimeter, his offensive can be described as anemic. Roberson shot 184 threes over the course of the 2016-17 NBA season. How many did he hit? 45. That's 24.45% from downtown. For a starting wing playing 30 minutes a night in the NBA, shooting that bad from downtown is just plain awful. And when you factor in that the Thunder finished dead last in 3P% in the regular season, it makes you wonder if it is worth retaining Roberson, even for the $48,000,000 over 4 years that he turned down. Of course, we all know of Roberson's defensive impact on the game, but leaving Westbrook with minimal floor-spacing isn't ideal.

Doug McDermott is quite the opposite of Roberson. McDermott has a really team-friendly contract, earning $3.3 million in '17-'18 and is set to hit Restricted Free Agency at the end of the '17-'18 season. While McDermott's defense leaves a lot to be desired as he finished dead last in ESPN's Defensive Real Plus-Minus in the entire NBA. Interestingly enough his DRPM ranking has him right behind the likes of Isaiah Thomas, Bogan Bogdanovic, Jordan Clarkson, and Kyrie Irving. But his offense is another story. McDermott is a career 40% three-point shooter. Overall, he shot 45% from the field last season. Out of our shooters on the team (excluding Roberson, who primarily gets his points from back-door cuts or transition dunks), that's good for second, right behind Jerami Grant. Is McDermott the guy that can give our starting unit the floor-spacing it needs to be at it's best offensively, and more importantly, to give Westbrook a break?

...

So, the question remains... If you had to pick between the two, Andre Roberson or Doug McDermott?

[Kizz Fastfists]

If the goal is to win games then Roberson should be the starting SF. If they are rebuilding and tanking then McDermott can help them lose games as good as anyone in the NBA.

[getrichordie]

If the goal is to win games then Roberson should be the starting SF. If they are rebuilding and tanking then McDermott can help them lose games as good as anyone in the NBA.

What is your reasoning for this line of thinking? I'm genuinely curious.

[Kizz Fastfists]

The team is good with Roberson on the court and crap with McDermott on the court. McDermott is a bottom 5 SF in RPM. Roberson is a top 20 SF. McDermott is the worst defender on the team and you want him to replace the best defender? McDermott, despite the better 3pt shooting, is not a good offensive player and is not enough better than Roberson on that end to make any difference. McDermott can't cut, can't dribble, drive or do anything other than stand in one place and wait for the ball. At least Roberson can move, set screens, cut the basket and finish, etc. Roberson can create offense with his defense. McDermott hurts the offense with his defense because they are taking the ball out of the net more and the opposing defense is set.

If Roberson walks this off-season and they replace him with McDermott OKC will miss the playoffs next year. OKC's problem was their inept bench including McDermott, Grant, Kanter and Semaj. They should be focusing on upgrading those spots with cheap moves and keeping their starting 5 which was a very good group, including Taj. OKC didn't lose games because of Roberson. OKC lost games because of their bench. Chicago knew McDermott was worthless which is why they were willing to include Taj and a pick to dump him.

[bondom34]

The team is good with Roberson on the court and crap with McDermott on the court. .

QFT

[getrichordie]

The team is good with Roberson on the court and crap with McDermott on the court. .

QFT

That's an interesting take.
Can you guys provide me some stats to back this up? Thanks.

Take a look at this game. I'm not saying he will consistently play like this, but he can drive and he can cut and get himself open.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

And I think that you are being a little dramatic about the trade. They knew Taj was an expiring and got as much value as they could out of him. A promising lottery talent at a position of need and a nice stretch 4/5 in Lauvergne. They gave up a second. You are acting like it is a first. This trade was not about dumping McDermott. It was more about dumping Taj and getting some value in return rather than just letting him walk for nothing.

[bondom34]

That's an interesting take.

Take a look at this game. I'm not saying he will consistently play like this, but he can drive and he can cut and get himself open.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

And I think that you are being a little dramatic about the trade. They knew Taj was an expiring and got as much value as they could out of him. A promising lottery talent at a position of need and a nice stretch 4/5 in Lauvergne. They gave up a second. You are acting like it is a first. This trade was not about dumping McDermott. It was more about dumping Taj and getting some value in return rather than just letting him walk for nothing.

Can you guys provide me some stats to back this up? Thanks.

I'm honestly not taking much from a single game highlight. From that I could go to the same with Roberson and find game highlights, which aren't really informative. Using that, here's a game of Cam Payne's:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

And yet, he's in reality a sub par backup PG.

As for this debate:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612760/lineups-advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*adams:GROUP_NAME*E*westb:GROUP_NAME*E*olad:GROUP_NAME*E*gibson&sort=MIN&dir=1

Here are OKC's lineups with the 4 man group of Dipo/Russ/Adams/Taj. With Roberson they've got over a +11 net rating, with McD a -1.3. Both the offense and defense get worse.

To add to that, we're talking about one of the worst players at the SF position via RPM, who's never been a good player. He's got a few years of history of being a consistently mediocre to negative player with a single skill in shooting with essentially nothing else that makes his game notable.

There's a long history of one of these two being a pretty good player and one being a pretty poor one honestly.

[getrichordie]

That's an interesting take.

Take a look at this game. I'm not saying he will consistently play like this, but he can drive and he can cut and get himself open.

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

And I think that you are being a little dramatic about the trade. They knew Taj was an expiring and got as much value as they could out of him. A promising lottery talent at a position of need and a nice stretch 4/5 in Lauvergne. They gave up a second. You are acting like it is a first. This trade was not about dumping McDermott. It was more about dumping Taj and getting some value in return rather than just letting him walk for nothing.

Can you guys provide me some stats to back this up? Thanks.

I'm honestly not taking much from a single game highlight. From that I could go to the same with Roberson and find game highlights, which aren't really informative. Using that, here's a game of Cam Payne's:

Spoiler:

Watch on YouTube

And yet, he's in reality a sub par backup PG.

As for this debate:
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612760/lineups-advanced/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*adams:GROUP_NAME*E*westb:GROUP_NAME*E*olad:GROUP_NAME*E*gibson&sort=MIN&dir=1

Here are OKC's lineups with the 4 man group of Dipo/Russ/Adams/Taj. With Roberson they've got over a +11 net rating, with McD a -1.3. Both the offense and defense get worse.

To add to that, we're talking about one of the worst players at the SF position via RPM, who's never been a good player. He's got a few years of history of being a consistently mediocre to negative player with a single skill in shooting with essentially nothing else that makes his game notable.

There's a long history of one of these two being a pretty good player and one being a pretty poor one honestly.

Honestly, 34 minutes is such a small sample size. And RPM is a flawed stat, albeit it does tell a story. I think a lot of our players are lower than they should be on ESPN's DRPM list due to playing so much with Kanter. It's hard to play defense when you know you can't play up or they will get to the rim with ease over Kanter.

[bondom34]

Honestly, 34 minutes is such a small sample size. And RPM is a flawed stat, albeit it does tell a story. I think a lot of our players are lower than they should be on ESPN's DRPM list due to playing so much with Kanter. It's hard to play defense when you know you can't play up or they will get to the rim with ease over Kanter.

Could you expand on why you dislike RPM? It's factoring in the other players on the court, it's based off who outscores who while on court. And Doug was awful in RPM every year in his career while Dre has been rather good yearly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

Last year Dre at 28, Doug 2nd to last.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/5

2 years ago Dre at 15, Doug at 2nd to last.

Also, Robes played about 400 more minutes with Kanter than Doug. Doug just is a bad basketball player. He can shoot. He's a less athletic Morrow.

[getrichordie]

Honestly, 34 minutes is such a small sample size. And RPM is a flawed stat, albeit it does tell a story. I think a lot of our players are lower than they should be on ESPN's DRPM list due to playing so much with Kanter. It's hard to play defense when you know you can't play up or they will get to the rim with ease over Kanter.

Could you expand on why you dislike RPM? It's factoring in the other players on the court, it's based off who outscores who while on court. And Doug was awful in RPM every year in his career while Dre has been rather good yearly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

Last year Dre at 28, Doug 2nd to last.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/5

2 years ago Dre at 15, Doug at 2nd to last.

Also, Robes played about 400 more minutes with Kanter than Doug. Doug just is a bad basketball player. He can shoot. He's a less athletic Morrow.

True, it does factor in other players on the court, but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, if Curry did not play with defensive players like Bogut, Green, and Pachulia, his DRPM would most likely drop. I think if you take any line up with a poor defensive center, the defensive stats aren't going to be good for anyone involved.

Also, I would take a look at some of the lineup stats from last year with Chicago:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/lineups-traditional/?CF=GROUP_NAME*E*MCDERMOTT&sort=MIN&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=MinutesPer

When McDermott played with Gasol, Butler, and Rose, he was a net positive.

EDIT: Also, I posted that video just to illustrate that McDermott is capable of cutting and driving and isn't just a catch and shoot guy contrary to what the poster I replied to said.

[bondom34]

Honestly, 34 minutes is such a small sample size. And RPM is a flawed stat, albeit it does tell a story. I think a lot of our players are lower than they should be on ESPN's DRPM list due to playing so much with Kanter. It's hard to play defense when you know you can't play up or they will get to the rim with ease over Kanter.

Could you expand on why you dislike RPM? It's factoring in the other players on the court, it's based off who outscores who while on court. And Doug was awful in RPM every year in his career while Dre has been rather good yearly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

Last year Dre at 28, Doug 2nd to last.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/5

2 years ago Dre at 15, Doug at 2nd to last.

Also, Robes played about 400 more minutes with Kanter than Doug. Doug just is a bad basketball player. He can shoot. He's a less athletic Morrow.

True, it does factor in other players on the court, but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, if Curry did not play with defensive players like Bogut, Green, and Pachulia, his DRPM would most likely drop. I think if you take any line up with a poor defensive center, the defensive stats aren't going to be good for anyone involved.

Also, I would take a look at some of the lineup stats from last year with Chicago:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/lineups-traditional/?CF=GROUP_NAME*E*MCDERMOTT&sort=MIN&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=MinutesPer

When McDermott played with Gasol, Butler, and Rose, he was a net positive.

I'm not so sure about that. Lowry's a quick example, but he plays with a poor defensive C in Val and is a plus defender. Same for Rubio. And Curry's DRPM has been pretty consistent over the years, while the players around have changed. So I'm not exactly sure what it isn't telling. We also have pure single year RAPM:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_JkGXDXtu3cSLzplkQo4mDYOMLi-Sh2YfIb9nKeMNZI/edit?usp=sharing

and multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit

Both again showing Doug hurting his team's performance, and Dre helping.

To add, the Bulls were a good bit better with Doug on the bench. Which again is a pattern for him.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1

To add to that, we've got the data with Doug in OKC. You can swap him out for Robes and the team gets worse. He's just not someone who's really worth keeping on the roster unless he's on a rookie scale contract.

[Kizz Fastfists]

You are wanting to blame Kanter for McDermott's RPM, but he played a lot more with the Bulls than he did the Thunder. He had a -2.9 BPM with the Bulls last year, the best of his career, and there is no reason to ever expect him to be anything more. I guess if you think he will suddenly learn how to play decent defense he could become Kyle Singler bad instead of fighting with Jerami Grant to be the worst SF in the NBA.

[getrichordie]

Could you expand on why you dislike RPM? It's factoring in the other players on the court, it's based off who outscores who while on court. And Doug was awful in RPM every year in his career while Dre has been rather good yearly.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2016/sort/RPM/position/5

Last year Dre at 28, Doug 2nd to last.

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM/position/5

2 years ago Dre at 15, Doug at 2nd to last.

Also, Robes played about 400 more minutes with Kanter than Doug. Doug just is a bad basketball player. He can shoot. He's a less athletic Morrow.

True, it does factor in other players on the court, but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, if Curry did not play with defensive players like Bogut, Green, and Pachulia, his DRPM would most likely drop. I think if you take any line up with a poor defensive center, the defensive stats aren't going to be good for anyone involved.

Also, I would take a look at some of the lineup stats from last year with Chicago:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/lineups-traditional/?CF=GROUP_NAME*E*MCDERMOTT&sort=MIN&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=MinutesPer

When McDermott played with Gasol, Butler, and Rose, he was a net positive.

I'm not so sure about that. Lowry's a quick example, but he plays with a poor defensive C in Val and is a plus defender. Same for Rubio. And Curry's DRPM has been pretty consistent over the years, while the players around have changed. So I'm not exactly sure what it isn't telling. We also have pure single year RAPM:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_JkGXDXtu3cSLzplkQo4mDYOMLi-Sh2YfIb9nKeMNZI/edit?usp=sharing

and multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit

Both again showing Doug hurting his team's performance, and Dre helping.

To add, the Bulls were a good bit better with Doug on the bench. Which again is a pattern for him.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1

To add to that, we've got the data with Doug in OKC. You can swap him out for Robes and the team gets worse. He's just not someone who's really worth keeping on the roster unless he's on a rookie scale contract.

There's also a lot of players ranked below McDermott who are considered very good players. Just open the list and look at some of the names below his score. I don't disagree with what you are saying. I'm not saying he is going to immediately better than Robes, but I do think continuity plays a big factor in how many (not all) players fare in their respective role. I think if given a year of playing time with our starting unit, that McDermott's offense can have a similar impact that Roberson's defense does.

Take Waiters for example, he was considered this and that but he made big shots and had a defensive impact. Look at what he did in Miami when he was given a chance at a bigger role.

The big question is the difference between Roberson and McDermott $12-14 million dollars + tax?


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[bondom34]

True, it does factor in other players on the court, but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, if Curry did not play with defensive players like Bogut, Green, and Pachulia, his DRPM would most likely drop. I think if you take any line up with a poor defensive center, the defensive stats aren't going to be good for anyone involved.

Also, I would take a look at some of the lineup stats from last year with Chicago:

http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/lineups-traditional/?CF=GROUP_NAME*E*MCDERMOTT&sort=MIN&dir=1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=MinutesPer

When McDermott played with Gasol, Butler, and Rose, he was a net positive.

I'm not so sure about that. Lowry's a quick example, but he plays with a poor defensive C in Val and is a plus defender. Same for Rubio. And Curry's DRPM has been pretty consistent over the years, while the players around have changed. So I'm not exactly sure what it isn't telling. We also have pure single year RAPM:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_JkGXDXtu3cSLzplkQo4mDYOMLi-Sh2YfIb9nKeMNZI/edit?usp=sharing

and multi year:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12rcLDCaJSh_b1hA3UyLG5-neayTBl_weqNVCGM0LheA/edit

Both again showing Doug hurting his team's performance, and Dre helping.

To add, the Bulls were a good bit better with Doug on the bench. Which again is a pattern for him.
http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612741/onoffcourt-advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1

To add to that, we've got the data with Doug in OKC. You can swap him out for Robes and the team gets worse. He's just not someone who's really worth keeping on the roster unless he's on a rookie scale contract.

There's also a lot of players ranked below McDermott who are considered very good players. Just open the list and look at some of the names below his score. I don't disagree with what you are saying. I'm not saying he is going to immediately better than Robes, but I do think continuity plays a big factor in how many (not all) players fare in their respective role. I think if given a year of playing time with our starting unit, that McDermott's offense can have a similar impact that Roberson's defense does.

Take Waiters for example, he was considered this and that but he made big shots and had a defensive impact. Look at what he did in Miami when he was given a chance at a bigger role.

The big question is the difference between Roberson and McDermott $12-14 million dollars + tax?


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

McDermott is the 2nd to last SF. There's one player below him.

Also, he's going to be paid in a year, then you still have an expensive, but worse player.

Also, Waiters has had one decent year when he still wasn't as good as Roberson in that year.

Right now Doug isn't close to the player Robes is, and they're the same age.

To top it all off, we've still got a history of one player being a plus (Dre) one being a minus (Doug). I mean there's a shot you could start Kanter over Adams and it works too, but the odds of that are honestly better than the odds of starting Doug over Dre and it being better than Dre.

[spearsy23]

Should Jimmy Johnson drive his racecar at talladega or a 1990 Buick century? The Buick is cheaper after all. Gets better gas mileage as well.

[XxMisterFreakXx]

OK watching Doug for three years as a bulls fan i can tell you that he is more then just a spot-up shooter who is a much more versatile offensive player then really given credit and even athletically tho i can agree defensively he's all over the damn place. Now the biggest problem with Doug is he's damn inconsistent but you would see good stretches from him followed by a bad stretch but he always showed some flashes but let me start with the good.

The Good

One of Doug's biggest strengths is his off-ball movement and cutting he is probably if not one the best on the bulls in that category when he was in Chicago he picked his spots and caught his man off guard with cutting for easy layup's and hunting for his shots with his off-ball movement and even showed off ATH which i honestly didn't know he had. Doug gets the same "white guy" comparison which is white dude who just shoot's three's but he honestly is an okay athlete who moves fairly well on the court. To go along with that he has a decent post-up game that he can use to his advantage vs the smaller players and equal his size but it's something that we rarely used in Chicago which i felt it could've been an area he could of done well in.

Here are some highlight videos last year and this year showing all that again i know these don't cover the whole season as a whole but like i said I've seen him Chicago.

These are from 2016

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

showing some athleticism

Watch on YouTube

this from 2017

Watch on YouTube

all of these show some of Doug versatility if you look at others then the one i showed you will see more of this. This is when Doug plays well when he moves without the ball and is aggressive and isn't passive. This is what us bulls fans wanted to see more of consistently but he seemed passive at times and just stood in the corner that's when he doesn't play well.

Now i don't think he is a good player nor bad (defensively he is bad but offensively it's different) and i don't think he has high upside but i do think there is some upside there with his offense.

The Bad

With Doug it's obviously his defense and his defensive rpm like someone said above involves who Doug is out on the court but overall rpm involves involves a lot of other things as well. I'm not forgetting the fact he's not a good defensive player and doesn't have the strength nor lateral quickness to defend the post nor the perimeter but he tested out fairly well athletically at the combine so i wonder if a lot of this has to do with his reaction time cause i watch him time and time again defensively when he's guarding one on one he reacts so late at times but he lacks defensive iq. Doug is coach-able cause of the work he puts in with the coaches plus anybody can learn to be a better defender but for Doug it's not gonna happen overnight but this was actually encouraging looking at Doug's DBPM which decreased each year in Chicago again their negative but i don't expect Doug to be a good defender but passable at best OKC was a transition period now he has the summer to get a better grip on the team structure and chemistry.

14-15 CHI: -3.3
15-16 CHI: -2.8
16-17 CHI: -2.0
16-17 OKC: -2.9
16-17 TOT: -2.3

I'am intrigued of the idea to see Doug play the 4 which was his natural position i college (I think it was IDK) which he could be more comfortable with given he knows the ropes more at the 4 and he wouldn't be having to run all over the court to chase his defender.

To answer the question no i don't think Doug should start.

[getrichordie]

Spoiler:

OK watching Doug for three years as a bulls fan i can tell you that he is more then just a spot-up shooter who is a much more versatile offensive player then really given credit and even athletically tho i can agree defensively he's all over the damn place. Now the biggest problem with Doug is he's damn inconsistent but you would see good stretches from him followed by a bad stretch but he always showed some flashes but let me start with the good.

The Good

One of Doug's biggest strengths is his off-ball movement and cutting he is probably if not one the best on the bulls in that category when he was in Chicago he picked his spots and caught his man off guard with cutting for easy layup's and hunting for his shots with his off-ball movement and even showed off ATH which i honestly didn't know he had. Doug gets the same "white guy" comparison which is white dude who just shoot's three's but he honestly is an okay athlete who moves fairly well on the court. To go along with that he has a decent post-up game that he can use to his advantage vs the smaller players and equal his size but it's something that we rarely used in Chicago which i felt it could've been an area he could of done well in.

Here are some highlight videos last year and this year showing all that again i know these don't cover the whole season as a whole but like i said I've seen him Chicago.

These are from 2016

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

showing some athleticism

Watch on YouTube

this from 2017

Watch on YouTube

all of these show some of Doug versatility if you look at others then the one i showed you will see more of this. This is when Doug plays well when he moves without the ball and is aggressive and isn't passive. This is what us bulls fans wanted to see more of consistently but he seemed passive at times and just stood in the corner that's when he doesn't play well.

Now i don't think he is a good player nor bad (defensively he is bad but offensively it's different) and i don't think he has high upside but i do think there is some upside there with his offense.

The Bad

With Doug it's obviously his defense and his defensive rpm like someone said above involves who Doug is out on the court but overall rpm involves involves a lot of other things as well. I'm not forgetting the fact he's not a good defensive player and doesn't have the strength nor lateral quickness to defend the post nor the perimeter but he tested out fairly well athletically at the combine so i wonder if a lot of this has to do with his reaction time cause i watch him time and time again defensively when he's guarding one on one he reacts so late at times but he lacks defensive iq. Doug is coach-able cause of the work he puts in with the coaches plus anybody can learn to be a better defender but for Doug it's not gonna happen overnight but this was actually encouraging looking at Doug's DBPM which decreased each year in Chicago again their negative but i don't expect Doug to be a good defender but passable at best OKC was a transition period now he has the summer to get a better grip on the team structure and chemistry.

14-15 CHI: -3.3
15-16 CHI: -2.8
16-17 CHI: -2.0
16-17 OKC: -2.9
16-17 TOT: -2.3

I'am intrigued of the idea to see Doug play the 4 which was his natural position i college (I think it was IDK) which he could be more comfortable with given he knows the ropes more at the 4 and he wouldn't be having to run all over the court to chase his defender.

To answer the question no i don't think Doug should start.

Thank you for that breakdown. Great insight to Mr. McBuckets. I thought it interesting that you would say he was too passive and just stood in the corner. Do we know if that was by Hoiberg's design or of Doug's own accord? Do we know that or are we just assuming it was Doug being passive?



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[XxMisterFreakXx]

Spoiler:

OK watching Doug for three years as a bulls fan i can tell you that he is more then just a spot-up shooter who is a much more versatile offensive player then really given credit and even athletically tho i can agree defensively he's all over the damn place. Now the biggest problem with Doug is he's damn inconsistent but you would see good stretches from him followed by a bad stretch but he always showed some flashes but let me start with the good.

The Good

One of Doug's biggest strengths is his off-ball movement and cutting he is probably if not one the best on the bulls in that category when he was in Chicago he picked his spots and caught his man off guard with cutting for easy layup's and hunting for his shots with his off-ball movement and even showed off ATH which i honestly didn't know he had. Doug gets the same "white guy" comparison which is white dude who just shoot's three's but he honestly is an okay athlete who moves fairly well on the court. To go along with that he has a decent post-up game that he can use to his advantage vs the smaller players and equal his size but it's something that we rarely used in Chicago which i felt it could've been an area he could of done well in.

Here are some highlight videos last year and this year showing all that again i know these don't cover the whole season as a whole but like i said I've seen him Chicago.

These are from 2016

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

showing some athleticism

Watch on YouTube

this from 2017

Watch on YouTube

all of these show some of Doug versatility if you look at others then the one i showed you will see more of this. This is when Doug plays well when he moves without the ball and is aggressive and isn't passive. This is what us bulls fans wanted to see more of consistently but he seemed passive at times and just stood in the corner that's when he doesn't play well.

Now i don't think he is a good player nor bad (defensively he is bad but offensively it's different) and i don't think he has high upside but i do think there is some upside there with his offense.

The Bad

With Doug it's obviously his defense and his defensive rpm like someone said above involves who Doug is out on the court but overall rpm involves involves a lot of other things as well. I'm not forgetting the fact he's not a good defensive player and doesn't have the strength nor lateral quickness to defend the post nor the perimeter but he tested out fairly well athletically at the combine so i wonder if a lot of this has to do with his reaction time cause i watch him time and time again defensively when he's guarding one on one he reacts so late at times but he lacks defensive iq. Doug is coach-able cause of the work he puts in with the coaches plus anybody can learn to be a better defender but for Doug it's not gonna happen overnight but this was actually encouraging looking at Doug's DBPM which decreased each year in Chicago again their negative but i don't expect Doug to be a good defender but passable at best OKC was a transition period now he has the summer to get a better grip on the team structure and chemistry.

14-15 CHI: -3.3
15-16 CHI: -2.8
16-17 CHI: -2.0
16-17 OKC: -2.9
16-17 TOT: -2.3

I'am intrigued of the idea to see Doug play the 4 which was his natural position i college (I think it was IDK) which he could be more comfortable with given he knows the ropes more at the 4 and he wouldn't be having to run all over the court to chase his defender.

To answer the question no i don't think Doug should start.

Thank you for that breakdown. Great insight to Mr. McBuckets. I thought it interesting that you would say he was too passive and just stood in the corner. Do we know if that was by Hoiberg's design or of Doug's own accord? Do we know that or are we just assuming it was Doug being passive?



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Hoiberg i give most of the blame cause of his inability to coach or find ways to use his players in ways that they can be productive and useful then for Doug i do give part of the blame cause he passes up shots a lot and doesn't move at all at times he has a habit of being passive considering he is a good mover without the ball so it could be him maybe not being confident or just lacking mentality at times. So IDK it's kind of a tricky question to answer cause i'm not 100% sure on who to blame but they both are apart of it.

[getrichordie]

Spoiler:

OK watching Doug for three years as a bulls fan i can tell you that he is more then just a spot-up shooter who is a much more versatile offensive player then really given credit and even athletically tho i can agree defensively he's all over the damn place. Now the biggest problem with Doug is he's damn inconsistent but you would see good stretches from him followed by a bad stretch but he always showed some flashes but let me start with the good.

The Good

One of Doug's biggest strengths is his off-ball movement and cutting he is probably if not one the best on the bulls in that category when he was in Chicago he picked his spots and caught his man off guard with cutting for easy layup's and hunting for his shots with his off-ball movement and even showed off ATH which i honestly didn't know he had. Doug gets the same "white guy" comparison which is white dude who just shoot's three's but he honestly is an okay athlete who moves fairly well on the court. To go along with that he has a decent post-up game that he can use to his advantage vs the smaller players and equal his size but it's something that we rarely used in Chicago which i felt it could've been an area he could of done well in.

Here are some highlight videos last year and this year showing all that again i know these don't cover the whole season as a whole but like i said I've seen him Chicago.

These are from 2016

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

showing some athleticism

Watch on YouTube

this from 2017

Watch on YouTube

all of these show some of Doug versatility if you look at others then the one i showed you will see more of this. This is when Doug plays well when he moves without the ball and is aggressive and isn't passive. This is what us bulls fans wanted to see more of consistently but he seemed passive at times and just stood in the corner that's when he doesn't play well.

Now i don't think he is a good player nor bad (defensively he is bad but offensively it's different) and i don't think he has high upside but i do think there is some upside there with his offense.

The Bad

With Doug it's obviously his defense and his defensive rpm like someone said above involves who Doug is out on the court but overall rpm involves involves a lot of other things as well. I'm not forgetting the fact he's not a good defensive player and doesn't have the strength nor lateral quickness to defend the post nor the perimeter but he tested out fairly well athletically at the combine so i wonder if a lot of this has to do with his reaction time cause i watch him time and time again defensively when he's guarding one on one he reacts so late at times but he lacks defensive iq. Doug is coach-able cause of the work he puts in with the coaches plus anybody can learn to be a better defender but for Doug it's not gonna happen overnight but this was actually encouraging looking at Doug's DBPM which decreased each year in Chicago again their negative but i don't expect Doug to be a good defender but passable at best OKC was a transition period now he has the summer to get a better grip on the team structure and chemistry.

14-15 CHI: -3.3
15-16 CHI: -2.8
16-17 CHI: -2.0
16-17 OKC: -2.9
16-17 TOT: -2.3

I'am intrigued of the idea to see Doug play the 4 which was his natural position i college (I think it was IDK) which he could be more comfortable with given he knows the ropes more at the 4 and he wouldn't be having to run all over the court to chase his defender.

To answer the question no i don't think Doug should start.

Thank you for that breakdown. Great insight to Mr. McBuckets. I thought it interesting that you would say he was too passive and just stood in the corner. Do we know if that was by Hoiberg's design or of Doug's own accord? Do we know that or are we just assuming it was Doug being passive?



Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Hoiberg i give most of the blame cause of his inability to coach or find ways to use his players in ways that they can be productive and useful then for Doug i do give part of the blame cause he passes up shots a lot and doesn't move at all at times he has a habit of being passive considering he is a good mover without the ball so it could be him maybe not being confident or just lacking mentality at times. So IDK it's kind of a tricky question to answer cause i'm not 100% sure on who to blame but they both are apart of it.

Hmmm, interesting. It's no secret that Chicago is a dumpster fire. How much do you think that environment affected him? He's been through some major changes. I believe Thibs was still the coach when he came in the league, correct? And then they changed offensive schemes under Hoiberg the next year. How much did he get buried in rotation with adding Wade? Did Zipser ever get minutes over Doug while he was there?

Ultimately, I just love McDermott's offensive upside next to Westbrook and I think he would do really well if given a chance. I think we can coach defense into him more easily than we can coach offense into Roberson. I like the idea of him starting at the 4 alongside Roberson if we re-sign Roberson and can't retain Gibson. I think that would be a high-flying offense if given a chance.


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[InTheSabonus]

He's Morrow all over again. Billy has absolutely no idea how to use shooters. He's take McBuckets out a couple of times because a defender stuck to him, and Billy couldn't figure out how to get McBuckets open. Billy doesn't know offball movement is a thing, and as long as he's our coach, guys like Morrow or Dougie aren't going to thrive.

With as bad as he is on D starting is probably out of the equation even at the best of times, but he should have a serious role off the bench. But all we'll see is him standing still in the corner, or probably even trying to post up. So I'm a bit apprehensive about his future.