Player of the Day: Andre Roberson

[slick_watts]

The offense wasn't 'fine' with him. It was, and has been the same problem we are seeing now. While the lineups have rated well in the regular season, particularly against non contenders, it doesn't change the fact they were iso heavy relying on superstars to make something out of nothing every night. It often stalled against good teams, both last year and in years prior. Last year Russ was amazing. He and KD were for years before that. But to look at ratings, and say they have been fine with him in, is an over reliance on stats and a flat out denial of the fact that there offense has been good simply because they have had superstars. This year the stars are not shooting well, particularly Westbrook, and the flaws in the team not having an actual offense, relying on stars to bail them out, is being further magnified. It will be until they have a better system, which is much harder to design with his massive limitations.

uh. 'now' is also the regular season, isn't it? and the offense has been bad. the offense was 'fine' last year with dre in the game both during the regular season and in the playoffs. the problem isn't what dre is doing, the problem is what westbrook is doing. you're acknowledging (i think) that westbrook has been bad. but you're blaming the problem on dre. that's a textbook definition of scapegoating.

i don't care how or why the offense has been good. all i know is that it was. and with the elite defense last year, in large part due to dre's presence, the starters were one of the best in the league. now they are not. not because of anything dre isn't doing (the defense is still elite). but you still want to blame him for some reason. wonder why.

[hardenASG13]

The offense wasn't 'fine' with him. It was, and has been the same problem we are seeing now. While the lineups have rated well in the regular season, particularly against non contenders, it doesn't change the fact they were iso heavy relying on superstars to make something out of nothing every night. It often stalled against good teams, both last year and in years prior. Last year Russ was amazing. He and KD were for years before that. But to look at ratings, and say they have been fine with him in, is an over reliance on stats and a flat out denial of the fact that there offense has been good simply because they have had superstars. This year the stars are not shooting well, particularly Westbrook, and the flaws in the team not having an actual offense, relying on stars to bail them out, is being further magnified. It will be until they have a better system, which is much harder to design with his massive limitations.

uh. 'now' is also the regular season, isn't it? and the offense has been bad. the offense was 'fine' last year with dre in the game both during the regular season and in the playoffs. the problem isn't what dre is doing, the problem is what westbrook is doing. you're acknowledging (i think) that westbrook has been bad. but you're blaming the problem on dre. that's a textbook definition of scapegoating.

i don't care how or why the offense has been good. all i know is that it was. and with the elite defense last year, in large part due to dre's presence, the starters were one of the best in the league. now they are not. not because of anything dre isn't doing (the defense is still elite). but you still want to blame him for some reason. wonder why.

We've had a breakthrough here. I think this sums up your views on basketball perfectly. The offense hasn't been good from a basketball sense, only a number sense. They have relied on iso ball and stars creating magic. It's not sustainable, and they have stalled for long stretches so many times during the past few years. It's been a problem masked by superstar performances, but a problem nonetheless. The numbers saying otherwise are a facade. You need to know how to analyze data, and think critically about it, not just read and post it, to see that though.

[slick_watts]

We've had a breakthrough here. I think this sums up your views on basketball perfectly. The offense hasn't been good from a basketball sense, only a number sense.

excuse me? isn't the point of an offense to score points? isn't the hallmark of an effective offense scoring points? what i meant by my statement is that it doesn't matter how the points are scored. what matters are results.

not sustainable? the offense has been fine with dre in the starters for years. it's been struggling for 15 games. what's changed? you know what's changed, but you don't want to admit it.

the structure of our offense is a different discussion. there are certainly better ways to utilize the players on our team the last two seasons.

i need to learn to analyze data? dude. lol. did you not three pages ago in this thread accuse me of being intellectually dishonest for contextualizing net rating? it was you or that atomic guy. i get some of you confused.

the fact is you have westbrook-oladido-roberson-gibson-adams at 109pp100. then you have westbrook-roberson-george-anthony-adams at 102pp100. can you spot the difference? enough excuses.

[sleestak33]

This game will truly show everything I've been saying about Roberson and it will be a continuation from last years 4 games with the Warriors where okc lost by an average of 20 points per game. In those 4 games Roberson had only 13 points, was 0-10 on 3s, 1-4 on free throws and defensively allowed kd to average 37 and Thompson had 34 in the last game. He clearly didn't even belong on the court. For you Roberson supporters out there watch specifically how the Warriors completely disregard him and use his defender to either clog the lane or double team which will completely disrupt any offensive flow and also watch all the times we don't pass to him when he's open or the times he passes up wide open shots that any remotely competent wing would make. I also predict that whoever he guards gets 30. We have an "unplayable" player against elite teams and his name isn't Kanter, it's Roberson and it's going to be ugly in this one.

[slick_watts]

does this require a new thread?

[Andre Roberstan]

Yeah, sleestak, I'm merging this one with the main Roberson thread. We don't need an extra thread.

[ThunderBolt]

Klay Thompson, 3-12 with 9 points. I’m not sure but I think 9<30.

[slick_watts]

This game will truly show everything I've been saying about Roberson and it will be a continuation from last years 4 games with the Warriors where okc lost by an average of 20 points per game. In those 4 games Roberson had only 13 points, was 0-10 on 3s, 1-4 on free throws and defensively allowed kd to average 37 and Thompson had 34 in the last game. He clearly didn't even belong on the court. For you Roberson supporters out there watch specifically how the Warriors completely disregard him and use his defender to either clog the lane or double team which will completely disrupt any offensive flow and also watch all the times we don't pass to him when he's open or the times he passes up wide open shots that any remotely competent wing would make. I also predict that whoever he guards gets 30. We have an "unplayable" player against elite teams and his name isn't Kanter, it's Roberson and it's going to be ugly in this one.

quoting just in case.

[Pillendreher]

This game will truly show everything I've been saying about Roberson and it will be a continuation from last years 4 games with the Warriors where okc lost by an average of 20 points per game. In those 4 games Roberson had only 13 points, was 0-10 on 3s, 1-4 on free throws and defensively allowed kd to average 37 and Thompson had 34 in the last game. He clearly didn't even belong on the court. For you Roberson supporters out there watch specifically how the Warriors completely disregard him and use his defender to either clog the lane or double team which will completely disrupt any offensive flow and also watch all the times we don't pass to him when he's open or the times he passes up wide open shots that any remotely competent wing would make. I also predict that whoever he guards gets 30. We have an "unplayable" player against elite teams and his name isn't Kanter, it's Roberson and it's going to be ugly in this one.

quoting just in case.

102.2 ORtG
85.1 DRtG
17.2 NetRtG

with Dre on the floor.

113.9 ORtG
90.4 DRtG
23.4 NetRtG

with Dre on the floor quarters 1 through 3 before the Warriors punted the game.

[Pillendreher]

DRtG among starters who play at least 25 mpg:

1st: Roberson 95.2 DRtG
2nd: Nurkic 99.4 DRtG
3rd: Brown 99.5 DRtG
4th: Draymond Green 99.6 DRtG
(5th: Taytum 99.7 DRtG)
6th: Danny Green 99.8 DRtG
7th: Embiid 99.8

Up to 30th in RPM among SGs at -0.42. +2.3 DRPM, 1st among SGs, 17th overall (2nd for non-bigmen). BPM up to +1.1, DBPM +3.1 which is good for 7th overall for starters.

His offensive shortcomings are clearly there, but my god he is so good defensively.

[slick_watts]

every year dre starts off wonky on rpm but gradually rises as his drpm starts to build up and his defensive contributions separate out. less than a week ago bondom was lamenting that abrines was ahead of him and now dre's ahead by more than half a point. the separation will continue. he's been in the top 15-ish among sg the last couple years and probably will be again.

[slick_watts]

individual pp100 allowed on / off



that's something.

[RalphSampsonJr]

individual pp100 allowed on / off



that's something.

Youre wasting your time. Guys who cant see what Roberson does will never understand his value. its a very shallow way of looking at a game and i feel sorry for them.
They dont watch the amount of distance he moves in such a short span of time. His ability to recover and help others who have found themselves out of position. the underrated rebounding that seems to never get brought up. the fact that he is one of the top 5 on ball defenders in the game.
The only thing people see is the fact that he cant shoot and then create conclusions from that about the team as a whole.

[alessandrux]

Sometimes I just wish that Roberson has the same amount of consciousness (or 'unconsciousness') that other guys have and just take every (at least open) shot he gets.
I think that would help him tremendously, he should get better/in rhythm/more secure to shoot and would also open up the floor for our other players (because less attention is hardly possible).

But even if he won't improve as a shooter his defense is so outstanding that he is even then a pretty good player.

[spearsy23]

individual pp100 allowed on / off



that's something.

When do we start asking if Westbrook is actually having a good year defensively?

[slick_watts]

individual pp100 allowed on / off



that's something.

When do we start asking if Westbrook is actually having a good year defensively?

relative to past years he may be!

the distribution on this chart seems to correlate strongly with % of roberson's minutes a teammate is present for. westbrook spends by far the most time with dre, as do the rest of the starters. abrines, patterson, grant, ferguson and felton play the least.

dre also plays the highest % of his minutes with the starters (george and adams, particularly), so there's some overlap here. still a striking chart.

also may reveal some of huestis' value since he plays barely any minutes with dre and still manages to rank well.

[Pillendreher]

individual pp100 allowed on / off



that's something.

When do we start asking if Westbrook is actually having a good year defensively?

relative to past years he may be!

the distribution on this chart seems to correlate strongly with % of roberson's minutes a teammate is present for. westbrook spends by far the most time with dre, as do the rest of the starters. abrines, patterson, grant, ferguson and felton play the least.

dre also plays the highest % of his minutes with the starters (george and adams, particularly), so there's some overlap here. still a striking chart.

also may reveal some of huestis' value since he plays barely any minutes with dre and still manages to rank well.

Roberson with Russ: 655 minutes, 564 Anthony, 507 Adams, 491 George - 102.3 DRtG
Roberson without Russ: 61 minutes - 96.7 DRtG

[sleestak33]

You guys crack me up. In the last 2 games Roberson has missed 4 layups including one that would have won a game in OT (he also airballed a wide open 3 pointer by a foot) yet you still talk about his defense. Any other player in the NBA misses that wide open layup to win the game they get benched...period. That's just absolutely embarrassing to have a player in the starting lineup of an NBA team capable of such a thing. The same defense that rookie Donovan Mitchell scorched for 31 points. You keep quoting all these stats but when I watch the games the elite and good scorers have absolutely no trouble whatsoever scoring on him repeatedly and the advantage teams are getting from using his defender as a free safety when he's out there allowing them to play 5 against 4 is killing their offense. You keep supporting the worst offensive wing in history though...it's really working out well for this team with 3 all stars and a losing record.

[Pillendreher]

In the last 2 games Roberson has missed 4 layups including one that would have won a game in OT (he also airballed a wide open 3 pointer by a foot) yet you still talk about his defense. Any other player in the NBA misses that wide open layup to win the game they get benched...period. That's just absolutely embarrassing to have a player in the starting lineup of an NBA team capable of such a thing.

Andre Roberson is shooting 59.6 % on layups this season. Among players with at least 50 layup attempts this season, that's 58/163 and 2nd best on the Thunder. This narrative you're trying to create is - once again - false.

The same defense that rookie Donovan Mitchell scorched for 31 points. You keep quoting all these stats but when I watch the games the elite and good scorers have absolutely no trouble whatsoever scoring on him repeatedly

Starters, at least 25 mpg, at least 25 games played:



So with all these guys completely going off on Roberson the rest of the team must be beyond terrible offensively every time. Curious.

Btw: If he keeps this up, our defense with him on the floor will be on the same level as the 07-08 Celtics, the 15-16 Spurs or the 12-13 Grizzlies with their best defenders on the floor.

and the advantage teams are getting from using his defender as a free safety when he's out there allowing them to play 5 against 4 is killing their offense. You keep supporting the worst offensive wing in history though...it's really working out well for this team with 3 all stars and a losing record.

So we had two All-Stars in 15/16 and our offense was the 2nd best in the league. Now we have three All-Stars and our offense ranks 19th. That somehow doesn't track given that that the only difference between those squads is the amount of All-Stars since Roberson and Adams are still starting for us.

Please, do keep embarassing yourself.

[slick_watts]

You keep quoting all these stats but when I watch the games