Billy Donovan

[Rotten Apple]

I'm in line with slick here. Melo's certainly a better player than Anderson, and at one time was great. He's not who he used to be, and at this point Serge is the better player. But I'm also not convinced Melo won't be better in a new environment, which I personally think he very well may be.

Serge Ibaka is not nor ever was better than Carmelo Anthony.

Yes he is. Carmelo currently is not who he used to be. Sorry, but he's not. You could ask this on a multitude of different boards and I'd bet get the same reply.

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

You can ask every board you want, it won't change the fact that Melo is, was and will always be better than Serge. Ibaka is a good player but he's not in Melo's class.

[bondom34]

Serge Ibaka is not nor ever was better than Carmelo Anthony.

Yes he is. Carmelo currently is not who he used to be. Sorry, but he's not. You could ask this on a multitude of different boards and I'd bet get the same reply.

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

You can ask every board you want, it won't change the fact that Melo is, was and will always be better than Serge. Ibaka is a good player but he's not in Melo's class.

Except he doesn't. And it is a way of phrasing it to say he's not. Ibaka's net impact is much greater due to defense. I'll ask you if you believe what you're saying to ask on the player comparisons board.

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

[Pillendreher]

Let's keep it real on Ibaka though: He peaked 2012-2014 and his impact has gone downhill since then. He just had the worst DBPM of his career. 30 Power Forwards had a higher DRPM than him. Only 33 players added less value on the defensive side of the ball than him (TPA stats).

The days of Ibaka as an elite defender are long gone.

[Pillendreher]

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

That's an unfair comparison. Presti got the better of his inside agent. Melo's value was crap because of his attitude, his NTC and his salary. Melo playing well enough on a championship level team with a reasonable salary and at least one year left on his contract would have netted more than the trash we gave up. This was a special situation.

[bondom34]

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

That's an unfair comparison. Presti got the better of his inside agent. Melo's value was crap because of his attitude, his NTC and his salary. Melo playing well enough on a championship level team with a reasonable salary and at least one year left on his contract would have netted more than the trash we gave up. This was a special situation.

Hennigan got more for Serge too. And agree Serge regressed, but he's still better.

[Pillendreher]

And agree Serge regressed, but he's still better.

Serge Ibaka is not better than Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is a much, much more complete player offensively than Ibaka (all Ibaka can do on offense is take jumpers and do putbacks; everything else just overwhelms him) and Ibaka's defensive impact has been (compared to what he offered in earlier years) quite underwhelming for a few years now.

Yes, he's a better defender than Anthony. Yes, Donovan wanting to funnel things to the basket would work better with Ibaka than with Anthony. But at this point, I'd rather have another guy on offense who can make and create shots.

Also, this comparison is just wack. Ibaka was never more than a 3rd/4th option on offense and a role player generally. Anthony was the main guy for his teams for years. If you want to compare him with other players, go look at other first options, not a guy who's known for blocking a ton of shots earlier in his career.

[bondom34]

And agree Serge regressed, but he's still better.

Serge Ibaka is not better than Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is a much, much more complete player offensively than Ibaka (all Ibaka can do on offense is take jumpers and do putbacks; everything else just overwhelms him) and Ibaka's defensive impact has been (compared to what he offered in earlier years) quite underwhelming for a few years now.

Yes, he's a better defender than Anthony. Yes, Donovan wanting to funnel things to the basket would work better with Ibaka than with Anthony. But at this point, I'd rather have another guy on offense who can make and create shots.

Also, this comparison is just wack. Ibaka was never more than a 3rd/4th option on offense and a role player generally. Anthony was the main guy for his teams for years. If you want to compare him with other players, go look at other first options, not a guy who's known for blocking a ton of shots earlier in his career.

Except "complete" includes defense. Melo isn't remotely close defensively to 2017 Serge. He isn't a terribly willing passer, not a rim protector, and not a help side defender. If you're arguing Melo's better offensively yes I agree. But Enes was better than Adams offensively too, and that's not the entire game.

[Pillendreher]

Except "complete" includes defense.

I explicitly said 'offensively'.

Melo isn't remotely close defensively to 2017 Serge.

The gap is there, but it isn't that huge. Serge Ibaka hasn't been that good defensively in years.

He isn't a terribly willing passer

Yes, but I thought he made some nice passes in preseason. He will never be guy known for his passing tho. But at least he is able of passing.

not a rim protector, and not a help side defender.

Nobody argued that. I absolutely agree that Melo will not a great job defensively as a 4 within the team. I think he can hold his own individually (if he gives effort), but within the team, Roberson will have to step up and cover some of Anthony's mistakes.

If you're arguing Melo's better offensively yes I agree. But Enes was better than Adams offensively too, and that's not the entire game.

He was, but Kanter was alsothe worst defensive Center in the league for years. Anthony's defense may be below-average (I think it is; we'll see if he will give more effort on that end now that he doesn't have to cary his team), but he was never Kanter level bad. You can scheme around Anthony; you can't scheme around your Center.

The thing about Anthony in my opinion is: How much of his performance for the Knicks was the Knicks as an organization? How much was his role there? How much was him really regressing? How much was him not giving a ****?
Over the last 5 seasons, 23 players took at least 5000 shots. Out of those 23, Anthony has the 9th best OBPM at +3.5. Over the last 3 seasons, 27 players have taken at least 3000 shots. Out of those 27, Anthony has the 16th best OBPM.
Of course there have been better volume scorers than him over the same timeframe. But I think his offensive game is (still) there. The bigger question is: What will he bring to the Thunder? Will he force the team to take the ball out of Westbrook's hands so that he can dance around in the post and take bad shots? Will he be willing to take on a lesser role and take better shots with better talent around him?

I don't think you can deny that he's (still) a (very?) capable scorer. His impact on this team will be determined by his mindset tho. If he is willing to sacrifice for the good of the team, he could surprise some people. But if he just wants to continue where he left off in New York, we will have problems.

To bring this back to the him vs Serge argument: How good Anthony will be is dependent on his role and what he does with that. As of right now, it's way too early to tell imo. He's clearly way better than Serge offensively, but that has to also translate on the court.

[M2J]

Yes he is. Carmelo currently is not who he used to be. Sorry, but he's not. You could ask this on a multitude of different boards and I'd bet get the same reply.

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

You can ask every board you want, it won't change the fact that Melo is, was and will always be better than Serge. Ibaka is a good player but he's not in Melo's class.

Except he doesn't. And it is a way of phrasing it to say he's not. Ibaka's net impact is much greater due to defense. I'll ask you if you believe what you're saying to ask on the player comparisons board.

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

I'm trying to stay out of the agenda driven Okc lbaka nostalgic driven drivel or Melo ignorance, but Melo went for what he did because he was powerful enough to be able control where he went and what for. He was able to get rid of a Phil, and force his way to a contender. He wouldn't release his NTC if they gave away too much. That's something a should be in his prime Ibaka could never get from any team, so he'll keep bouncing around the league to whomever would take him.

Melo could get that, because EVERY team in the league was trying to offer him whatever he wanted a few years back. I'll let that fact speak for itself.

[slick_watts]

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

have you watched enough raptors, magic, and thunder games the past few seasons to have an informed opinion on serge ibaka? by your own admission, you have not watched a lot of andre roberson-- so it would puzzle me if you have watched enough ibaka to meet your own scouting criteria.

[bondom34]

[
Melo could get that, because EVERY team in the league was trying to offer him whatever he wanted a few years back. I'll let that fact speak for itself.

No. You're right. A few years back. Notpt today

[bondom34]

Except "complete" includes defense.

I explicitly said 'offensively'.

Melo isn't remotely close defensively to 2017 Serge.

The gap is there, but it isn't that huge. Serge Ibaka hasn't been that good defensively in years.

He isn't a terribly willing passer

Yes, but I thought he made some nice passes in preseason. He will never be guy known for his passing tho. But at least he is able of passing.

not a rim protector, and not a help side defender.

Nobody argued that. I absolutely agree that Melo will not a great job defensively as a 4 within the team. I think he can hold his own individually (if he gives effort), but within the team, Roberson will have to step up and cover some of Anthony's mistakes.

If you're arguing Melo's better offensively yes I agree. But Enes was better than Adams offensively too, and that's not the entire game.

He was, but Kanter was alsothe worst defensive Center in the league for years. Anthony's defense may be below-average (I think it is; we'll see if he will give more effort on that end now that he doesn't have to cary his team), but he was never Kanter level bad. You can scheme around Anthony; you can't scheme around your Center.

The thing about Anthony in my opinion is: How much of his performance for the Knicks was the Knicks as an organization? How much was his role there? How much was him really regressing? How much was him not giving a ****?
Over the last 5 seasons, 23 players took at least 5000 shots. Out of those 23, Anthony has the 9th best OBPM at +3.5. Over the last 3 seasons, 27 players have taken at least 3000 shots. Out of those 27, Anthony has the 16th best OBPM.
Of course there have been better volume scorers than him over the same timeframe. But I think his offensive game is (still) there. The bigger question is: What will he bring to the Thunder? Will he force the team to take the ball out of Westbrook's hands so that he can dance around in the post and take bad shots? Will he be willing to take on a lesser role and take better shots with better talent around him?

I don't think you can deny that he's (still) a (very?) capable scorer. His impact on this team will be determined by his mindset tho. If he is willing to sacrifice for the good of the team, he could surprise some people. But if he just wants to continue where he left off in New York, we will have problems.

To bring this back to the him vs Serge argument: How good Anthony will be is dependent on his role and what he does with that. As of right now, it's way too early to tell imo. He's clearly way better than Serge offensively, but that has to also translate on the court.

I don't knew why you went through all thia to say hes better on offense when I agree. Bit better on offense isn't better player. And he wasn't last year.

[Pillendreher]

Except "complete" includes defense.

I explicitly said 'offensively'.

Melo isn't remotely close defensively to 2017 Serge.

The gap is there, but it isn't that huge. Serge Ibaka hasn't been that good defensively in years.

He isn't a terribly willing passer

Yes, but I thought he made some nice passes in preseason. He will never be guy known for his passing tho. But at least he is able of passing.

not a rim protector, and not a help side defender.

Nobody argued that. I absolutely agree that Melo will not a great job defensively as a 4 within the team. I think he can hold his own individually (if he gives effort), but within the team, Roberson will have to step up and cover some of Anthony's mistakes.

If you're arguing Melo's better offensively yes I agree. But Enes was better than Adams offensively too, and that's not the entire game.

He was, but Kanter was alsothe worst defensive Center in the league for years. Anthony's defense may be below-average (I think it is; we'll see if he will give more effort on that end now that he doesn't have to cary his team), but he was never Kanter level bad. You can scheme around Anthony; you can't scheme around your Center.

The thing about Anthony in my opinion is: How much of his performance for the Knicks was the Knicks as an organization? How much was his role there? How much was him really regressing? How much was him not giving a ****?
Over the last 5 seasons, 23 players took at least 5000 shots. Out of those 23, Anthony has the 9th best OBPM at +3.5. Over the last 3 seasons, 27 players have taken at least 3000 shots. Out of those 27, Anthony has the 16th best OBPM.
Of course there have been better volume scorers than him over the same timeframe. But I think his offensive game is (still) there. The bigger question is: What will he bring to the Thunder? Will he force the team to take the ball out of Westbrook's hands so that he can dance around in the post and take bad shots? Will he be willing to take on a lesser role and take better shots with better talent around him?

I don't think you can deny that he's (still) a (very?) capable scorer. His impact on this team will be determined by his mindset tho. If he is willing to sacrifice for the good of the team, he could surprise some people. But if he just wants to continue where he left off in New York, we will have problems.

To bring this back to the him vs Serge argument: How good Anthony will be is dependent on his role and what he does with that. As of right now, it's way too early to tell imo. He's clearly way better than Serge offensively, but that has to also translate on the court.

I don't knew why you went through all thia to say hes better on offense when I agree. Bit better on offense isn't better player. And he wasn't last year.

He's not a 'bit better' on offense. He's vastly better. This is not even a debate. All Serge can do at this point is make jumpers. 82 % of his FGA were jumpers. He can't pass, he can't dribble. He takes jumpers, that's it.

[bondom34]

I explicitly said 'offensively'.



The gap is there, but it isn't that huge. Serge Ibaka hasn't been that good defensively in years.



Yes, but I thought he made some nice passes in preseason. He will never be guy known for his passing tho. But at least he is able of passing.



Nobody argued that. I absolutely agree that Melo will not a great job defensively as a 4 within the team. I think he can hold his own individually (if he gives effort), but within the team, Roberson will have to step up and cover some of Anthony's mistakes.



He was, but Kanter was alsothe worst defensive Center in the league for years. Anthony's defense may be below-average (I think it is; we'll see if he will give more effort on that end now that he doesn't have to cary his team), but he was never Kanter level bad. You can scheme around Anthony; you can't scheme around your Center.

The thing about Anthony in my opinion is: How much of his performance for the Knicks was the Knicks as an organization? How much was his role there? How much was him really regressing? How much was him not giving a ****?
Over the last 5 seasons, 23 players took at least 5000 shots. Out of those 23, Anthony has the 9th best OBPM at +3.5. Over the last 3 seasons, 27 players have taken at least 3000 shots. Out of those 27, Anthony has the 16th best OBPM.
Of course there have been better volume scorers than him over the same timeframe. But I think his offensive game is (still) there. The bigger question is: What will he bring to the Thunder? Will he force the team to take the ball out of Westbrook's hands so that he can dance around in the post and take bad shots? Will he be willing to take on a lesser role and take better shots with better talent around him?

I don't think you can deny that he's (still) a (very?) capable scorer. His impact on this team will be determined by his mindset tho. If he is willing to sacrifice for the good of the team, he could surprise some people. But if he just wants to continue where he left off in New York, we will have problems.

To bring this back to the him vs Serge argument: How good Anthony will be is dependent on his role and what he does with that. As of right now, it's way too early to tell imo. He's clearly way better than Serge offensively, but that has to also translate on the court.

I don't knew why you went through all thia to say hes better on offense when I agree. Bit better on offense isn't better player. And he wasn't last year.

He's not a 'bit better' on offense. He's vastly better. This is not even a debate. All Serge can do at this point is make jumpers. 82 % of his FGA were jumpers. He can't pass, he can't dribble. He takes jumpers, that's it.

Sorrynthat was a typo on mobile. Supposed to say "but".

[Pillendreher]

I don't knew why you went through all thia to say hes better on offense when I agree. Bit better on offense isn't better player. And he wasn't last year.

He's not a 'bit better' on offense. He's vastly better. This is not even a debate. All Serge can do at this point is make jumpers. 82 % of his FGA were jumpers. He can't pass, he can't dribble. He takes jumpers, that's it.

Sorrynthat was a typo on mobile. Supposed to say "but".

I was ready to put you on my foe list right there

[bondom34]

He's not a 'bit better' on offense. He's vastly better. This is not even a debate. All Serge can do at this point is make jumpers. 82 % of his FGA were jumpers. He can't pass, he can't dribble. He takes jumpers, that's it.

Sorrynthat was a typo on mobile. Supposed to say "but".

I was ready to put you on my foe list right there

I hate typing on my phone lol

[Rotten Apple]

Yes he is. Carmelo currently is not who he used to be. Sorry, but he's not. You could ask this on a multitude of different boards and I'd bet get the same reply.

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

You can ask every board you want, it won't change the fact that Melo is, was and will always be better than Serge. Ibaka is a good player but he's not in Melo's class.

Except he doesn't. And it is a way of phrasing it to say he's not. Ibaka's net impact is much greater due to defense. I'll ask you if you believe what you're saying to ask on the player comparisons board.

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

Melo had a NTC along with Phil diminishing a potential return.

You saying Melo doesn't have "that much" ability tells me everything I need to know about your opinion of him.

Ibaka never had a greater impact, also defense is the most overrated thing ever these days. In that case a guy like Andre Roberson is more valuable than a guy like Kyrie Irving(another player people say doesn't play D or do much else)

Individual defense is overrated because team defense is much more important. But on RealGM guys like Melo, Harden, Irving, Westbrook don't get the same benefit of doubt regarding their defense.

Tell Ibaka to carry an offense night in and night out and I bet you he couldn't. I don't care how many shots he blocks(another overrated stat).

Point is Ibaka aint Melo, never was, never will be.

[bondom34]

Why are you apologizing? Anyway Ibaka is not better, Melo has a more complete game, especially as a 4 where his versatility offensively and defensive impact are highlighted.

You can ask every board you want, it won't change the fact that Melo is, was and will always be better than Serge. Ibaka is a good player but he's not in Melo's class.

Except he doesn't. And it is a way of phrasing it to say he's not. Ibaka's net impact is much greater due to defense. I'll ask you if you believe what you're saying to ask on the player comparisons board.

Look at it this way. Ibaka got more in a trade, twice than Melo did. Melo doesn't have that much ability anymore.

Melo had a NTC along with Phil diminishing a potential return.

You saying Melo doesn't have "that much" ability tells me everything I need to know about your opinion of him.

Ibaka never had a greater impact, also defense is the most overrated thing ever these days. In that case a guy like Andre Roberson is more valuable than a guy like Kyrie Irving(another player people say doesn't play D or do much else)

Individual defense is overrated because team defense is much more important. But on RealGM guys like Melo, Harden, Irving, Westbrook don't get the same benefit of doubt regarding their defense.

Tell Ibaka to carry an offense night in and night out and I bet you he couldn't. I don't care how many shots he blocks(another overrated stat).

Point is Ibaka aint Melo, never was, never will be.

No he isn't. Hes better.

Offense isn't all of basketball. Its why Enes Kanter isn't as good as Steven Adams.

[spearsy23]

The original contention. Was that 2016 Serge > 2018 Melo. I stand by that, but Serge today isn't better than Melo and peak v peak isn't either.

[bondom34]

It is close currently. I still take Serge personally. But 16 Serge is by far better than 18 Melo.