12/9 - POSTGAME | Oklahoma City Thunder (102) - (101) Memphis Grizzlies

[Dadouv47]

We are playing so bad that I wasn't even happy to win. Just relieved.

Seriously, we are worse than when season started.

[RalphSampsonJr]

So yeah....

This team just has no discipline. It really is amazing that they are able to struggle at almost anything at any given time. Adams and Robes are about the only guys who constantly do what they're supposed to do. Defensively, they're in danger of having to guard 3 guys at once because their teammates don't stick with their man. Offensively, they're doing their best of scoring efficiently.
Adams has been our best player this season and it's honestly not that close. He's leading the team in TS% and WS/48 by a huge margin. Our offense last night only got better once we started including him.

Russ is just beyond trash. Somedboy needs to tell him to cut this **** out. It's embarassing and it is killing us. And he's not just doing stuff on offense - his undisciplined behaviour on defense is hurting us as well. He stole a rebound from Patterson by flying into him which lead to a Memphis score iirc. We can't have that. He was too lazy to guard the Grizzlies' scrubs down the stretch and we had him against Gasol and Adams out on the wing. Can't have that either.

Over the last two, Russ and Melo have combined for 14/39 from midrange and 5/28 from 3. We have attempted a total of 5 corner 3s.

Billy clearly doesn't have control over this team. And he obviously has lost his mind. We ran isolations for **** Kyle Singler two games in a row. It's like he is always trying to find new ways to get fired, but Presti just won't bite.

I agree with everything apart from the Singler bit. I am honestly glad to just see Billy try change things up and get other guys going.
I know I know why Singler?! at least he is attempting other things as the original recipe isnt working.
I think it was good to see the team really try get Abrines in space. He is normally open with his hands waving in the air while Melo/PG/Russ do a fake then throw up a shot while their defender is even more in their face.
I think Billy really is trying to change things up. He must surely be getting sick of Russ try take over games and not do well.

Russ looks completely out of control though. Like you say he is playing awful yet seems to be yelling at everyone like they are the ones shooting 8% from deep. Its obvios Billy has lost this team. Russ is doing what he wants and Melo is not even joining the team on timeouts.
Surely Sam can see this

[sleestak33]

Am I hallucinating or did I just watch Singler play 2 games in a row? Is this earth? Look it's bad enough they keep starting Roberson (42 minutes...2 points in this one) but for Pete's sake I thought they were finally completely done with the man-bun. I have no idea what in the world Donovan is trying to do with these bizarre rotations.

[Old Man Game]

I'm childish and giggle every time I hear the youngest called "Gelo".

Could we one day have a league where Melo plays Jell-O?

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It's a G like in gif.
And no, he has no shot at the nba. Wouldn't even be talked about if his last name was different.




(Also, I pronounce gif jif, but I love this joke too much.)

I'm sure Lavar will see the value in changing it to Jell-O once he realizes he can have "Jello Ball sponsored by the Jell-O company" playing in the Chinese Basketball Association.

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[Old Man Game]

Am I hallucinating or did I just watch Singler play 2 games in a row? Is this earth? Look it's bad enough they keep starting Roberson (42 minutes...2 points in this one) but for Pete's sake I thought they were finally completely done with the man-bun. I have no idea what in the world Donovan is trying to do with these bizarre rotations.

Billy can't help himself. For some reason he deeply likes and respects Kyle and any time he has half an excuse to play him he does.

[getrichordie]

So yeah....

This team just has no discipline. It really is amazing that they are able to struggle at almost anything at any given time. Adams and Robes are about the only guys who constantly do what they're supposed to do. Defensively, they're in danger of having to guard 3 guys at once because their teammates don't stick with their man. Offensively, they're doing their best of scoring efficiently.
Adams has been our best player this season and it's honestly not that close. He's leading the team in TS% and WS/48 by a huge margin. Our offense last night only got better once we started including him.

Russ is just beyond trash. Somedboy needs to tell him to cut this **** out. It's embarassing and it is killing us. And he's not just doing stuff on offense - his undisciplined behaviour on defense is hurting us as well. He stole a rebound from Patterson by flying into him which lead to a Memphis score iirc. We can't have that. He was too lazy to guard the Grizzlies' scrubs down the stretch and we had him against Gasol and Adams out on the wing. Can't have that either.

Over the last two, Russ and Melo have combined for 14/39 from midrange and 5/28 from 3. We have attempted a total of 5 corner 3s.

Billy clearly doesn't have control over this team. And he obviously has lost his mind. We ran isolations for **** Kyle Singler two games in a row. It's like he is always trying to find new ways to get fired, but Presti just won't bite.

I agree with everything apart from the Singler bit. I am honestly glad to just see Billy try change things up and get other guys going.
I know I know why Singler?! at least he is attempting other things as the original recipe isnt working.
I think it was good to see the team really try get Abrines in space. He is normally open with his hands waving in the air while Melo/PG/Russ do a fake then throw up a shot while their defender is even more in their face.
I think Billy really is trying to change things up. He must surely be getting sick of Russ try take over games and not do well.

Russ looks completely out of control though. Like you say he is playing awful yet seems to be yelling at everyone like they are the ones shooting 8% from deep. Its obvios Billy has lost this team. Russ is doing what he wants and Melo is not even joining the team on timeouts.
Surely Sam can see this

In a lot of ways, this is on Presti, not Donovan.

Before this season, the offense was designed around Russ’ strengths which was more or less run and gun. Russ has never had an outstanding BBIQ. He’s more like an incredibly athletic wide receiver in the NFL who is really fast, can jump high but has trouble learning plays and doesn’t work on his route-running technique.

So Presti brings in Melo, George, Felton, Patterson. I would say that George is the only one who could really succeed in playing that way. You have to slow down the offense to utilize these guys but the trouble is it doesn’t play to Westbrook’s natural strengths.

Not sure why one wouldn’t think that an offense can get stagnant if your primary ball-handler and face of the franchise isn’t leading by example. That’s just me, though. It makes sense. Imagine what the Celtics look like if Kyrie doesn’t cut and isn’t a good shooter. Imagine what the Warriors look like if Curry just stands back and doesn’t move off-ball. What if James Harden did that? These teams would find it much more difficult to generate offense if their primary ball handler isn’t showing any action or threat to be open.

Why is that so hard to understand?


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[Pillendreher]

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because it's about much more than Russ not running around like a maniac after he gives up the ball. He has never done that and it has never lead to this kind of ridiculously terrible offensive output.

The roster is not the problem.

[getrichordie]

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because it's about much more than Russ not running around like a maniac after he gives up the ball. He has never done that and it has never lead to this kind of ridiculously terrible offensive output.

The roster is not the problem.

So what is the problem? I mean you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to go back to how we were playing last year where Oladipo was under-utilized because Westbrook has the ball in his hands so much?


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[RalphSampsonJr]

So yeah....

This team just has no discipline. It really is amazing that they are able to struggle at almost anything at any given time. Adams and Robes are about the only guys who constantly do what they're supposed to do. Defensively, they're in danger of having to guard 3 guys at once because their teammates don't stick with their man. Offensively, they're doing their best of scoring efficiently.
Adams has been our best player this season and it's honestly not that close. He's leading the team in TS% and WS/48 by a huge margin. Our offense last night only got better once we started including him.

Russ is just beyond trash. Somedboy needs to tell him to cut this **** out. It's embarassing and it is killing us. And he's not just doing stuff on offense - his undisciplined behaviour on defense is hurting us as well. He stole a rebound from Patterson by flying into him which lead to a Memphis score iirc. We can't have that. He was too lazy to guard the Grizzlies' scrubs down the stretch and we had him against Gasol and Adams out on the wing. Can't have that either.

Over the last two, Russ and Melo have combined for 14/39 from midrange and 5/28 from 3. We have attempted a total of 5 corner 3s.

Billy clearly doesn't have control over this team. And he obviously has lost his mind. We ran isolations for **** Kyle Singler two games in a row. It's like he is always trying to find new ways to get fired, but Presti just won't bite.

I agree with everything apart from the Singler bit. I am honestly glad to just see Billy try change things up and get other guys going.
I know I know why Singler?! at least he is attempting other things as the original recipe isnt working.
I think it was good to see the team really try get Abrines in space. He is normally open with his hands waving in the air while Melo/PG/Russ do a fake then throw up a shot while their defender is even more in their face.
I think Billy really is trying to change things up. He must surely be getting sick of Russ try take over games and not do well.

Russ looks completely out of control though. Like you say he is playing awful yet seems to be yelling at everyone like they are the ones shooting 8% from deep. Its obvios Billy has lost this team. Russ is doing what he wants and Melo is not even joining the team on timeouts.
Surely Sam can see this

In a lot of ways, this is on Presti, not Donovan.

Before this season, the offense was designed around Russ’ strengths which was more or less run and gun. Russ has never had an outstanding BBIQ. He’s more like an incredibly athletic wide receiver in the NFL who is really fast, can jump high but has trouble learning plays and doesn’t work on his route-running technique.

So Presti brings in Melo, George, Felton, Patterson. I would say that George is the only one who could really succeed in playing that way. You have to slow down the offense to utilize these guys but the trouble is it doesn’t play to Westbrook’s natural strengths.

Not sure why one wouldn’t think that an offense can get stagnant if your primary ball-handler and face of the franchise isn’t leading by example. That’s just me, though. It makes sense. Imagine what the Celtics look like if Kyrie doesn’t cut and isn’t a good shooter. Imagine what the Warriors look like if Curry just stands back and doesn’t move off-ball. What if James Harden did that? These teams would find it much more difficult to generate offense if their primary ball handler isn’t showing any action or threat to be open.

Why is that so hard to understand?

I didnt like the Melo trade when it happened but Kanters contract was bad and Dougie Mac wasnt doing anything with his limited minutes so i can see why it was done.
What is the answer to what is happening then? If so many players struggle to play with Russ and his style what is one to do?
Sam added two allstars to prove a point to Russ that they are all in on him. I agree that it was easy to predict that Melos style wouldnt suit Westbrooks but if Melo is getting dangled in front of you what is a GM to do?!
Keep Kanter who cant defend anyone on 18 mil or get a hall of famer for 7 mil more?

Hindsight is 20/20. its easy to sit there and say "Sams dumb for adding players as they find it hard to play with Russ".
What, in your opinion is the answer to the thunders troubles? not finally add a back up PG? (who is playing well) not add a big that spaces the floor? not add one of the purest scorers the game has ever seen for a big you couldnt play in the playoffs?

Sam has done everything he could. The whole NBA fan base praised him before the season started.
Sabonis, Victor, Dion, Lamb and Harden have all become better players once leaving OKC. something tells me its not the GM..


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[Pillendreher]

Why is that so hard to understand?

Because it's about much more than Russ not running around like a maniac after he gives up the ball. He has never done that and it has never lead to this kind of ridiculously terrible offensive output.

The roster is not the problem.

So what is the problem? I mean you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to go back to how we were playing last year where Oladipo was under-utilized because Westbrook has the ball in his hands so much?

The problem is Westbrook being a > 30 USG% / < 50 TS% player. This off the ball stuff is insignificant. You're never gonna turn him into an off-ball player/spot up shooter. He does his damage at the ball. And as long as he's scoring at a significantly worse rate compared to his last 3 seasons, things aren't gonna change.

When a guy is 2nd in touches per game and 3rd in USG% while being horribly inefficient, it kills your offense. His individual ORtG dropped by 10. His OBPM dropped by 7. His ORPM dropped by more than 3. I think it's fair to say his current offensive performance is costing us ~5 pp100p offensively which is the difference between being a Top 10 Offense and a Bottom 10 Offense.

[getrichordie]

Because it's about much more than Russ not running around like a maniac after he gives up the ball. He has never done that and it has never lead to this kind of ridiculously terrible offensive output.

The roster is not the problem.

So what is the problem? I mean you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Do you want to go back to how we were playing last year where Oladipo was under-utilized because Westbrook has the ball in his hands so much?

The problem is Westbrook being a > 30 USG% / < 50 TS% player. This off the ball stuff is insignificant. You're never gonna turn him into an off-ball player/spot up shooter. He does his damage at the ball. And as long as he's scoring at a significantly worse rate compared to his last 3 seasons, things aren't gonna change.

When a guy is 2nd in touches per game and 3rd in USG% while being horribly inefficient, it kills your offense. His individual ORtG dropped by 10. His OBPM dropped by 7. His ORPM dropped by more than 3. I think it's fair to say his current offensive performance is costing us ~5 pp100p offensively which is the difference between being a Top 10 Offense and a Bottom 10 Offense.

Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve been saying Westbrook is the problem for a while. The major issue anyway. With how he always play at 100% speed all the time has me wondering if this is the Westbrook we will see over the next 5 years which is scary. Is it a payday hangover? Is he not hungry anymore? He has so many “miles” on him.

And I’m not expecting Westbrook to be Steph Curry, but would it hurt him to make just one cut to draw his defender off of the ball-handler?

Anyways, at this point, Westbrook doesn’t need to take more than 15 shots a game. He shouldn’t be taking any 3s. Ideally, he just needs to focus on clamping down on defense and driving and kicking and running nothing but pick and rolls and his sets. I think that is realistic for him to do, but it’s hard for an old dog to learn new tricks.


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[dakomish23]

Am I hallucinating or did I just watch Singler play 2 games in a row? Is this earth? Look it's bad enough they keep starting Roberson (42 minutes...2 points in this one) but for Pete's sake I thought they were finally completely done with the man-bun. I have no idea what in the world Donovan is trying to do with these bizarre rotations.

Russ might be

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[spearsy23]

So, lost in how ugly the game was lazy night, the offense was actually pretty respectable. A 108.2 O-rating wasn't noticeable because of an ungodly low pace. Again, it makes little sense, but even when shooting abysmally the offense is at its best running through Westbrook as long as he's generating looks for teammates.

[Pillendreher]

So, lost in how ugly the game was lazy night, the offense was actually pretty respectable. A 108.2 O-rating wasn't noticeable because of an ungodly low pace. Again, it makes little sense, but even when shooting abysmally the offense is at its best running through Westbrook as long as he's generating looks for teammates.

The offense only came to life after we started involving Adams in the 2nd quarter. Until Adams' dunk in the 2nd quarter, our ORtG was 73.8. After that dunk, it was 120.0. We need Adams involved because he's the only guy right now who can give us 15+ points on +60 TS%.

[spearsy23]

So, lost in how ugly the game was lazy night, the offense was actually pretty respectable. A 108.2 O-rating wasn't noticeable because of an ungodly low pace. Again, it makes little sense, but even when shooting abysmally the offense is at its best running through Westbrook as long as he's generating looks for teammates.

The offense only came to life after we started involving Adams in the 2nd quarter. Until Adams' dunk in the 2nd quarter, our ORtG was 73.8. After that dunk, it was 120.0. We need Adams involved because he's the only guy right now who can give us 15+ points on +60 TS%.

What was it before Westbrook left in the first? Seemed respectable. And the offense had already started a turn before that dunk.