2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST

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Player(s) of the Game

Paul George | 45 PTS (12-22 FG, 6-14 3P), 11 REB
17
74%
Jerami Grant | 8 PTS (3-9 FG), 8 REB, 2 STL, 2 BLK
0
No votes
Steven Adams | 6 PTS (3-6 FG), 9 REB, 2 STL, 2 BLK
2
9%
Terrance Ferguson | 15 PTS (6-9 FG, 3-5 3P)
3
13%
Russell Westbrook | 21 PTS (8-21 FG), 12 REB, 11 AST
1
4%
Dennis Schroder | 17 PTS (6-13 FG)
0
No votes
Other (specify below)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 23

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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#161 » by 1bigfan13 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:01 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Ive said that in years past but this year is noticeably worse. We've seen him airball free throws. He usually has airballs in each game and some of those 10-12 footers aren't even close. Like i posted in the game, he yelled "short" on a free throw and it was long. It's like he has no feeling in his fingertips.


The poor free throw shooting is the biggest surprise. Hard to believe a small rule change would drop a career 80% FT shooter down to a low 60s shooter from the line.

No one else in the league has been affected by that rule change to this degree. Has to be something else. Possibly a case of the mental "yips" from the FT line.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#162 » by Bergmaniac » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:14 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:Russ has to shoot to keep the defense honest and collapsing on him, all game long.

I don't understand this mentality. Defenders are already playing well off him and letting him shoot. Nobody is playing him close. Everyone in the league has the same stats we have and many more to boot and every coach is well aware Westbrook's shot has been completely off all year. He's shooting 30% on wide open shots outside of 10 feet this season. So defenders let him have those shots. He can still be an elite playmaker without shooting much from outside, as Rondo, Ben Simmons and others have proven over the years. Whatever value he gains from defenders not totally ignoring his outside shooting capability is more than offset by his inefficiency. It's one thing for a volume scorer to be at a league average TS%, as Westbrook has been for most of his career, but when he is 8 percentage points below the league average TS% and still shoots a lot, that is a huge negative for his team's offense. And this team has enough offensive options now that he's really hurting by shooting that much. You can get at least a semi contested 3 by George, ferguson Grant or even Schroder or a Adams post up shot pretty much every time and these are statistically much better options than Westbrook shooting.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#163 » by Pillendreher » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:24 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:If Steven Adams dropped 30 per game we'd score more points to.


Are you interested in a serious debate or not?

No, I'm not particularly interested in a debate about rather or not the team would be better if Westbrook was shooting better. That's just common sense. I'm more interested in the statement that Russ can't offset his poor shooting. If you mean Russ can't be as good as he was in the past if he doesn't shoot better, then again that's a common sense statement. I took that as he can't offset his inefficiency and have a positive impact, which is clearly untrue.


Then prove to me how he is offsetting his shooting with more than just declaring it to be the case. So far you haven't me offered anything that would support your thesis.

The guy can't carry lineups by himself anymore and has greatly diminished offensive impact stats. And nothing is changing.

It's not Russell Westbrook offsetting his shooting struggles
It's Paul George.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#164 » by hardenASG13 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:31 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Russ has to shoot to keep the defense honest and collapsing on him, all game long.

I don't understand this mentality. Defenders are already playing well off him and letting him shoot. Nobody is playing him close. Everyone in the league has the same stats we have and many more to boot and every coach is well aware Westbrook's shot has been completely off all year. He's shooting 30% on wide open shots outside of 10 feet this season. So defenders let him have those shots. He can still be an elite playmaker without shooting much from outside, as Rondo, Ben Simmons and others have proven over the years. Whatever value he gains from defenders not totally ignoring his outside shooting capability is more than offset by his inefficiency. It's one thing for a volume scorer to be at a league average TS%, as Westbrook has been for most of his career, but when he is 8 percentage points below the league average TS% and still shoots a lot, that is a huge negative for his team's offense. And this team has enough offensive options now that he's really hurting by shooting that much. You can get at least a semi contested 3 by George, ferguson Grant or even Schroder or a Adams post up shot pretty much every time and these are statistically much better options than Westbrook shooting.


Bergmaniac wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Russ has to shoot to keep the defense honest and collapsing on him, all game long.

I don't understand this mentality. Defenders are already playing well off him and letting him shoot. Nobody is playing him close. Everyone in the league has the same stats we have and many more to boot and every coach is well aware Westbrook's shot has been completely off all year. He's shooting 30% on wide open shots outside of 10 feet this season. So defenders let him have those shots. He can still be an elite playmaker without shooting much from outside, as Rondo, Ben Simmons and others have proven over the years. Whatever value he gains from defenders not totally ignoring his outside shooting capability is more than offset by his inefficiency. It's one thing for a volume scorer to be at a league average TS%, as Westbrook has been for most of his career, but when he is 8 percentage points below the league average TS% and still shoots a lot, that is a huge negative for his team's offense. And this team has enough offensive options now that he's really hurting by shooting that much. You can get at least a semi contested 3 by George, ferguson Grant or even Schroder or a Adams post up shot pretty much every time and these are statistically much better options than Westbrook shooting.


He collapses them on his post ups and drives. Yes they leave him open outside. Adams, Ferguson, and to a lesser extent grant all struggle to create their own offense. They play/score off of Westbrook and george primarily. They are all pretty good at it. Not sure any are capable of an extended role in taking more shots than they do, in that they would have to create the looks and have the ball more. Certainly none are playmakers, so you really want the ball in Westbrook and George's hands as much as possible. There are only 24 seconds on the shot clock, if an open shot presents itself, Russ and others have to shoot it. When Russ ends up as the open guy, it's usually because those other options are covered. When they are open Russ has done an outstanding job finding them, hasn't he?
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#165 » by SecondTake » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:46 pm

Watched the game this morning, came in to check the reactions and it didnt disappoint. LMAO.

People mocking Schroder on page 2-4 - then he comes out with a blowtorch and single handed drags the thunder back in to the game.

People making fun of Westbrook for his poor shooting despite him doing everything else at an elite level the entire game. But that's OK, because he comes out to seal the deal with a stop on Harden and a blow by drive.

Guys are busting on Adams, yet we get obliterated when he sits down and make a run as soon as his size 40 shoes touch the hardwood again.

Some of ya'll were ready to turn off the TV at half time. I honestly hope you did so you woke up to seeing our 26 point comeback on the box score instead of witnessing it on screen.

How many games does Schroeder need to have where he takes over the 3rd or 4th quarters for people to stop treating him like he's some G league scrub?

Come on, this Thunder team is good. WB cant shoot but he's still playing at an elite all around level. Schroder is doing everything you could ask for from a backup PG. Ferguson is the new Klay Thompson. PG is KD on steroids.

This team GOOD.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#166 » by SecondTake » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:51 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Man I hope we rebuild after this year. We’re so depleted in assets we get this close and do nothing to improve the roster,


Dude, you made about two dozen posts in this thread, each more depressing than the next. How about you wait for the second half to be over before we blow the whole team up and start tanking for picks?
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#167 » by ThunderBolt » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:54 pm

SecondTake wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:Man I hope we rebuild after this year. We’re so depleted in assets we get this close and do nothing to improve the roster,


Dude, you made about two dozen posts in this thread, each more depressing than the next. How about you wait for the second half to be over before we blow the whole team up and start tanking for picks?

I've had my stance for several seasons. Its has nothing to do with the game. Thanks though.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#168 » by spearsy23 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:56 pm

Pillendreher wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
Are you interested in a serious debate or not?

No, I'm not particularly interested in a debate about rather or not the team would be better if Westbrook was shooting better. That's just common sense. I'm more interested in the statement that Russ can't offset his poor shooting. If you mean Russ can't be as good as he was in the past if he doesn't shoot better, then again that's a common sense statement. I took that as he can't offset his inefficiency and have a positive impact, which is clearly untrue.


Then prove to me how he is offsetting his shooting with more than just declaring it to be the case. So far you haven't me offered anything that would support your thesis.

The guy can't carry lineups by himself anymore and has greatly diminished offensive impact stats. And nothing is changing.

It's not Russell Westbrook offsetting his shooting struggles
It's Paul George.

The offense is +10.9 points per 100 with him in the game.

With Westbrook/no george- +10.2 over no Westbrook/no George.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#169 » by Bergmaniac » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:05 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:He collapses them on his post ups and drives. Yes they leave him open outside. Adams, Ferguson, and to a lesser extent grant all struggle to create their own offense. They play/score off of Westbrook and george primarily. They are all pretty good at it. Not sure any are capable of an extended role in taking more shots than they do, in that they would have to create the looks and have the ball more. Certainly none are playmakers, so you really want the ball in Westbrook and George's hands as much as possible. There are only 24 seconds on the shot clock, if an open shot presents itself, Russ and others have to shoot it. When Russ ends up as the open guy, it's usually because those other options are covered. When they are open Russ has done an outstanding job finding them, hasn't he?

Nobody is objecting to Westbrook attacking the rim. It's all the outside shots he takes when he really doesn't have to which are the problem. These should be the last option late in the shot clock if there isn't anything else, but way too often they are not. He can improve his efficiency significantly simply by being more disciplined with his shot selections. No more jump shots with 15 seconds on the shot clock. No more "My guy scored on me so I'll rush to the other end and force a shot right away" plays. Always run the play designed to get a shot at the rim or a good shot for a teammate first. If it doesn't work, the jump shot is always an option.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#170 » by spearsy23 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Bergmaniac wrote:Always run the play designed to get a shot at the rim or a good shot for a teammate first. If it doesn't work, the jump shot is always an option.

Anywhere to see percentage of possessions where a set play is ran?
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#171 » by slick_watts » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:53 pm

i don't think it's common sense to everyone that westbrook cannot match previous seasons while shooting this way. i've heard from plenty of people that westbrook is as good as he's ever been because of his defense and play making this year. fans on this board were saying that when westbrook was putting up these shooting numbers earlier in the year. it's definitely not common sense.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#172 » by hardenASG13 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:54 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
SecondTake wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:Man I hope we rebuild after this year. We’re so depleted in assets we get this close and do nothing to improve the roster,


Dude, you made about two dozen posts in this thread, each more depressing than the next. How about you wait for the second half to be over before we blow the whole team up and start tanking for picks?

I've had my stance for several seasons. Its has nothing to do with the game. Thanks though.


How are rebuilds going for the other small markets? You realize it's not gonna be a situation where they draft a westbrook/kd/harden again right? No free agents sign here, after this group it could be a struggle for a decade. I doubt most of you guys could tolerate a rebuild, since you seemingly hate a top 5 team in the league (probably second best team).
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#173 » by hardenASG13 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:59 pm

nobody is gonna acknowledge Schroeder sparking another win, huh? He's been a flame thrower for the past month, had an awful December which y'all pounced on. Regulars looking pretty bad with the hate takes this year. He's extremely valuable piece to have coming off the bench.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#174 » by ThunderBolt » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:05 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
SecondTake wrote:
Dude, you made about two dozen posts in this thread, each more depressing than the next. How about you wait for the second half to be over before we blow the whole team up and start tanking for picks?

I've had my stance for several seasons. Its has nothing to do with the game. Thanks though.


How are rebuilds going for the other small markets? You realize it's not gonna be a situation where they draft a westbrook/kd/harden again right? No free agents sign here, after this group it could be a struggle for a decade. I doubt most of you guys could tolerate a rebuild, since you seemingly hate a top 5 team in the league (probably second best team).


To clarify I was ok with presti going for it this year even at the expense of trading the few assets we have. At some point you have to push your chips to the center of the table. We did nothing at the deadline. We could have used the injured player exception for Dre and been able to enlarge our cap. We could have likely gotten a guy like temple for a second round pick. We could/should have tried to get Wayne Ellington if we knew Abrines wasn’t coming back. I’m not ok with getting close and holding back.

I’m regard to a rebuild, you don’t have to draft three consecutive mvps to have a successful rebuild.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#175 » by SecondTake » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:25 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I've had my stance for several seasons. Its has nothing to do with the game. Thanks though.


How are rebuilds going for the other small markets? You realize it's not gonna be a situation where they draft a westbrook/kd/harden again right? No free agents sign here, after this group it could be a struggle for a decade. I doubt most of you guys could tolerate a rebuild, since you seemingly hate a top 5 team in the league (probably second best team).


To clarify I was ok with presti going for it this year even at the expense of trading the few assets we have. At some point you have to push your chips to the center of the table. We did nothing at the deadline. We could have used the injured player exception for Dre and been able to enlarge our cap. We could have likely gotten a guy like temple for a second round pick. We could/should have tried to get Wayne Ellington if we knew Abrines wasn’t coming back. I’m not ok with getting close and holding back.

I’m regard to a rebuild, you don’t have to draft three consecutive mvps to have a successful rebuild.


We dont know that Dre isnt coming back yet for sure.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#176 » by hardenASG13 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:58 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:I've had my stance for several seasons. Its has nothing to do with the game. Thanks though.


How are rebuilds going for the other small markets? You realize it's not gonna be a situation where they draft a westbrook/kd/harden again right? No free agents sign here, after this group it could be a struggle for a decade. I doubt most of you guys could tolerate a rebuild, since you seemingly hate a top 5 team in the league (probably second best team).


To clarify I was ok with presti going for it this year even at the expense of trading the few assets we have. At some point you have to push your chips to the center of the table. We did nothing at the deadline. We could have used the injured player exception for Dre and been able to enlarge our cap. We could have likely gotten a guy like temple for a second round pick. We could/should have tried to get Wayne Ellington if we knew Abrines wasn’t coming back. I’m not ok with getting close and holding back.

I’m regard to a rebuild, you don’t have to draft three consecutive mvps to have a successful rebuild.


Agree I would've liked to see someone added, but not sure what they had to offer was too enticing. Really the only guys I'd move are nader, patterson and diallo. Doubt anyone wanted patpat. Buyout market may be a more realistic route.

As is, nader and patterson won't play more than spot minutes in the playoffs, which isn't awful. Maybe Roberson can make it back and take naders minutes off the bench where they need D more than offense based in matchup? Although, as is, the defense is fine. If he's not making it back, then yea, they should've applied for that, they must think he has a shot. Playoffs are still 2 months away.

Again without golden State, they'd be considered strong title contenders. Don't want to mess with that too much. I think George is as good as anyone in the league this year. Not sure if adding an Ellington or stretch 4 to replace fatpat would do much to change that status, but I assume they'll add someone. I'd love to take a shot on Wes Mathews. They are an injury on GSW, or Durant having a wierd mental breakdown and disappearing over something petty away from winning a title this year.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#177 » by Pillendreher » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:17 pm

spearsy23 wrote:
Pillendreher wrote:
spearsy23 wrote:No, I'm not particularly interested in a debate about rather or not the team would be better if Westbrook was shooting better. That's just common sense. I'm more interested in the statement that Russ can't offset his poor shooting. If you mean Russ can't be as good as he was in the past if he doesn't shoot better, then again that's a common sense statement. I took that as he can't offset his inefficiency and have a positive impact, which is clearly untrue.


Then prove to me how he is offsetting his shooting with more than just declaring it to be the case. So far you haven't me offered anything that would support your thesis.

The guy can't carry lineups by himself anymore and has greatly diminished offensive impact stats. And nothing is changing.

It's not Russell Westbrook offsetting his shooting struggles
It's Paul George.

The offense is +10.9 points per 100 with him in the game.

With Westbrook/no george- +10.2 over no Westbrook/no George.


That's not answering my question. What explicitly is he doing to offset so many - let's face it - wasted possessions by him? You can't just look at the team output and go "Oh, it's working anyway" because you're not accounting for what the team is actively leaving on the table because of his struggles.

Is he creating more shot opportunities for his teammates? Per stats.nba.com, this is his lowest potential assists per 100 possessions season since 14/15. At the same time, he's averaging a career high in points created per assist per 100 possessions, so I guess there's something there (but nothing outrageous: We're talking about ~2 pp100p compared to the last 3 seasons, in some cases even less).

He's stealing the ball quite often, but it's actually just a tad better than his career average. He's grabbing the fewest offensive rebounds of his career, so it's not like he's generating a ton more possessions through that either.
He's deflecting the ball a lot, but that is - again - right in line with his recent play: 3.3 per 100 poss. last season, 3.29 this season.

So what else is there? The defense has been a little better, but he doesn't care that with enough regularity to actually make up for all the bricks.

We can't put a concrete number on this, but I find it highly irrational to act like it doesn't matter in the end. It does. The guy is in th 100th percentile in USG% and in the 11th percentile in points per shot attempt per ctg.com. There's no way in hell he can make up for that, especially when you keep in mind that it would need to be on top on what he has been doing in previous seasons outside of shooting the ball since the goal is to maintain his level. That's just not possible.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#178 » by Dadouv47 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:29 pm

Criticizing Westrook for his ''shooting decline'' doesn't mean that he's garbage anymore. He's still helping this team a lot, playing better defense and probably has the best BBIQ of his career. I also think he's a great leader and helping our young guys to develop their confidence.

Problem is that we went from a top 3 point guard and a top 10 player of this league (top 5 2 years ago) to an average all star player and top 20 at best. The fact that he can't hit his midrange shot is big huge issue because opponents don't have to defend on him as much as they used to (and we don't have great shooters to give the ball). So if PG13 isn't playing out of his mind, we are screwed. We don't have enough shooters to make up for Westbrook inability to score.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#179 » by ThunderBolt » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:31 pm

SecondTake wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
How are rebuilds going for the other small markets? You realize it's not gonna be a situation where they draft a westbrook/kd/harden again right? No free agents sign here, after this group it could be a struggle for a decade. I doubt most of you guys could tolerate a rebuild, since you seemingly hate a top 5 team in the league (probably second best team).


To clarify I was ok with presti going for it this year even at the expense of trading the few assets we have. At some point you have to push your chips to the center of the table. We did nothing at the deadline. We could have used the injured player exception for Dre and been able to enlarge our cap. We could have likely gotten a guy like temple for a second round pick. We could/should have tried to get Wayne Ellington if we knew Abrines wasn’t coming back. I’m not ok with getting close and holding back.

I’m regard to a rebuild, you don’t have to draft three consecutive mvps to have a successful rebuild.


We dont know that Dre isnt coming back yet for sure.

That doesn’t matter.

The Disabled Player Exception allows that injured player to get back on the court. It does not work like an Injured Reserve in some sports where the player cannot return that season even if he recover but the team justifiably cannot use the exception to replace an already-returned player.
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Re: 2/9 | G55: Oklahoma City Thunder at Houston Rockets - 7:30PM CST 

Post#180 » by ThunderBolt » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:40 pm

I’m going to vent a little bit. When I watched the highlights on espn.com it was almost entirely rocket highlights. On the watch ESPN app they always have a picture that represents the story of the night before. The picture this morning was of harden. Really? George doesn’t get enough credit nationally.
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