3/29 | G76: Denver Nuggets at Oklahoma City Thunder - 7PM CST

[1bigfan13]

8-27 on 3 pointers and there's your loss. This team simply refuses to accept what it is not. Whether it's Donovan or the players who continue to insist on jacking up a million 3s when clearly the team sucks at doing it it's been baffling and incredibly frustrating to watch. One of the benchmarks of great teams is respect for shot selection and offensive basketball IQ and they just don't have either.

I completely agree with you on this point.

It's one of the things that stuck out to me last night and most of the second half of this season.

Two sequences last night really highlighted the overall lack of IQ this team has.

First there was Morris chucking up a 3 pointer right before the half. OKC takes control of the ball with 17 seconds remaining. A team with an ounce of basketball IQ understands that you settle for the last shot in this situation unless you have a wide-open layup or dunk. Well our idiot player decides to pull up for a 3 pointer with 8 seconds remaining on the clock and he completely air balled the shot. The bad decision gave Denver the ball back with 8 seconds remaining. They didn’t score on their possession but still, that was an absolutely braindead decision by Morris given the situation.

The second instance was a flurry of bad decisions by Westbrook. First there was an instance in the 3rd quarter where we could have cut the lead to 1 point and Westbrook foolishly throws the ball the length of the court trying to hit Adams who had Jokic draped all over him. Jokic intercepted the pass and Denver comes down and scores….4 point swing purely based on stupidity and unnecessary risks. Next for some reason he got it in his head that he’s Steph Curry. Denver was just starting to pull away and had stretched their lead to 7. Instead of moving the ball and trying to get the best shot possible, Westbrook hurries down in consecutive possessions and chucks up 3 pointers that miss badly. Denver pushes the lead to double-digits and the rest is history.

It’s like you mentioned. This team simply doesn’t value each possession. They don’t understand that they don’t have the talent to overcome unforced errors. It’s like many of us have been pointing out all year long, this team lack self-awareness, particularly Westbrook. They’re like the person who on a scale of 1 to 10 is viewed as a 3 by everyone else, but when they look in the mirror at themselves all they view themselves as a 10.

[Dadouv47]

our team deserves the ''most bull*** postgame interviews award''

[SecondTake]

Billy needs to go. We need a coach that is going to actually make these guys pass the ball and stop the constant iso's. Even Houston at least plays PNR isos to get the matchup they want. We don't even bother with the PNR part. We just dish it to WB, PG or sometimes Grant and let them go 1on1 with whoever was guarding them at the start of the possession. Come on man, that's ridiculous.

When Morris made a pass to Noel guys were losing their minds because we get to see a nice dime maybe once a month with this team.

This is one of several games since the all star break that we would probably have won had Billy played Burton 15+ minutes. Instead we get 30 minutes of Ferguson playing decent defense with no offense and 10 minutes of Nader not doing anything as far as I can tell.

PG coming out about how good they must feel about their play is some Charles Manson level brainwashed delusion. You're a bottom 5 team since the break buddy.

[acheema0]

Billy needs to go. We need a coach that is going to actually make these guys pass the ball and stop the constant iso's. Even Houston at least plays PNR isos to get the matchup they want. We don't even bother with the PNR part. We just dish it to WB, PG or sometimes Grant and let them go 1on1 with whoever was guarding them at the start of the possession. Come on man, that's ridiculous.

Do you really think that's all on Billy? I'm sure Billy doesn't want them to play iso after iso, but thats what Russ and PG prefer. PG was quoted earlier in the year saying he told Billy to stop calling plays for him bc that is not what he prefers.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2810818-paul-george-asked-billy-donovan-to-stop-running-plays-for-him-last-season
If your star players don't want plays called for them, and they're ultimately the ones that make decisions on the court, can you blame Billy?

[Pillendreher]

I'm sure Billy doesn't want them to play iso after iso

And what makes you think that? Just because it's bad basketball it doesn't mean it's not part of the gameplan. This is what people being bad at their job looks like. Even though as fans we tend to assume that it can't be intentional, it most certainly could be. We've been playing this way for years. Neither is it new nor has it ever worked properly. Donovan was brought in to "fix" it. It has only gotten worse. With the same characteristics leading to these performances.

[acheema0]

I'm sure Billy doesn't want them to play iso after iso

And what makes you think that? Just because it's bad basketball it doesn't mean it's not part of the gameplan. This is what people being bad at their job looks like. Even though as fans we tend to assume that it can't be intentional, it most certainly could be. We've been playing this way for years. Neither is it new nor has it ever worked properly. Donovan was brought in to "fix" it. It has only gotten worse. With the same characteristics leading to these performances.

Because Billy was a very successful coach for a very long time and ran an offense that looked absolutely nothing like this one does. We have been playing this way for years, and there has been one constant through those years. You know who it is. Whenever he has been asked about the isoing or standing around he's said it needs to stop.

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Billy can tell the players how he wants them to play, but he's at their mercy from that point. They have to go do it, and when you have 2 stars, one who has been playing the same way now under 2 coaches and the other who has said publicly he told his coach not to run plays for him, I'm going to assume its not all Billy's call here. If you want to discuss him not getting through to the players, and how that makes him a bad coach, that's different, but I'm not sure who is available that would get through to them at this point.

[bondom34]

Just a note, but if your 2 examples of coaches are Scott Brooks and Donovan, I'm tending to lean to them just not being good coaches. We've seen Brooks do the exact same thing in Washington and he said all the same platitudes Donovan does. Seems to me like maybe it's coach speak, just like Brooks.

Edit: And to be clear, it's roster too, they still have no shooters, but we saw Durant not pass under Brooks, or Donovan, and now he at least somewhat does with Kerr. We saw PG pass under McMillan, not under Donovan. To me from looking outside in it looks more like a coaching thing than a players not listening thing.

[Pillendreher]

I'm sure Billy doesn't want them to play iso after iso

And what makes you think that? Just because it's bad basketball it doesn't mean it's not part of the gameplan. This is what people being bad at their job looks like. Even though as fans we tend to assume that it can't be intentional, it most certainly could be. We've been playing this way for years. Neither is it new nor has it ever worked properly. Donovan was brought in to "fix" it. It has only gotten worse. With the same characteristics leading to these performances.

Because Billy was a very successful coach for a very long time

We're talking NBA, not coaching some kids. This College nonsense doesn't matter to me, at all. That's like when a lawyer, who has been doing some wills and a couple of property transactions for the last couple of years, is suddenly tasked with handling multi million dollar deals. That's just not the same, even though it's the very same profession.

and ran an offense that looked absolutely nothing like this one does.

Except it did. I've seen footage of those Florida teams. Looked an awful lot like the Thunder.

We have been playing this way for years, and there has been one constant through those years. You know who it is.{/QUOTE]

His whole career he has played under the same kind of coach. Donovan is just a worse version of Brooks. Not once did he have a guy that knew what he was doing beyond offering empty platitutdes.

Whenever he has been asked about the isoing or standing around he's said it needs to stop.

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Talk is cheap. I've been telling people I'm close to handing in my dissertation for the past 12 months. I still haven't done it. What matters is what happens on the court, not what Donovan hides behind publicly.

Billy can tell the players how he wants them to play, but he's at their mercy from that point.

Leaders have to lead, they can't just manage things. What does it say about him that the team has played over 300 games while supposedly ignoring his gameplan every single season? If this indeed goes against what he wants them to do, he needs to go either way because we've been through 30 or so guys in these last four seasons and nothing whatsoever has changed. Nothing's going to change in the future either.

They have to go do it, and when you have 2 stars, one who has been playing the same way now under 2 coaches and the other who has said publicly he told his coach not to run plays for him, I'm going to assume its not all Billy's call here. If you want to discuss him not getting through to the players, and how that makes him a bad coach, that's different, but I'm not sure who is available that would get through to them at this point.

See above.

[acheema0]

Just a note, but if your 2 examples of coaches are Scott Brooks and Donovan, I'm tending to lean to them just not being good coaches. We've seen Brooks do the exact same thing in Washington and he said all the same platitudes Donovan does. Seems to me like maybe it's coach speak, just like Brooks.

I wouldn't say he's doing the exact same thing in Washington that he/Billy were/are doing here. Washington ranks in the top 10 of secondary assists, potential assists and assists points created over the last 2 years while we rank near the bottom in all 3 except for potential assists in which we are 19th. During Brooks tenure here, for at least as far as the tracking data shows, we were near the bottom of the league in all of those categories as well. And the raw passing numbers ranking wise may not look like a lot, but the Wiz this year average about 50 more passes than us per game, and that is fewer than the difference between them and first place team (they are in 18th place, we are in last)

[bondom34]

Just a note, but if your 2 examples of coaches are Scott Brooks and Donovan, I'm tending to lean to them just not being good coaches. We've seen Brooks do the exact same thing in Washington and he said all the same platitudes Donovan does. Seems to me like maybe it's coach speak, just like Brooks.

I wouldn't say he's doing the exact same thing in Washington that he/Billy were/are doing here. Washington ranks in the top 10 of secondary assists, potential assists and assists points created over the last 2 years while we rank near the bottom in all 3 except for potential assists in which we are 19th. During Brooks tenure here, for at least as far as the tracking data shows, we were near the bottom of the league in all of those categories as well. And the raw passing numbers ranking wise may not look like a lot, but the Wiz this year average about 50 more passes than us per game, and that is fewer than the difference between them and first place team (they are in 18th place, we are in last)

Assists aren't really a great passing indicator IMO. The Spurs aren't a worse passing team than the Wizards either, and the Wiz rank bottom half to bottom 3 in Brooks's 3 years there. Using just this year is fine, but they're also missing Wall in which case I'd guess you'd say Wall isn't listening to Brooks either? And what stands for Durant, who had the same trend? Either these coaches are consistently not getting through which is their job or they're not preaching it as much as they're selling.

[acheema0]

Just a note, but if your 2 examples of coaches are Scott Brooks and Donovan, I'm tending to lean to them just not being good coaches. We've seen Brooks do the exact same thing in Washington and he said all the same platitudes Donovan does. Seems to me like maybe it's coach speak, just like Brooks.

I wouldn't say he's doing the exact same thing in Washington that he/Billy were/are doing here. Washington ranks in the top 10 of secondary assists, potential assists and assists points created over the last 2 years while we rank near the bottom in all 3 except for potential assists in which we are 19th. During Brooks tenure here, for at least as far as the tracking data shows, we were near the bottom of the league in all of those categories as well. And the raw passing numbers ranking wise may not look like a lot, but the Wiz this year average about 50 more passes than us per game, and that is fewer than the difference between them and first place team (they are in 18th place, we are in last)

Assists aren't really a great passing indicator IMO. The Spurs aren't a worse passing team than the Wizards either, and the Wiz rank bottom half to bottom 3 in Brooks's 3 years there. Using just this year is fine, but they're also missing Wall in which case I'd guess you'd say Wall isn't listening to Brooks either? And what stands for Durant, who had the same trend? Either these coaches are consistently not getting through which is their job or they're not preaching it as much as they're selling.

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I mean Wall is the same type of ball-dominant player as Russ is. I would agree with the not consistently getting through portion of it though, I don't think Billy has shown to be able to do that at close to an adequate level.

[bondom34]

I wouldn't say he's doing the exact same thing in Washington that he/Billy were/are doing here. Washington ranks in the top 10 of secondary assists, potential assists and assists points created over the last 2 years while we rank near the bottom in all 3 except for potential assists in which we are 19th. During Brooks tenure here, for at least as far as the tracking data shows, we were near the bottom of the league in all of those categories as well. And the raw passing numbers ranking wise may not look like a lot, but the Wiz this year average about 50 more passes than us per game, and that is fewer than the difference between them and first place team (they are in 18th place, we are in last)

Assists aren't really a great passing indicator IMO. The Spurs aren't a worse passing team than the Wizards either, and the Wiz rank bottom half to bottom 3 in Brooks's 3 years there. Using just this year is fine, but they're also missing Wall in which case I'd guess you'd say Wall isn't listening to Brooks either? And what stands for Durant, who had the same trend? Either these coaches are consistently not getting through which is their job or they're not preaching it as much as they're selling.

\

I mean Wall is the same type of ball-dominant player as Russ is. I would agree with the not consistently getting through portion of it though, I don't think Billy has shown to be able to do that at close to an adequate level.

I'd agree on that. But we've seen it with Durant and George. And well...every player in and out of OKC over the years. At some point there's nothing to explain but coaching. I don't think other players are all scheming and telling new guys not to pass.

[acheema0]

Assists aren't really a great passing indicator IMO. The Spurs aren't a worse passing team than the Wizards either, and the Wiz rank bottom half to bottom 3 in Brooks's 3 years there. Using just this year is fine, but they're also missing Wall in which case I'd guess you'd say Wall isn't listening to Brooks either? And what stands for Durant, who had the same trend? Either these coaches are consistently not getting through which is their job or they're not preaching it as much as they're selling.

\

I mean Wall is the same type of ball-dominant player as Russ is. I would agree with the not consistently getting through portion of it though, I don't think Billy has shown to be able to do that at close to an adequate level.

I'd agree on that. But we've seen it with Durant and George. And well...every player in and out of OKC over the years. At some point there's nothing to explain but coaching. I don't think other players are all scheming and telling new guys not to pass.

Well PG is on record saying he asked Billy to stop calling plays for him, and GS fans have complained the whole time Durant has been there that he isos too much. I don't think anyone is telling anyone else not to pass, but Russ and PG are the leaders and the rest of the players take their cues from them. It also has to do with the kind of players that have been brought in. Dennis last year was a good isolation scorer, and not very good in other areas. Melo was notorious for it. And the rest of the players brought in have been mostly raw guys.

[bondom34]

\

I mean Wall is the same type of ball-dominant player as Russ is. I would agree with the not consistently getting through portion of it though, I don't think Billy has shown to be able to do that at close to an adequate level.

I'd agree on that. But we've seen it with Durant and George. And well...every player in and out of OKC over the years. At some point there's nothing to explain but coaching. I don't think other players are all scheming and telling new guys not to pass.

Well PG is on record saying he asked Billy to stop calling plays for him, and GS fans have complained the whole time Durant has been there that he isos too much. I don't think anyone is telling anyone else not to pass, but Russ and PG are the leaders and the rest of the players take their cues from them. It also has to do with the kind of players that have been brought in. Dennis last year was a good isolation scorer, and not very good in other areas. Melo was notorious for it. And the rest of the players brought in have been mostly raw guys.

Yeah, I'm not buying that Russ and PG are telling guys not to listen to the coach, when the coach hasn't had the other guys do the same stuff when those guys are out, and players who left have changed and players who came in did too. When everyone who leaves passes, and those who come in stop passing, I just don't buy the whole locker room undermining them. And when the positive example of a coach with an offensive scheme is Scott Brooks...

[Pillendreher]

To me this also is a simple matter of responsibility: If we can't hold the head coach accountable for the on court product, we should just do away with the whole position.

[Dadouv47]

During his year first as an NBA coach, some people posted here videos of what kind of offenses Billy Donovan was making in college. He had basically 2 different plays (pick and rolls) and that was it.
Seems that it was successful in college but lack of alternatives isn't enough in the NBA.

They brought Donovan like ''a offensive GOAT coach'' but he never showed anything close to good.

To be fair it's obvious that our issues are not only on him (it's not his fault if we have one of the worst shooting team in the NBA) but he never justified the reason why he was brought in. I don't think we can be a great team only by getting rid of Donovan but if we had a good coach and one of two good outside shooters we would be on another level.

[SecondTake]

\

I mean Wall is the same type of ball-dominant player as Russ is. I would agree with the not consistently getting through portion of it though, I don't think Billy has shown to be able to do that at close to an adequate level.

I'd agree on that. But we've seen it with Durant and George. And well...every player in and out of OKC over the years. At some point there's nothing to explain but coaching. I don't think other players are all scheming and telling new guys not to pass.

Well PG is on record saying he asked Billy to stop calling plays for him, and GS fans have complained the whole time Durant has been there that he isos too much. I don't think anyone is telling anyone else not to pass, but Russ and PG are the leaders and the rest of the players take their cues from them. It also has to do with the kind of players that have been brought in. Dennis last year was a good isolation scorer, and not very good in other areas. Melo was notorious for it. And the rest of the players brought in have been mostly raw guys.

OK, but then it's still the coaches fault for not getting through to PG and Russ. I mean what's the point of paying a coach that won't or can't coach? Regardless of the reasons, the end result is the same; Billy isn't running anything even resembling an offensive system. So Billy gotta go. You couldn't get an offensive system any worse with a new coach, so there isnt much to lose.

[Pillendreher]

To be fair it's obvious that our issues are not only on him (it's not his fault if we have one of the worst shooting team in the NBA) but he never justified the reason why he was brought in. I don't think we can be a great team only by getting rid of Donovan but if we had a good coach and one of two good outside shooters we would be on another level.

I want to see something change. We've been doing the same things for three straight seasons. Nothing has changed and nothing will unless somebody brings in new people in charge.

[1bigfan13]

Just a note, but if your 2 examples of coaches are Scott Brooks and Donovan, I'm tending to lean to them just not being good coaches. We've seen Brooks do the exact same thing in Washington and he said all the same platitudes Donovan does. Seems to me like maybe it's coach speak, just like Brooks.

Edit: And to be clear, it's roster too, they still have no shooters, but we saw Durant not pass under Brooks, or Donovan, and now he at least somewhat does with Kerr. We saw PG pass under McMillan, not under Donovan. To me from looking outside in it looks more like a coaching thing than a players not listening thing.

Exactly. Donovan is just offering up typical coach-speak. If he truly wanted his guys to play with more ball movement he has the power to enforce it. He's the coach. He controls minutes. If guys are just standing around and the ball is just sticking in the hands of 1 or 2 guys, pull everyone off the court and insert an entire new group of players who will play as you've instructed them to play.

Plenty of coaches have done this in the past, even to their star players, and generally those players get the message. Neither Donovan or Brooks has ever seemed interested in enforcing a standard of ball and player movement. Which goes to show how inept they both are. If I were the HC of an NBA team I'd do everything in my power to make sure the players ran my system properly because ultimately (in most cases) the coach is going to receive the blame and be fired before the players. So why not go out on your own terms rather than allowing the players to seal your fate with a failed brand of basketball. Makes no sense to me.

[ThunderBolt]

I’m bored of the players vs coach argument. Let’s just clean house because if we get rid of one and it turns out to not be the problem then we’ve wasted another year.