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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:49 pm
by Balkman32
Can't wait for a Dion Waiters Dennis Schroder backup back court....

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:12 pm
by Kizz Fastfists
Balkman32 wrote:Can't wait for a Dion Waiters Dennis Schroder backup back court....


That is good enough for a top 10 pick right there!!!

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:39 pm
by Jheat23
Balkman32 wrote:Can't wait for a Dion Waiters Dennis Schroder backup back court....

The most efficient timeline for the Thunder.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:41 pm
by jambalaya
Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:59 pm
by Kizz Fastfists
jambalaya wrote:Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.


Paul's contract only looks bad to people who think all big contracts are bad. He is getting market value. If he were an FA this off-season he would have gotten a max contract even after his "decline" last year. Paul will likely "only" be a top 8 PG this year and top 10 next year while sliding to the 12-15 range in the final year of his contract. To put that in context, based on RPM, the 10th, 18th and 21st ranked PGs from last year all just signed max contracts. That would be Kemba, Ben Simmons and D'Angelo Russell. CP3 was 5th in RPM last yer so there is no argument against him being worth a max contract at this point unless you think he is going to drop from 5th to 20th next season. Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played last year then when he didn't.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:26 pm
by DayofMourning
Kizz Fastfists wrote:
jambalaya wrote:Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.


Paul's contract only looks bad to people who think all big contracts are bad. He is getting market value. If he were an FA this off-season he would have gotten a max contract even after his "decline" last year. Paul will likely "only" be a top 8 PG this year and top 10 next year while sliding to the 12-15 range in the final year of his contract. To put that in context, based on RPM, the 10th, 18th and 21st ranked PGs from last year all just signed max contracts. That would be Kemba, Ben Simmons and D'Angelo Russell. CP3 was 5th in RPM last yer so there is no argument against him being worth a max contract at this point unless you think he is going to drop from 5th to 20th next season. Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played last year then when he didn't.


I alluded to this on the Heat forum. Paul makes every team he joins significantly better. His WS, BPM, VORP, etc. are all time great good. Its not like he fell off a Cliff. Probably keeps you guys out of the lottery.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:30 pm
by ThunderBolt
DayofMourning wrote:
Kizz Fastfists wrote:
jambalaya wrote:Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.


Paul's contract only looks bad to people who think all big contracts are bad. He is getting market value. If he were an FA this off-season he would have gotten a max contract even after his "decline" last year. Paul will likely "only" be a top 8 PG this year and top 10 next year while sliding to the 12-15 range in the final year of his contract. To put that in context, based on RPM, the 10th, 18th and 21st ranked PGs from last year all just signed max contracts. That would be Kemba, Ben Simmons and D'Angelo Russell. CP3 was 5th in RPM last yer so there is no argument against him being worth a max contract at this point unless you think he is going to drop from 5th to 20th next season. Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played last year then when he didn't.


I alluded to this on the Heat forum. Paul makes every team he joins significantly better. His WS, BPM, VORP, etc. are all time great good. Its not like he fell off a Cliff. Probably keeps you guys out of the lottery.

Our two best players are Gallinari and Paul. Despite the fact I think both guys are underrated, I don’t think they can stay healthy enough to sneak in the playoffs.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:46 pm
by ThunderBolt
Did anyone read the round table discussion on Westbrook by Brett Dawson on the athletic? I’m hearing it talked about on the radio...not too flattering for the thunder culture. If anyone has access and wants to clarify or expand, please go ahead.

Notes- (this is a summary of radio commentary about the article so it may not be exact)
-When on the road, Russ was the one that decided how long the team stayed in a particular city.
-Russ created an atmosphere that made other players uncomfortable doing pregame interviews with the media.
-Presti was crushed when they had to trade George but people in the organization were ready to part ways with russ.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:59 pm
by Sun_Tzu
Dadouv47 wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:Why has the whole, 'OKC has to trade Paul because he wants that' discussion thus far focused only on the Thunder's responsibility to make this happen. To the extent agents can pressure an organization to do certain things why can't the agent also pressure Miami (for instance) to do the deal and back down from a demand of excess draft picks? Is it just because we presume Pat Reilly has no problem telling agents to screw off whereas Presti has shown a clear willingness to give in to players and agents time and again?


This. If teams are not willing to trade for CP3, they can't blame OKC/Presti.

Why would we trade an huge amount of assets for the well being of a player we don't owe anything?

(and we are talking about a guy that already made several hundred of millions in the NBA and had the shot to contend (and to choke) several times, it's not like we are preventing a poor young guy that wants a shot in the NBA for his first contract).

If nobody is willing to trade for him, he can stay for the money or get a buy out to contend somewhere else.

On the surface this idea of just keep him and pay seems fine; once you start to consider the value of future cap space and flexibility, keeping Paul on a rebuilding team is just not a viable option (unless the cost to dump him is prohibitive). Look at what GS had to pay to offload Iguodala. The ability to absorb a contract or two when a contending team is in a tight spot trying to clear cap has immense value during a rebuild. If OKC clears CP while bringing in roughly equal salary on 1 and 2 year deals, we will have the ability to sell cap space in the 2020 offseason and, more importantly given the projected free agency class, the 2021 summer. The picks to be gained selling cap space, along with the potential to flip a player like Dragic at the deadline, should more than make up for the loss of a pick or two to offload CP.
I am not suggesting we roll over and give the Heat multiple high value picks; a deal centered around the Miami picks we currently hold would seem to be best for both teams. Those picks, as presently configured, are handcuffing the Heat. Acquiring that Miami 2023 pick has given Presti some serious leverage here. I would think that getting that pick back would be Riley's number one priority.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:05 pm
by slick_watts
ThunderBolt wrote:Did anyone read the round table discussion on Westbrook by Brett Dawson on the athletic? I’m hearing it talked about on the radio...not too flattering for the thunder culture. If anyone has access and wants to clarify or expand, please go ahead.

Notes- (this is a summary of radio commentary about the article so it may not be exact)
-When on the road, Russ was the one that decided how long the team stayed in a particular city.
-Russ created an atmosphere that made other players uncomfortable doing pregame interviews with the media.
-Presti was crushed when they had to trade George but people in the organization were ready to part ways with russ.


yes. it has stuff everyone knew. that this was westbrook's team and he was a tyrant.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:27 pm
by Kizz Fastfists
slick_watts wrote:yes. it has stuff everyone knew. that this was westbrook's team and he was a tyrant.


How dare you speak this way of our lord and savior!!!

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:48 pm
by spearsy23
ThunderBolt wrote:Did anyone read the round table discussion on Westbrook by Brett Dawson on the athletic? I’m hearing it talked about on the radio...not too flattering for the thunder culture. If anyone has access and wants to clarify or expand, please go ahead.

Notes- (this is a summary of radio commentary about the article so it may not be exact)
-When on the road, Russ was the one that decided how long the team stayed in a particular city.
-Russ created an atmosphere that made other players uncomfortable doing pregame interviews with the media.
-Presti was crushed when they had to trade George but people in the organization were ready to part ways with russ.

I think you guys are a bit naive. Russ had a lot of power and say, so do a lot of other NBA players. Maybe not as much as Russ did here, but not significantly less.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:50 pm
by spearsy23
Kizz Fastfists wrote:
jambalaya wrote:Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.


Paul's contract only looks bad to people who think all big contracts are bad. He is getting market value. If he were an FA this off-season he would have gotten a max contract even after his "decline" last year. Paul will likely "only" be a top 8 PG this year and top 10 next year while sliding to the 12-15 range in the final year of his contract. To put that in context, based on RPM, the 10th, 18th and 21st ranked PGs from last year all just signed max contracts. That would be Kemba, Ben Simmons and D'Angelo Russell. CP3 was 5th in RPM last yer so there is no argument against him being worth a max contract at this point unless you think he is going to drop from 5th to 20th next season. Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played last year then when he didn't.


Everyone say it with me: RPM. IS. NOT. A. PLAYER. RATER.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:54 pm
by jake_swivel
Kizz Fastfists wrote:
jambalaya wrote:Meh to bad $30 plus million / yr contracts are becoming more numerous. Paul's won't look as bad in 12-18 months.


Paul's contract only looks bad to people who think all big contracts are bad. He is getting market value. If he were an FA this off-season he would have gotten a max contract even after his "decline" last year. Paul will likely "only" be a top 8 PG this year and top 10 next year while sliding to the 12-15 range in the final year of his contract. To put that in context, based on RPM, the 10th, 18th and 21st ranked PGs from last year all just signed max contracts. That would be Kemba, Ben Simmons and D'Angelo Russell. CP3 was 5th in RPM last yer so there is no argument against him being worth a max contract at this point unless you think he is going to drop from 5th to 20th next season. Houston had a significantly better winning percentage when CP3 played last year then when he didn't.


Sweet. We should have a line of teams chomping at the bit to offer assets for him. Guess we'll see.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:10 pm
by slick_watts
Dawson: That makes me think about the larger issue of Westbrook with a new franchise. There’s an impression, some of it fair, that the Thunder catered to him too much, that too much of the team and franchise operated on his whims. In the three seasons that I’ve been here, certainly, Westbrook was allowed to dictate the team’s media policies in ways most players can’t. He effectively eliminated pregame locker room interviews by creating an atmosphere in which other players seemed uncomfortable doing them.

Katz: As someone who covered Westbrook during the years he became the solo star in OKC, I am more intrigued to see how that part of this plays out than anything else. The Thunder have always very intentionally catered to their stars. Once Durant left, they turned the organization over to Westbrook in a way few other franchises had done with a player. LeBron in Cleveland might be the only other example of one individual having as much sway with a team. It was no secret. The man literally made “Now I do what I want” the slogan of his MVP season. I always wondered how much of Westbrook staying in Oklahoma City had to do with that, considering no other place was going to give him as much freedom. And I think that translates to both on- and off-court lifestyle ... He’s in the past decided how long the Thunder stay in certain cities on the road. This was very much his team.

Dawson: If there’s any reason for optimism that Westbrook will change, I think it’s the change of scenery. As Fred said, he was given such free run of the Thunder organization, and though he tweaked his game to accommodate Paul George — and to a lesser extent, Carmelo Anthony — I don’t know that he ever could have made wholesale changes to his approach on or off the court in Oklahoma City.

It would have been nearly impossible for a new coach to take over and say, for example, that he was going to limit shootarounds or for a new head of PR to change the media policies. Westbrook’s routines were established here, and he was dedicated to them.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:32 pm
by jambalaya
Paul's contract isn't appealing. But it could be palatable in the context of an overall trade.

I mainly meant that it will look a bit less unusual over time.

The number of $30 plus million per year guys has already gone from a few to maybe a dozen. The next dozen will come in the next 2 years.

It is pretty amazing that the top guys are not too far off from making $50 mil in a season. I am probably going to pay less attention to the money side of the sport.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:35 pm
by ThunderBolt
Spoiler:
slick_watts wrote:Dawson: That makes me think about the larger issue of Westbrook with a new franchise. There’s an impression, some of it fair, that the Thunder catered to him too much, that too much of the team and franchise operated on his whims. In the three seasons that I’ve been here, certainly, Westbrook was allowed to dictate the team’s media policies in ways most players can’t. He effectively eliminated pregame locker room interviews by creating an atmosphere in which other players seemed uncomfortable doing them.

Katz: As someone who covered Westbrook during the years he became the solo star in OKC, I am more intrigued to see how that part of this plays out than anything else. The Thunder have always very intentionally catered to their stars. Once Durant left, they turned the organization over to Westbrook in a way few other franchises had done with a player. LeBron in Cleveland might be the only other example of one individual having as much sway with a team. It was no secret. The man literally made “Now I do what I want” the slogan of his MVP season. I always wondered how much of Westbrook staying in Oklahoma City had to do with that, considering no other place was going to give him as much freedom. And I think that translates to both on- and off-court lifestyle ... He’s in the past decided how long the Thunder stay in certain cities on the road. This was very much his team.

Dawson: If there’s any reason for optimism that Westbrook will change, I think it’s the change of scenery. As Fred said, he was given such free run of the Thunder organization, and though he tweaked his game to accommodate Paul George — and to a lesser extent, Carmelo Anthony — I don’t know that he ever could have made wholesale changes to his approach on or off the court in Oklahoma City.

It would have been nearly impossible for a new coach to take over and say, for example, that he was going to limit shootarounds or for a new head of PR to change the media policies. Westbrook’s routines were established here, and he was dedicated to them.


I think this is more of a reflection on Presti’s philosophy on how the franchise is run than Russ. Yes russ should have enough common sense to quit shooting threes and sleeping on defense. However catering stars shouldn’t go to the extent that you can’t have open and honest communication on how to maximize their own abilities.

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:50 pm
by Dadouv47
all ex teammates only say good things about Russ. Media hates him. I trust the players more.

Wish guys like Scott Brooks and Billy Donovan would say something but one day we will know

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:19 pm
by Pillendreher
slick_watts wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:Did anyone read the round table discussion on Westbrook by Brett Dawson on the athletic? I’m hearing it talked about on the radio...not too flattering for the thunder culture. If anyone has access and wants to clarify or expand, please go ahead.

Notes- (this is a summary of radio commentary about the article so it may not be exact)
-When on the road, Russ was the one that decided how long the team stayed in a particular city.
-Russ created an atmosphere that made other players uncomfortable doing pregame interviews with the media.
-Presti was crushed when they had to trade George but people in the organization were ready to part ways with russ.


yes. it has stuff everyone knew. that this was westbrook's team and he was a tyrant.
Lol

Re: Thunder Offseason Thread

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:27 pm
by ThunderBolt
Even if Paul is a malcontent, I don’t see him doing irreparable damage if he’s here until the deadline.