Thunder Offseason Thread

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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#481 » by slick_watts » Sat May 18, 2019 9:01 pm

oreojenkins wrote:Getting a little out of hand here. Despite his shooting, Westbrook was still a top ~30 player last year. Saying he's not a starting caliber PG is absurd.


if russ is top 30 or worse going forward then the team should blow it up. we can't win a title with a top 10-15 player and a top 30 player and our quality of supporting cast.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#482 » by Osirus89 » Sun May 19, 2019 4:01 am

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
petros93 wrote:I'm all in on trading Adams. It has to happen. A team with westbrook shooting like that and no spot up shooters can't have Adams as the starting 5. Trade him Sam. Do it!


Are you aware that OKC's starting 2-4 all shot over 36% from 3 last year? Russ has shooters around him. Russ made the choice to take 5.6 three point shots a game while shooting under 30%. The lack of shooing on OKC is at the PG position. If you want to improve OKC's shooting you start by getting rid of Russ. If you want OKC to get out of the first round you get rid of Russ. If you OKC to be a favorite to make the playoffs next year you get rid of Russ. If you want OKC to continue to decline you keep Russ. If you want OKC to continue to be a bad shooting team you keep Russ. If you want OKC to be a rebuilding team that pays the luxury tax you keep Russ.

This seems less like a defense of Adams and more of a push to get rid of them both. You have to admit that Adams is really overpaid for the caliber of player he is though right? I mean regardless of how you feel about Russ, that seems pretty indisputable at this point.

Watching Portland just underscores how many flaw this team has.
GS is putting out lineups with Klay as the only shooter and still getting production while this team couldn’t make headway with all 5 starters playing. Smdh
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#483 » by kdthunderup » Sun May 19, 2019 4:14 am

I'm going to give Westbrook the benefit of the doubt for this season. He underwent last minute knee surgery in the previous off-season and missed training camp. Sprained his ankle quite severely early into the season. We also found out that he had an issue with his finger. All of these reasons can explain him not being at his physical best and his shooting woes. It still doesn't explain his brash decision making and poor shot selection at times but its often at the fault of how the offense is constructed.

Two main things that we need to focus on this off-season is dumping Schroeder and acquiring a decent wing player. Schroeder has too many flaws as a player and is not a good fit with this team, finding a way to clear his contract will be crucial. Unfortunately we will either have to package him alongside an asset or take on another bad contract.

We could roll the dice on a Schroeder + Roberson for Batum trade. Batum is on a terrible contract but he would be serviceable and provide value to this team which Schroeder in no way does.

Schroeder + #21 for TJ Warren.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#484 » by Kizz Fastfists » Sun May 19, 2019 5:21 am

kdthunderup wrote:All of these reasons can explain him not being at his physical best and his shooting woes. It still doesn't explain his brash decision making and poor shot selection at times but its often at the fault of how the offense is constructed.


What shooting woes? The idea that he had a bad shooting year is baffling. His eFG% was 46.8 and for his career it is 46.5. His TS% was 50.1 and for his career it is 52.9 to put that in perspective in '17-'18 it was 52.4 so he has had consecutive years of below career average TS%. Compared to Russ' career average he shot .06% worse from the field and 1.8% worse from 3. His FT% is the only area you can argue he could improve because he was 14.5% below his career mark there, but he had dropped to 73.7% in '17-'18 and while 65.6% was unexpected I don't see him getting it back past 75% at this point even if I'm trying to be overly optimistic.

The offensive construction isn't going to change. He is getting to the FT line at a lower rate, which is a trend, so even if he gets his FT% back up it won't have the same impact as when he was getting to the line 10 times a game. There really is nothing to point at and say that Russ should improve from last year's shooting at this point in his career. It is actually the opposite. He should be shooting below his career averages as he physically declines due to age. Russ did not have a bad shooting season. He had an expected shooting season. He will be just as bad if not worse next season.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#485 » by Kizz Fastfists » Sun May 19, 2019 5:28 am

kdthunderup wrote:Schroeder + #21 for TJ Warren.


Why does Phoenix do this? They wouldn't outbid Melo and a pair of 2nds for Schroder so why would they now give up Warren? Schroder and 21 for a TPE might work for Phoenix if Darius Garland goes off the board before their pick and they miss in FA. The problem is then they stuck with the player OKC drafted instead of getting who they might have wanted.

If the rumors of an OKC promise to Thybulle are accurate #21 is off the table. Schroder and OKC's 2024 1st top 10 protected then top 4 protected then unprotected would probably get someone to eat Schroder's salary. It would also probably be giving up a future top 5 pick. At this point OKC needs to ride out the bad Kanter contract. If they had just kept Kanter they would be clear of it already and would have retained all the assets it took to turn it into Schroder. The loss of assets wouldn't be so bad if they had ended up with a decent player instead of Schroder.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#486 » by kdthunderup » Sun May 19, 2019 5:56 am

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
kdthunderup wrote:All of these reasons can explain him not being at his physical best and his shooting woes. It still doesn't explain his brash decision making and poor shot selection at times but its often at the fault of how the offense is constructed.


What shooting woes? The idea that he had a bad shooting year is baffling. His eFG% was 46.8 and for his career it is 46.5. His TS% was 50.1 and for his career it is 52.9 to put that in perspective in '17-'18 it was 52.4 so he has had consecutive years of below career average TS%. Compared to Russ' career average he shot .06% worse from the field and 1.8% worse from 3. His FT% is the only area you can argue he could improve because he was 14.5% below his career mark there, but he had dropped to 73.7% in '17-'18 and while 65.6% was unexpected I don't see him getting it back past 75% at this point even if I'm trying to be overly optimistic.

The offensive construction isn't going to change. He is getting to the FT line at a lower rate, which is a trend, so even if he gets his FT% back up it won't have the same impact as when he was getting to the line 10 times a game. There really is nothing to point at and say that Russ should improve from last year's shooting at this point in his career. It is actually the opposite. He should be shooting below his career averages as he physically declines due to age. Russ did not have a bad shooting season. He had an expected shooting season. He will be just as bad if not worse next season.


You need to dive into the numbers more. Westbrook shot career lows on everything from 3ft away from the basket. He surprisingly shot a career high 65% at the rim but im strictly refferring to his jump shooting. I'm not saying he has ever been an efficent shooter but his mid range was off all season and that can be reflected in his numbers. Injuries to his lower body and hand would surely have an impact.

In regards to the Schroeder trade, I do realise it is a bit of a stretch but who thought we would get PG with Oladipo and Sabonis? You hope that the Suns are desperate enough for a point guard they accept the offer. The 21st pick is just an extra incentive for them.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#487 » by Pillendreher » Sun May 19, 2019 9:33 am

In this regular season, we had a 7 week stretch with excellent 3pt shooting: From game 39 to game 58, we made 41.2 % of our 3s. In the other 62 games, we made 32.7 % of our 3s. In those 20 games where we became snipers, we outperformed the opposing defense by +6.3 pp100p. The rest of the way, we underperformed the opposing defense by 2.7 points. The sample size is somewhat small, but still: That's a 9 pp100p swing. Shooting matters.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#488 » by oreojenkins » Sun May 19, 2019 6:38 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
oreojenkins wrote:Getting a little out of hand here. Despite his shooting, Westbrook was still a top ~30 player last year. Saying he's not a starting caliber PG is absurd.


Top 30 player based on what? Entertainment? We just saw the data about correlation to wins and stats. eFG% has the highest correlation to the point that 85% of the time that alone will give you the winner of the game. Russ is the worst player in the NBA at eFG% given his volume and historically horrible eFG%. That means that you can actually make a statistically based argument for Russ being the worst player in the NBA if the goal is winning. You can't do that with a top 50 player.


Pretty simple, pick an all-encompassing metric and he'll be 20-45 across the board. PIPM, RPM, BPM, etc. Look at on/off numbers.

And are you using a tweet about a high school's W/L predicated upon eFG% to extrapolate to the NBA? Looking back, eFG% can explain about 50% of wins and losses.

slick_watts wrote:
oreojenkins wrote:Getting a little out of hand here. Despite his shooting, Westbrook was still a top ~30 player last year. Saying he's not a starting caliber PG is absurd.


if russ is top 30 or worse going forward then the team should blow it up. we can't win a title with a top 10-15 player and a top 30 player and our quality of supporting cast.


Don't disagree. But also not realistic.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#489 » by Pillendreher » Sun May 19, 2019 7:04 pm

Read on Twitter


Since then, one Eastern Conference scout thought Donovan did not adjust enough defensively in playoff series against Utah and Portland.


We're an over team.

One Western Conference scout called Donovan more "chaperone" than coach.


I'm the WC scout.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#490 » by wco81 » Sun May 19, 2019 11:07 pm

Do you think another coach could have similar effect on this roster that Coach Bud has had with more or less the same Bucks roster as Kidd had?

Or even if the effect isn’t as drastic, maybe get the team to 50-55 wins and at least the WCF?
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#491 » by Kizz Fastfists » Mon May 20, 2019 2:10 am

wco81 wrote:Do you think another coach could have similar effect on this roster that Coach Bud has had with more or less the same Bucks roster as Kidd had?

Or even if the effect isn’t as drastic, maybe get the team to 50-55 wins and at least the WCF?


No. Giannias wants to win and is open to coaching. Russ doesn't care about winning if it means not getting his first and isn't open to coaching.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#492 » by kdthunderup » Mon May 20, 2019 3:16 am

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
wco81 wrote:Do you think another coach could have similar effect on this roster that Coach Bud has had with more or less the same Bucks roster as Kidd had?

Or even if the effect isn’t as drastic, maybe get the team to 50-55 wins and at least the WCF?


No. Giannias wants to win and is open to coaching. Russ doesn't care about winning if it means not getting his first and isn't open to coaching.

How do we know? Russ has had incompetent pushover coaches his whole career. We have no idea how he would of developed if we had someone like a Popovich.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#493 » by Kizz Fastfists » Mon May 20, 2019 3:32 am

kdthunderup wrote:How do we know? Russ has had incompetent pushover coaches his whole career. We have no idea how he would of developed if we had someone like a Popovich.


This implies that no one on the staff has ever tried to get him to improve his shot selection and stop taking stupid threes. No one on the staff has tried to get him to stop fighting with his teammates for rebounds and get out on a fast break. No one on the staff has ever told him to stop driving into multiple defenders where is likely to turn the ball over or miss the shot.

If the coaching staff has been that incompetent for his whole career then the only solution to prevent this for future teams would be to fire Presti. Do you believe Presti should be fired for incompetence?
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#494 » by Pillendreher » Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 pm

It can be both. Donovan and Brooks can bebad coaches while Russ can be a stubborn mule.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#495 » by Kizz Fastfists » Mon May 20, 2019 2:25 pm

Pillendreher wrote:It can be both. Donovan and Brooks can bebad coaches while Russ can be a stubborn mule.


Yes, it can definitely be both. However, I find it hard to believe that no one on the coaching staff has ever tried to get Russ to play a smarter style of basketball. Even if Donovan and Brooks both tried for years that doesn't make them good coaches. It just makes Russ stubborn and unwilling to put the team first.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#496 » by slick_watts » Tue May 21, 2019 12:31 pm

far from convincing him not to, the team tacitly and even at times directly enabled russ' behaviors and attitudes after kevin durant left.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#497 » by Old Man Game » Tue May 21, 2019 12:51 pm

slick_watts wrote:far from convincing him not to, the team tacitly and even at times directly enabled russ' behaviors and attitudes after kevin durant left.


This appears to be true. I'll always wonder who's decision that was, because it felt like marketing as much as anything.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#498 » by Balkman32 » Wed May 22, 2019 12:42 pm

Where does Roberson get his minutes this year? I feel like he can play anywhere from 2-4 on offense and then just have him guard the best player on the other team, other than a big time center.

The big thing this offseason is just getting NBA players on this team. Losing Noel & Morris shouldn't hurt that much. But, they need to add a backup C and two wings that can shoot it. If KD really leaves the Warriors this team could do some serious damage if they can get some wings.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#499 » by Kizz Fastfists » Wed May 22, 2019 2:55 pm

Balkman32 wrote:Where does Roberson get his minutes this year? I feel like he can play anywhere from 2-4 on offense and then just have him guard the best player on the other team, other than a big time center.

The big thing this offseason is just getting NBA players on this team. Losing Noel & Morris shouldn't hurt that much. But, they need to add a backup C and two wings that can shoot it. If KD really leaves the Warriors this team could do some serious damage if they can get some wings.


Roberson is done so he'll get the same minutes he got last year. OKC is capped out so they aren't adding any wings worth mentioning. They'll spend the same in FA that they did last year. Even if kd leaves GS that doesn't help OKC get out of the first round and depending on where he goes it could actually hurt OKC's chances to make the playoffs at all.
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Re: Thunder Offseason Thread 

Post#500 » by mr570 » Wed May 22, 2019 4:06 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
Balkman32 wrote:Where does Roberson get his minutes this year? I feel like he can play anywhere from 2-4 on offense and then just have him guard the best player on the other team, other than a big time center.

The big thing this offseason is just getting NBA players on this team. Losing Noel & Morris shouldn't hurt that much. But, they need to add a backup C and two wings that can shoot it. If KD really leaves the Warriors this team could do some serious damage if they can get some wings.


Roberson is done so he'll get the same minutes he got last year. OKC is capped out so they aren't adding any wings worth mentioning. They'll spend the same in FA that they did last year. Even if kd leaves GS that doesn't help OKC get out of the first round and depending on where he goes it could actually hurt OKC's chances to make the playoffs at all.

Your takes are consistently awful. Do you get a chub from being the most pessimistic guy in the room all the time?

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