CAN play Kanter...LMAO

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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#41 » by Pillendreher » Tue May 7, 2019 4:06 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Does the team that scores the most points really win the game or are those declaring victory just manipulating the numbers because they are stat nerds? Especially if my almighty eyeballs tell me otherwise.


"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#42 » by hardenASG13 » Tue May 7, 2019 4:12 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Does the team that scores the most points really win the game or are those declaring victory just manipulating the numbers because they are stat nerds? Especially if my almighty eyeballs tell me otherwise.


Hate to let this get away from discussing kanter making okc look like idiots, but just to be clear:

So you think this was Russell Westbrooks best season finishing at the rim. Is that correct?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#43 » by Kizz Fastfists » Tue May 7, 2019 4:42 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:Hate to let this get away from discussing kanter making okc look like idiots, but just to be clear:

So you think this was Russell Westbrooks best season finishing at the rim. Is that correct?


Just to be clear: you think that making shots has nothing to do with being effective when shooting and that assist rates and turnover rates have nothing to do with efficiency. Is that correct? It is all about what your emotional mind remembers and not what actually happened. Is that correct?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#44 » by slick_watts » Tue May 7, 2019 5:23 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Does the team that scores the most points really win the game or are those declaring victory just manipulating the numbers because they are stat nerds? Especially if my almighty eyeballs tell me otherwise.


*hearty chuckle*
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#45 » by hardenASG13 » Tue May 7, 2019 7:43 pm

Kizz Fastfists wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Hate to let this get away from discussing kanter making okc look like idiots, but just to be clear:

So you think this was Russell Westbrooks best season finishing at the rim. Is that correct?


Just to be clear: you think that making shots has nothing to do with being effective when shooting and that assist rates and turnover rates have nothing to do with efficiency. Is that correct? It is all about what your emotional mind remembers and not what actually happened. Is that correct?


So you think it was his best season at the rim?

Also, not even talking to you here, I want to hear what tbolt thinks. You don't seem to actually even watch games. You've claimed jae Crowder was better than Paul George, when he was acquired, based on stats (that weren't accurately portraying who was the better player, very clearly). You also think Terrance Ferguson is the next jimmy butler, despite them having completely different games (again you likely found a guy who also didn't score his rookie year, butler, and said you see alot of similarities). Then late last year you chimed in with the same old grant sucks comments, when he had long disproved that BS, and cited percentages as your reasoning, which weren't portraying his visible progress as a player.

So I guess I can see why you'd think Russ had his best season ever going to the rim, I doubt you watch much ball. This is really, really bad guys. He was a shell of himself in his ability to create out of nothing going to the basket this year, which is something okc relies on.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#46 » by Kizz Fastfists » Tue May 7, 2019 8:14 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:So I guess I can see why you'd think Russ had his best season ever going to the rim, I doubt you watch much ball. This is really, really bad guys. He was a shell of himself in his ability to create out of nothing going to the basket this year, which is something okc relies on.


Now you are changing the question. This was a terrible year of him GOING to the rim. It was his best year FINISHING at the rim. Those are two different things. Every post you have made before this one was about him finishing and shooting at the rim. Now you are talking about GOING to the rim where he is slower and as a result he got trapped AWAY from the rim more because teams anticipated it and were playing off him more than in the past because his shooting is gone.

Russ had one of if not his best season at FINISHING at the rim. That means that when he got there he was great. He was terrible GETTING to the rim because teams didn't give him as tight of coverage in the past which led to more help and trapping and he has a low BBIQ so he couldn't anticipate them. He couldn't see that defenses were playing him different. It is also why when he tried to go to the rim against Portland and they chased through the screen and Kanter stayed between him and the rim he shot terrible mid-range jumpers. That was him failing at GETTING to the rim. That was not a failure of FINISHING at the rim because by definition in order to finish at the rim you must first get there.

If you are arguing that Russ is slower, playing on bad knees, lost elevation, lost explosiveness and as a result can not GET to the rim the way he used to and can not create space and offense for the team because he has the shooting skills of Roberson then you have a point. If you are arguing that he couldn't finish at the rim when he got there then you are wrong. If you do not understand the meaning of words then go read a dictionary.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#47 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 11:41 am

hardenASG13 wrote:So I guess I can see why you'd think Russ had his best season ever going to the rim, I doubt you watch much ball. This is really, really bad guys. He was a shell of himself in his ability to create out of nothing going to the basket this year, which is something okc relies on.


we're a couple posts away from you flaunting your youth basketball coaching experience, aren't we... :nonono:
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#48 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 11:51 am

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:So I guess I can see why you'd think Russ had his best season ever going to the rim, I doubt you watch much ball. This is really, really bad guys. He was a shell of himself in his ability to create out of nothing going to the basket this year, which is something okc relies on.


we're a couple posts away from you flaunting your youth basketball coaching experience, aren't we... :nonono:


No, but I again find it funny that you try to use me being a successful high school coach as insult! We don't keep stats either

No I was referring to his outrageous claims, such as jar Crowder being better than Paul George bc RPM said so, that Terrance Ferguson looks like the next jimmy butler bc they both scored 2 ppg as rookies or something, and play nothing alike, that grant was a bum late last year based on shooting percentages (it's better than pillendreher doing it 20 games into this season, but still), and this latest take, that based on stats, Westbrook had his best season ever going to the rim, when that was far from the actual case to anyone watching the games. That and he's admitted he rarely watches games.

Those are my reasons bub....
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#49 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 12:00 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:Westbrook had his best season ever going to the rim, when that was far from the actual case to anyone watching the games.


lets remind ourselves of what you originally said:

3) you are right, Westbrook can't shoot, especially this season. He was better midrange and at the rim previously.


i mean, it's clear you were saying that westbrook shot worse at the rim than before based on the context of your statement and wording of your statement. i'm not surprised you've since moved the goal posts to something more subjective because that's your safe space-- a place where your takes cannot be threatened by objectivity.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#50 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 12:43 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Westbrook had his best season ever going to the rim, when that was far from the actual case to anyone watching the games.


lets remind ourselves of what you originally said:

3) you are right, Westbrook can't shoot, especially this season. He was better midrange and at the rim previously.


i mean, it's clear you were saying that westbrook shot worse at the rim than before based on the context of your statement and wording of your statement. i'm not surprised you've since moved the goal posts to something more subjective because that's your safe space-- a place where your takes cannot be threatened by objectivity.


And I'm not surprised you took it to scrutinizing word choice in an effort to backpedal. You know exactly what I'm saying. This was a terrible season for him going to and finishing at the basket, by his standards. It's funny to me you'd argue otherwise.

What are the exact stats you are referring to anyway as objective facts?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#51 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 12:47 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:What are the exact stats you are referring to anyway as objective facts?


lol i'm not posting them again. go read through the thread. you'll find them. heck, go to basketball-reference.com or stats.nba.com and do the research yourself. this discussion is wrapped up nicely, imo.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#52 » by acheema0 » Wed May 8, 2019 12:52 pm

Presented without comment:
Read on Twitter
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#53 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 12:53 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:What are the exact stats you are referring to anyway as objective facts?


lol i'm not posting them again. go read through the thread. you'll find them. heck, go to basketball-reference.com or stats.nba.com and do the research yourself. this discussion is wrapped up nicely, imo.


Ok how bout this, per nbcsports.com

"In this series, Westbrook struggled to get to the rack and finish at a high level. He missed over half his layups, making just 48.8 percent of his shots at the rim (league average is about 60 percent). Westbrook finished with zero dunks in the series and his transition efficiency ranked dead-last among players with at least 20 transition plays, per NBA.com tracking. Normally, we could chalk that up to small sample size, but Westbrook ranked last in transition efficiency in the regular season among the 27 players with at least 250 transition plays. This is more than a blip."
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#54 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 12:55 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:What are the exact stats you are referring to anyway as objective facts?


lol i'm not posting them again. go read through the thread. you'll find them. heck, go to basketball-reference.com or stats.nba.com and do the research yourself. this discussion is wrapped up nicely, imo.


Ok how bout this, per nbcsports.com

"In this series, Westbrook struggled to get to the rack and finish at a high level. He missed over half his layups, making just 48.8 percent of his shots at the rim (league average is about 60 percent). Westbrook finished with zero dunks in the series and his transition efficiency ranked dead-last among players with at least 20 transition plays, per NBA.com tracking. Normally, we could chalk that up to small sample size, but Westbrook ranked last in transition efficiency in the regular season among the 27 players with at least 250 transition plays. This is more than a blip."


yes, he had a bad series finishing at the rim against portland. so?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#55 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 1:01 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
slick_watts wrote:
lol i'm not posting them again. go read through the thread. you'll find them. heck, go to basketball-reference.com or stats.nba.com and do the research yourself. this discussion is wrapped up nicely, imo.


Ok how bout this, per nbcsports.com

"In this series, Westbrook struggled to get to the rack and finish at a high level. He missed over half his layups, making just 48.8 percent of his shots at the rim (league average is about 60 percent). Westbrook finished with zero dunks in the series and his transition efficiency ranked dead-last among players with at least 20 transition plays, per NBA.com tracking. Normally, we could chalk that up to small sample size, but Westbrook ranked last in transition efficiency in the regular season among the 27 players with at least 250 transition plays. This is more than a blip."


yes, he had a bad series finishing at the rim against portland. so?


Ignoring the part about him being last in transition efficiency for the entire regular season, huh? Classic slick.

Just looked back......the only thing I can see is you claimed he shot his highest percentage at the rim with close to the same numbers. Is it possible he was just taking easier shots there, and shooting a higher percentage while not being the same scorer there as previous years (this is that whole validity piece!).

I've had people tell me Roberson was a better outside shooter than Marcus smart on here too, based on percentages, and ignoring quality of looks. This is so comical I can't help but engage, though it's completely derailing the fact that kanter proved more useful than the 100 million man in this year's platoffs.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#56 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 1:08 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:Ignoring the part about him being last in transition efficiency for the entire regular season, huh? Classic slick.


transition efficiency doesn't seem relevant to the discussion since westbrook attempts a lot of jump shots in transition. still, ranking at or near the bottom with the stated criteria is not unusual for him. last season under the same criteria (250+ transition possessions) westbrook ranked 22 out of 25 players in efficiency. in 2016-17, his mvp year, he ranked 17 of 19 players.

again, this is something you could have researched before posting. you choose not to.

hardenASG13 wrote:Just looked back......the only thing I can see is you claimed he shot his highest percentage at the rim with close to the same numbers. Is it possible he was just taking easier shots there, and shooting a higher percentage while not being the same scorer there as previous years (this is that whole validity piece!).


you obviously didn't look back enough since you don't grasp that the frequency is also about the same, too.

hardenASG13 wrote:I've had people tell me Roberson was a better outside shooter than Marcus smart on here too, based on percentages, and ignoring quality of looks. This is so comical I can't help but engage, though it's completely derailing the fact that kanter proved more useful than the 100 million man in this year's platoffs.


no. andre roberson was a better outside shooter than marcus smart (at the time) because he knew he was a bad shooter and marcus smart didn't.

keep digging.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#57 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 1:30 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:Ignoring the part about him being last in transition efficiency for the entire regular season, huh? Classic slick.


transition efficiency doesn't seem relevant to the discussion since westbrook attempts a lot of jump shots in transition. still, ranking at or near the bottom with the stated criteria is not unusual for him. last season under the same criteria (250+ transition possessions) westbrook ranked 22 out of 25 players in efficiency. in 2016-17, his mvp year, he ranked 17 of 19 players.

again, this is something you could have researched before posting. you choose not to.

hardenASG13 wrote:Just looked back......the only thing I can see is you claimed he shot his highest percentage at the rim with close to the same numbers. Is it possible he was just taking easier shots there, and shooting a higher percentage while not being the same scorer there as previous years (this is that whole validity piece!).


you obviously didn't look back enough since you don't grasp that the frequency is also about the same, too.

hardenASG13 wrote:I've had people tell me Roberson was a better outside shooter than Marcus smart on here too, based on percentages, and ignoring quality of looks. This is so comical I can't help but engage, though it's completely derailing the fact that kanter proved more useful than the 100 million man in this year's platoffs.


no. andre roberson was a better outside shooter than marcus smart (at the time) because he knew he was a bad shooter and marcus smart didn't.

keep digging.


Haha ok , you're standing by this being his best season at the rim. We and basically all the basketball world couldn't be further apart on this, but do you. The whole starting point on this argument that was that surrounding a bad shooter like Westbrook with non shooters and creators like adams and Ferguson is a recipe for failure. I compared it to giannis who can't shoot. Ferguson and adams into Milwaukee's lineup for Middleton or Bronson and lopez. It would make no sense considering giannis can't shoot.just like it doesn't in okc, going back to the whole point which is CAN play kanter.

No I'm aware frequency was the same, he just didnt attempt the difficult shots he used to take and make as much, and didn't get to the line nearly as effectively, which is a big part of going to the rim. His attempts were easier, and percentages were higher as a result. Frequency was about the same because he gets there a ton, since you know, he's Russel westbrook.

Smart shot a lower percentage because he was actually guarded, and had to create looks because that's what NBA shooting guards are expected to do, as opposed to roberson, who shot and frequently airballed standstill 3s with no closeout. Do you understand the difference?

As a Roberson aside: still waiting for the name of starting/rotational caliber 2 guard okc replaced him with since his injury?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#58 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 1:57 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:No I'm aware frequency was the same, he just didnt attempt the difficult shots he used to take and make as much, and didn't get to the line nearly as effectively, which is a big part of going to the rim. His attempts were easier, and percentages were higher as a result. Frequency was about the same because he gets there a ton, since you know, he's Russel westbrook.


so your contention is that westbrook is attempting, on average, easier shots at the rim compared to prior seasons? there's no way i know of to research this short of watching the clips of his fga (which, i won't do if you're the only bozo contesting this). stats.nba.com cannot filter closest defender by shot distance to my knowledge. at least not with that granularity.

but simply from a logical and observational perspective, i have to disagree. what i saw from westbrook this year were teams dropping pnr on him more and more and him having to force a lot of shots at the rim in traffic which was collapsed on him more than ever inside of 10 feet. not the other way around. our lack of shooting made his shot attempts more difficult on average imo. his jump shots were the easy shots that teams were letting him have with impunity.

i mean think about this. his driving the same # of times. attempting the same # of shots at the rim. but his attempts were easier? why? because teams are respecting his jump shot and our teams' jump shooting so much that they are giving westbrook space in the only spot on the court where he has value anymore?

he was just really good at finishing this year at the rim. i don't think shot difficulty had anything to do with it. i'd ask for evidence from you but i know you don't have any.

westbrook did have career low FTr. and yes, it was harder for him to get to the rim than ever because teams don't respect his jump shooting at all. but, uh, he still got there with the same frequency. so if frequency is the same, but difficulty in getting to the rim is higher, how does it follow that shot difficulty is lower...?

hardenASG13 wrote:Smart shot a lower percentage because he was actually guarded, and had to create looks because that's what NBA shooting guards are expected to do, as opposed to roberson, who shot and frequently airballed standstill 3s with no closeout. Do you understand the difference?


that's all possible. i don't care about airballs. airballs have the same value as any missed shot. smart attempted a lot of threes, he had poor shot selection. andre roberson did not have poor shot selection. this is part of the gap between them as shooters

hardenASG13 wrote:As a Roberson aside: still waiting for the name of starting/rotational caliber 2 guard okc replaced him with since his injury?


the hell are you talking about?
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#59 » by hardenASG13 » Wed May 8, 2019 2:49 pm

slick_watts wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:No I'm aware frequency was the same, he just didnt attempt the difficult shots he used to take and make as much, and didn't get to the line nearly as effectively, which is a big part of going to the rim. His attempts were easier, and percentages were higher as a result. Frequency was about the same because he gets there a ton, since you know, he's Russel westbrook.


so your contention is that westbrook is attempting, on average, easier shots at the rim compared to prior seasons? there's no way i know of to research this short of watching the clips of his fga (which, i won't do if you're the only bozo contesting this). stats.nba.com cannot filter closest defender by shot distance to my knowledge. at least not with that granularity.

but simply from a logical and observational perspective, i have to disagree. what i saw from westbrook this year were teams dropping pnr on him more and more and him having to force a lot of shots at the rim in traffic which was collapsed on him more than ever inside of 10 feet. not the other way around. our lack of shooting made his shot attempts more difficult on average imo. his jump shots were the easy shots that teams were letting him have with impunity.

i mean think about this. his driving the same # of times. attempting the same # of shots at the rim. but his attempts were easier? why? because teams are respecting his jump shot and our teams' jump shooting so much that they are giving westbrook space in the only spot on the court where he has value anymore?

he was just really good at finishing this year at the rim. i don't think shot difficulty had anything to do with it. i'd ask for evidence from you but i know you don't have any.

westbrook did have career low FTr. and yes, it was harder for him to get to the rim than ever because teams don't respect his jump shooting at all. but, uh, he still got there with the same frequency. so if frequency is the same, but difficulty in getting to the rim is higher, how does it follow that shot difficulty is lower...?

hardenASG13 wrote:Smart shot a lower percentage because he was actually guarded, and had to create looks because that's what NBA shooting guards are expected to do, as opposed to roberson, who shot and frequently airballed standstill 3s with no closeout. Do you understand the difference?


that's all possible. i don't care about airballs. airballs have the same value as any missed shot. smart attempted a lot of threes, he had poor shot selection. andre roberson did not have poor shot selection. this is part of the gap between them as shooters

hardenASG13 wrote:As a Roberson aside: still waiting for the name of starting/rotational caliber 2 guard okc replaced him with since his injury?


the hell are you talking about?


You know exactly what I'm talking about. Name an NBA caliber 2 the thunder have tried to replace Roberson with, or who was backup him up all those years. Give a name. If you cant it means i haven't been "debunked " on anything re Roberson. Roberson didn't have poor shot selection, he had poor shot generation, and that he could only shoot wide open, standstill set shots. That's the problem in okc. Ferguson had the same issues, minus the ugly set shot. With an NBA team, if your sg can't create any looks for himself or others, can't (not doesnt) attempt any remotely difficult shots, and can't shoot off the dribble, on a team with a non shooting center and a superstar who's game isn't based on his outside shooting ability, it's a huge issue. Unfortunately OKC hasn't brought in anyone else capable of doing routine things for an NBA player at the position, unless you can name one, so there is nothing to compare to.
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Re: CAN play Kanter...LMAO 

Post#60 » by slick_watts » Wed May 8, 2019 2:52 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:You know exactly what I'm talking about. Name an NBA caliber 2 the thunder have tried to replace Roberson with, or who was backup him up all those years. Give a name. If you cant it means i haven't been "debunked " on anything re Roberson.


lol. what.

this actually made me laugh.

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