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It's gotta hurt all the people on this message board who continuously ragged on Kanter when he was here when he not only outplayed our 100 million dollar man Adams but continues to go right on starting for Portland against Denver and is playing very well and just doing what he does...pretty much 14/10 every game. Like I said when he was in OKC he should not only have been starting but also playing about 34 minutes per game ( he only averaged about 25 here) and of course I was 100% right. Unfortunately we just had a coach that didn't believe in him and didn't know how to use him correctly. Doesn't have anything to do with our team right now but I also was ragged on incessantly by many on this board for my stance on Kanter and it sure feels awfully good to see all of you eat crow now.

But, but.....the stats say the way to go is non shooting/ slow defensive centers and defensive effort non shooters/Non dribblers/Non playmakers on the wing are the way to go.......its working so well for.....nobody in the league.

Yes was great seeing kanter outplay Adams in round one honestly, so many have more than been critical of him, and trusted the word of the great Billy Donovan that he couldn't play. It turns out, you just can't switch him onto opposing point guards, which is extremely easy not to do! Just imagine how good Portland would be if they took away the shooting of McCollum, harkless, or curry and replaced them with a defender who can't shoot or create at any level haha.

Okc and their philosophical bs about stats have butchered a surefire dynasty. Laughable coaching and personnel decisions. It's why KD rightfully left. It's not all about regular season defensive ratings, folks

hardenASG13 wrote:But, but.....the stats say the way to go is non shooting/ slow defensive centers and defensive effort non shooters/Non dribblers/Non playmakers on the wing are the way to go.......its working so well for.....nobody in the league.

Yes was great seeing kanter outplay Adams in round one honestly, so many have more than been critical of him, and trusted the word of the great Billy Donovan that he couldn't play. It turns out, you just can't switch him onto opposing point guards, which is extremely easy not to do! Just imagine how good Portland would be if they took away the shooting of McCollum, harkless, or curry and replaced them with a defender who can't shoot or create at any level haha.

Okc and their philosophical bs about stats have butchered a surefire dynasty. Laughable coaching and personnel decisions. It's why KD rightfully left. It's not all about regular season defensive ratings, folks

But, but we were piling on too early after they were down 0-2.

People here said it wouldn't be as bad if he weren't being switched onto Harden, Curry, etc. Kanter is a bad defensive player. Portland is doing a great job making sure he gets help on defense and is making their wings fight through screens instead of switching. They hiding him as much as possible on defense. Jokic has had two very good games against Kanter. Denver shot 20% from 3 and lost a game. Unless Kanter was the one challenging the shooters, which he wasn't, I don't think he deserves credit for the game 2 win.

denver missed a lot of threes. they're not a bad shooting team like us. i'll be shocked if this defensive performance is repeatable for portland.

hardenASG13 wrote:But, but.....the stats say the way to go is non shooting/ slow defensive centers and defensive effort non shooters/Non dribblers/Non playmakers on the wing are the way to go.......its working so well for.....nobody in the league.

Yes was great seeing kanter outplay Adams in round one honestly, so many have more than been critical of him, and trusted the word of the great Billy Donovan that he couldn't play. It turns out, you just can't switch him onto opposing point guards, which is extremely easy not to do! Just imagine how good Portland would be if they took away the shooting of McCollum, harkless, or curry and replaced them with a defender who can't shoot or create at any level haha.

Okc and their philosophical bs about stats have butchered a surefire dynasty. Laughable coaching and personnel decisions. It's why KD rightfully left. It's not all about regular season defensive ratings, folks

you have a really bad habit of claiming victories too early.

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:But, but.....the stats say the way to go is non shooting/ slow defensive centers and defensive effort non shooters/Non dribblers/Non playmakers on the wing are the way to go.......its working so well for.....nobody in the league.

Yes was great seeing kanter outplay Adams in round one honestly, so many have more than been critical of him, and trusted the word of the great Billy Donovan that he couldn't play. It turns out, you just can't switch him onto opposing point guards, which is extremely easy not to do! Just imagine how good Portland would be if they took away the shooting of McCollum, harkless, or curry and replaced them with a defender who can't shoot or create at any level haha.

Okc and their philosophical bs about stats have butchered a surefire dynasty. Laughable coaching and personnel decisions. It's why KD rightfully left. It's not all about regular season defensive ratings, folks

you have a really bad habit of claiming victories too early.

Too early?? The thunder drafted the best organic core maybe ever. Traded one of them. One (the best player in the league) left because they had no system offensively, used bizarre strategies defensively, and routinely started a sg witg 0 NBA (or college level) perimeter skills, with nobody on the bench to back him up. Now their last remaining piece from that core is losing some of his athleticism due to aging. It's not too early, this thing has been butchered.

They still have hope somewhat, as golden state won't be nearly the same post KD as they were pre KD next year, and they aren't far off anyone else. Their only path to relevance is bringing in talented perimeter players in exchange for adams, who holds almost no value league wide. Nobody posts up their center anymore, sorry to tell everyone. Combine it with terrible pick and roll defense and no range on offense and it's as bad a fit as it gets. Not sure who else in the playoffs starts Adams? Brooklyn maybe? And if he doesn't start, does he play heavy minutes anywhere? Don't see anyone handing big minutes to backup centers who can't shoot and are too slow on defense.

Okc went all in on these BS ratings, data, and sold alot of their fanbase on trash. They deemed kanter unplayable, and the funny thing is most of these playoff teams would deem adams as such. What separates him from Boban, honestly. Kanter is and has been the better player. He just got screwed playing for okc and the Knicks. Very happy for him. OKC could desperately use a guy like him (can step out of the lane, shoot a foul line spot up shot, beast on the boards on both ends, able to create a shot). But they will probably go down with the ship with their blindfolds on, oblivious that the league is all about speed, playmaking, and shooting.....and not individual perimeter defensive specialists and guys like adams. 25 mill a year for as bad a compliment to their franchise guy, and current state of the NBA, as it gets. Good for kanter

hardenASG13 wrote:

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:But, but.....the stats say the way to go is non shooting/ slow defensive centers and defensive effort non shooters/Non dribblers/Non playmakers on the wing are the way to go.......its working so well for.....nobody in the league.

Yes was great seeing kanter outplay Adams in round one honestly, so many have more than been critical of him, and trusted the word of the great Billy Donovan that he couldn't play. It turns out, you just can't switch him onto opposing point guards, which is extremely easy not to do! Just imagine how good Portland would be if they took away the shooting of McCollum, harkless, or curry and replaced them with a defender who can't shoot or create at any level haha.

Okc and their philosophical bs about stats have butchered a surefire dynasty. Laughable coaching and personnel decisions. It's why KD rightfully left. It's not all about regular season defensive ratings, folks

you have a really bad habit of claiming victories too early.

Too early?? The thunder drafted the best organic core maybe ever. Traded one of them. One (the best player in the league) left because they had no system offensively, used bizarre strategies defensively, and routinely started a sg witg 0 NBA (or college level) perimeter skills, with nobody on the bench to back him up. Now their last remaining piece from that core is losing some of his athleticism due to aging. It's not too early, this thing has been butchered.

They still have hope somewhat, as golden state won't be nearly the same post KD as they were pre KD next year, and they aren't far off anyone else. Their only path to relevance is bringing in talented perimeter players in exchange for adams, who holds almost no value league wide. Nobody posts up their center anymore, sorry to tell everyone. Combine it with terrible pick and roll defense and no range on offense and it's as bad a fit as it gets. Not sure who else in the playoffs starts Adams? Brooklyn maybe? And if he doesn't start, does he play heavy minutes anywhere? Don't see anyone handing big minutes to backup centers who can't shoot and are too slow on defense.

Okc went all in on these BS ratings, data, and sold alot of their fanbase on trash. They deemed kanter unplayable, and the funny thing is most of these playoff teams would deem adams as such. What separates him from Boban, honestly. Kanter is and has been the better player. He just got screwed playing for okc and the Knicks. Very happy for him. OKC could desperately use a guy like him (can step out of the lane, shoot a foul line spot up shot, beast on the boards on both ends, able to create a shot). But they will probably go down with the ship with their blindfolds on, oblivious that the league is all about speed, playmaking, and shooting.....and not individual perimeter defensive specialists and guys like adams. 25 mill a year for as bad a compliment to their franchise guy, and current state of the NBA, as it gets. Good for kanter

you've been debunked on most of this before. i was specifically referring to your thoughts on kanter after one win against denver. i understand your need to pounce on small victories when you can get them, but this seems excessively premature to me. even for you.

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:

slick_watts wrote:
you have a really bad habit of claiming victories too early.

Too early?? The thunder drafted the best organic core maybe ever. Traded one of them. One (the best player in the league) left because they had no system offensively, used bizarre strategies defensively, and routinely started a sg witg 0 NBA (or college level) perimeter skills, with nobody on the bench to back him up. Now their last remaining piece from that core is losing some of his athleticism due to aging. It's not too early, this thing has been butchered.

They still have hope somewhat, as golden state won't be nearly the same post KD as they were pre KD next year, and they aren't far off anyone else. Their only path to relevance is bringing in talented perimeter players in exchange for adams, who holds almost no value league wide. Nobody posts up their center anymore, sorry to tell everyone. Combine it with terrible pick and roll defense and no range on offense and it's as bad a fit as it gets. Not sure who else in the playoffs starts Adams? Brooklyn maybe? And if he doesn't start, does he play heavy minutes anywhere? Don't see anyone handing big minutes to backup centers who can't shoot and are too slow on defense.

Okc went all in on these BS ratings, data, and sold alot of their fanbase on trash. They deemed kanter unplayable, and the funny thing is most of these playoff teams would deem adams as such. What separates him from Boban, honestly. Kanter is and has been the better player. He just got screwed playing for okc and the Knicks. Very happy for him. OKC could desperately use a guy like him (can step out of the lane, shoot a foul line spot up shot, beast on the boards on both ends, able to create a shot). But they will probably go down with the ship with their blindfolds on, oblivious that the league is all about speed, playmaking, and shooting.....and not individual perimeter defensive specialists and guys like adams. 25 mill a year for as bad a compliment to their franchise guy, and current state of the NBA, as it gets. Good for kanter

you've been debunked on most of this before. i was specifically referring to your thoughts on kanter after one win against denver. i understand your need to pounce on small victories when you can get them, but this seems excessively premature to me. even for you.

Haven't been debunked on anything. OKC massively underachieved with the potential dynasty they had. It wasn't their stars. It was the coaching and the **** pieces they were made to play with all these years. They became obsessed with beating the gasol/Bynum and kobe lakers.....and unfortunately never stopped building a roster towards that, despite the league shifting years ago to surrounding stars with shooting. It was their downfall, it didn't work. 1 game vs. Denver? He outplayed adams head to head as well. Can't play adams.

hardenASG13 wrote:Haven't been debunked on anything.

you have been thoroughly debunked on your andre roberson, steven adams and enes kanter takes. do we have to re-hash this any time enes kanter has a decent game? or any time the thunder have a week of solid offense post-'dre injury?

hardenASG13 wrote:OKC massively underachieved with the potential dynasty they had. It wasn't their stars. It was the coaching and the **** pieces they were made to play with all these years.

it's a combination of the harden trade, injuries, and being overly concerned with tomorrow instead of today. in general, anyway. it could maybe be argued we lost the 2012 finals due to coaching. i guess. but in reality it's one of numerous factors. i don't see how coaching had any effect on westbrook hurting his knee, durant hurting his foot, or ibaka hurting his calf.

hardenASG13 wrote:They became obsessed with beating the gasol/Bynum and kobe lakers.....and unfortunately never stopped building a roster towards that, despite the league shifting years ago to surrounding stars with shooting. It was their downfall, it didn't work.

sam's definitely been behind on certain changes. a primary ball-handler like russell westbrook who cannot shoot is probably the definition of what you're talking about here-- and yet, you've been an ardent defender of westbrook despite his struggles.

hardenASG13 wrote:1 game vs. Denver? He outplayed adams head to head as well. Can't play adams.

portland abused westbrook by dropping pnr on him which gave kanter simple and easy defensive assignments. last night the nuggets missed a lot of threes. we'll see if that continues. por was able to not get hurt by keeping kanter in v. us because of westbrook's inability to shoot.

Kizz Fastfists wrote:People here said it wouldn't be as bad if he weren't being switched onto Harden, Curry, etc. Kanter is a bad defensive player. Portland is doing a great job making sure he gets help on defense and is making their wings fight through screens instead of switching. They hiding him as much as possible on defense. Jokic has had two very good games against Kanter. Denver shot 20% from 3 and lost a game. Unless Kanter was the one challenging the shooters, which he wasn't, I don't think he deserves credit for the game 2 win.

I think the main point is he has value and is playable even in the postseason. People get too caught up in what players can't do and don't focus enough on what a player CAN do. Billy Donovan's incompetent ass should have figured out a way to capitalize on Kanter's strengths.

1bigfan13 wrote:

Kizz Fastfists wrote:People here said it wouldn't be as bad if he weren't being switched onto Harden, Curry, etc. Kanter is a bad defensive player. Portland is doing a great job making sure he gets help on defense and is making their wings fight through screens instead of switching. They hiding him as much as possible on defense. Jokic has had two very good games against Kanter. Denver shot 20% from 3 and lost a game. Unless Kanter was the one challenging the shooters, which he wasn't, I don't think he deserves credit for the game 2 win.

I think the main point is he has value and is playable even in the postseason. People get too caught up in what players can't do and don't focus enough on what a player CAN do. Billy Donovan's incompetent ass should have figured out a way to capitalize on Kanter's strengths.

uh, he did do this in the WCSF versus the spurs in 2016. there's nothing billy can do to hide his deficiencies against the best pick and roll handler in nba history (harden) or the 72 win warriors.

kanter is still terrible on defense.

[quote="slick_watts"][quote="hardenASG13"]
Haven't been debunked on anything.[/quote]

you have been thoroughly debunked on your andre roberson, steven adams and enes kanter takes. do we have to re-hash this any time enes kanter has a decent game? or any time the thunder have a week of solid offense post-'dre injury?

[quote="hardenASG13"]OKC massively underachieved with the potential dynasty they had. It wasn't their stars. It was the coaching and the **** pieces they were made to play with all these years. [/quote]

it's a combination of the harden trade, injuries, and being overly concerned with tomorrow instead of today. in general, anyway. it could maybe be argued we lost the 2012 finals due to coaching. i guess. but in reality it's one of numerous factors. i don't see how coaching had any effect on westbrook hurting his knee, durant hurting his foot, or ibaka hurting his calf.

[quote="hardenASG13"]They became obsessed with beating the gasol/Bynum and kobe lakers.....and unfortunately never stopped building a roster towards that, despite the league shifting years ago to surrounding stars with shooting. It was their downfall, it didn't work.[/quote]

sam's definitely been behind on certain changes. a primary ball-handler like russell westbrook who cannot shoot is probably the definition of what you're talking about here-- and yet, you've been an ardent defender of westbrook despite his struggles.

[quote="hardenASG13"]1 game vs. Denver? He outplayed adams head to head as well. Can't play adams.[/quote]

portland abused westbrook by dropping pnr on him which gave kanter simple and easy defensive assignments. last night the nuggets missed a lot of threes. we'll see if that continues. por was able to not get hurt by keeping kanter in v. us because of westbrook's inability to shoot.[/quote]

1) simply not true. Who have they replaced Roberson with since his injury, or who did they have as a backup when he played that was a competent NBA player? Name him!

1a) wrong on Adams? I was the pretty much the first to call him out for being a joke for his contract on here. Was ridiculous at the time. Now it's a consensus.

1b) Kanter has proved me (and sleestak) right. Only idiot franchises like an OKC or NYK (similarly incompetent and poorly coached) can't find a use for a scorer/rebounder like Kanter. Just dont switch him onto star pgs in PnR on every screen. Not that hard to figure that out. Adams sucks at the same, also too slow to recover after he traps.

2) they were honestly still fine after the harden trade. Had some injuries, continued with the perkins/Roberson BS and later adams (2 complete non shooters, in a starting lineup with a poor shooting superstar athlete at PG. Yeah that makes sense! You and okc can site lineup data all you want, it was clear as day those bums were holding the team back from reaching its ceiling, along with poor coaching, the whole time.

3) you are right, Westbrook can't shoot, especially this season. He was better midrange and at the rim previously. He also happens to be the best athlete at his position, or maybe overall, the league has ever seen. There had to have been a way to capitalize on that. Wait, there was! Surround him with shooting and scoring, everywhere! Look at Milwaukee! Giannis is exactly what you describe, and couldn't even get out of the first rd until this year, when they brought in a bunch of shooting. Defensive stalwarts like brook Lopez, pat conoughton, Nicola mirotic, added to Middleton, Bledsoe. They had the best record in the league after surrounding giannis with shooting, after being the 7 seed the year before, in a really **** east. Think about Westbrook and KD surrounded by shooting at every spot! Lopez was had for nothing! When has okc even played a guy like conoughton?! We love our robes and Adams!

4) yes they did drop him back. They are doing similar things vs. Denver (no, they should be switching at the first offer of a screen and letting Murray isolate on him). It's been fine, his offense has helped make them really hard to guard. Those saying jokic has had monster games against him are pathetic(kizz). Jokic is likely a first team all NBA guy. He's gonna do that.....

hardenASG13 wrote:1) simply not true. Who have they replaced Roberson with since his injury, or who did they have as a backup when he played that was a competent NBA player? Name him!

you can't prove a negative. the fact of the matter is our starters went from +13.5pp100 to +9.1pp100 from last year with 'dre to this year. and that includes a huge upgrade at power forward with jerami grant supplanting carmelo anthony. the starters defense dropped by 8pp100. you have no more ground to stand on re: andre roberson's impact no matter who replaces him. there are star players in the nba who join teams and do not have 4pp100 impact.

hardenASG13 wrote:1a) wrong on Adams? I was the pretty much the first to call him out for being a joke for his contract on here. Was ridiculous at the time. Now it's a consensus.

adams' contract has aged poorly, especially relative to recent deals signed by nurkic and capela. adams can't help what he was paid by sam presti, though. your takes on adams are nonsensical when you call him a poor pick and roll defender, and other nonsense like that. or claim that nerlens noel is better than him. or javalle mcgee.

hardenASG13 wrote:1b) Kanter has proved me (and sleestak) right. Only idiot franchises like an OKC or NYK (similarly incompetent and poorly coached) can't find a use for a scorer/rebounder like Kanter. Just dont switch him onto star pgs in PnR on every screen. Not that hard to figure that out. Adams sucks at the same, also too slow to recover after he traps.

kanter was bad in utah too. he's had a few decent playoff games for portland. this is what i mean by claiming your victories too early. it's why most of your takes age poorly; because you lack perspective and you're extremely reactionary.

also worth noting is that kanter is in a contract year. do you know who jerome james was? look him up.

hardenASG13 wrote:2) they were honestly still fine after the harden trade. Had some injuries, continued with the perkins/Roberson BS and later adams (2 complete non shooters, in a starting lineup with a poor shooting superstar athlete at PG. Yeah that makes sense! You and okc can site lineup data all you want, it was clear as day those bums were holding the team back from reaching its ceiling, along with poor coaching, the whole time.

when you ignore actual things that actually happened (like, data) you can make up anything you want.

perkins / roberson b.s.? those guys never even were regular starters at the same time. in 2013-14, the final year that perkins was a full-time starter, thabo sefolosha was still around. and you know what? when thabo got injured and andre roberson stepped in for 16 games-- that lineup was better.

you do realize that lineup data is a reflection of what occurs on the basketball court, right? there's no interpretation to make. one team scored a lot more than the other team. andre roberson wasn't made a full-time starter until 2014-15 which is the season that kevin durant got hurt. during the games that season with the starters intact, they were +15.4pp100, the 3rd best starting lineup in the league. the following season, the team with those starters made the wcf and took a 72 win warriors team to seven games. you're 100% wrong, again, unless you ignore reality and make stuff up.

hardenASG13 wrote:3) you are right, Westbrook can't shoot, especially this season. He was better midrange and at the rim previously.

westbrook shot his best percentage at the rim this year of his career. do you not research anything you post before you post it?

hardenASG13 wrote:He also happens to be the best athlete at his position, or maybe overall, the league has ever seen. There had to have been a way to capitalize on that. Wait, there was! Surround him with shooting and scoring, everywhere! Look at Milwaukee! Giannis is exactly what you describe

giannis is 7' tall. if westbrook was 7' tall and was the best pick and roll finisher in the nba (and also played elite defense), this wouldn't be a question or a problem. giannis is a high usage scorer > 60% ts this year. this is the dumbest comparison i think you have ever made.

hardenASG13 wrote:Think about Westbrook and KD surrounded by shooting at every spot! Lopez was had for nothing! When has okc even played a guy like conoughton?! We love our robes and Adams!

guess what. the thunder starters this year performed better than the milwaukee starters this year. you know, the milwaukee starters with all that shooting surrounding giannis. better offensively, too. milwaukee crushes teams with their bench, and many of those lineups do not even contain giannis. it's their depth that eats teams alive.

starters last year with andre roberson crush the milwaukee starters with all their shooting. you once again are misinterpreting the thunder's problems. it was never adams and roberson. it's been the bench. any non-starting lineup gets crushed. that's the problem. but, i know you won't care about actual facts. so continue to believe what you want.

hardenASG13 wrote:4) yes they did drop him back. They are doing similar things vs. Denver (no, they should be switching at the first offer of a screen and letting Murray isolate on him). It's been fine, his offense has helped make them really hard to guard. Those saying jokic has had monster games against him are pathetic(kizz). Jokic is likely a first team all NBA guy. He's gonna do that.....

we'll see what continues to happen in the series. denver missed a lot of open threes in game 2. they're going to get a lot of open threes with portland keeping kanter in and him being too slow / ambivalent to defend the pnr properly or handle jokic properly.

you get dap for being correct about jerami grant. i think you need to calm down on all this other stuff though.

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:1) simply not true. Who have they replaced Roberson with since his injury, or who did they have as a backup when he played that was a competent NBA player? Name him!

you can't prove a negative. the fact of the matter is our starters went from +13.5pp100 to +9.1pp100 from last year with 'dre to this year. and that includes a huge upgrade at power forward with jerami grant supplanting carmelo anthony. the starters defense dropped by 8pp100. you have no more ground to stand on re: andre roberson's impact no matter who replaces him. there are star players in the nba who join teams and do not have 4pp100 impact.

hardenASG13 wrote:1a) wrong on Adams? I was the pretty much the first to call him out for being a joke for his contract on here. Was ridiculous at the time. Now it's a consensus.

adams' contract has aged poorly, especially relative to recent deals signed by nurkic and capela. adams can't help what he was paid by sam presti, though. your takes on adams are nonsensical when you call him a poor pick and roll defender, and other nonsense like that. or claim that nerlens noel is better than him. or javalle mcgee.

hardenASG13 wrote:1b) Kanter has proved me (and sleestak) right. Only idiot franchises like an OKC or NYK (similarly incompetent and poorly coached) can't find a use for a scorer/rebounder like Kanter. Just dont switch him onto star pgs in PnR on every screen. Not that hard to figure that out. Adams sucks at the same, also too slow to recover after he traps.

kanter was bad in utah too. he's had a few decent playoff games for portland. this is what i mean by claiming your victories too early. it's why most of your takes age poorly; because you lack perspective and you're extremely reactionary.

also worth noting is that kanter is in a contract year. do you know who jerome james was? look him up.

hardenASG13 wrote:2) they were honestly still fine after the harden trade. Had some injuries, continued with the perkins/Roberson BS and later adams (2 complete non shooters, in a starting lineup with a poor shooting superstar athlete at PG. Yeah that makes sense! You and okc can site lineup data all you want, it was clear as day those bums were holding the team back from reaching its ceiling, along with poor coaching, the whole time.

when you ignore actual things that actually happened (like, data) you can make up anything you want.

perkins / roberson b.s.? those guys never even were regular starters at the same time. in 2013-14, the final year that perkins was a full-time starter, thabo sefolosha was still around. and you know what? when thabo got injured and andre roberson stepped in for 16 games-- that lineup was better.

you do realize that lineup data is a reflection of what occurs on the basketball court, right? there's no interpretation to make. one team scored a lot more than the other team. andre roberson wasn't made a full-time starter until 2014-15 which is the season that kevin durant got hurt. during the games that season with the starters intact, they were +15.4pp100, the 3rd best starting lineup in the league. the following season, the team with those starters made the wcf and took a 72 win warriors team to seven games. you're 100% wrong, again, unless you ignore reality and make stuff up.

hardenASG13 wrote:3) you are right, Westbrook can't shoot, especially this season. He was better midrange and at the rim previously.

westbrook shot his best percentage at the rim this year of his career. do you not research anything you post before you post it?

hardenASG13 wrote:He also happens to be the best athlete at his position, or maybe overall, the league has ever seen. There had to have been a way to capitalize on that. Wait, there was! Surround him with shooting and scoring, everywhere! Look at Milwaukee! Giannis is exactly what you describe

giannis is 7' tall. if westbrook was 7' tall and was the best pick and roll finisher in the nba (and also played elite defense), this wouldn't be a question or a problem. giannis is a high usage scorer > 60% ts this year. this is the dumbest comparison i think you have ever made.

hardenASG13 wrote:Think about Westbrook and KD surrounded by shooting at every spot! Lopez was had for nothing! When has okc even played a guy like conoughton?! We love our robes and Adams!

guess what. the thunder starters this year performed better than the milwaukee starters this year. you know, the milwaukee starters with all that shooting surrounding giannis. better offensively, too. milwaukee crushes teams with their bench, and many of those lineups do not even contain giannis. it's their depth that eats teams alive.

starters last year with andre roberson crush the milwaukee starters with all their shooting. you once again are misinterpreting the thunder's problems. it was never adams and roberson. it's been the bench. any non-starting lineup gets crushed. that's the problem. but, i know you won't care about actual facts. so continue to believe what you want.

hardenASG13 wrote:4) yes they did drop him back. They are doing similar things vs. Denver (no, they should be switching at the first offer of a screen and letting Murray isolate on him). It's been fine, his offense has helped make them really hard to guard. Those saying jokic has had monster games against him are pathetic(kizz). Jokic is likely a first team all NBA guy. He's gonna do that.....

we'll see what continues to happen in the series. denver missed a lot of open threes in game 2. they're going to get a lot of open threes with portland keeping kanter in and him being too slow / ambivalent to defend the pnr properly or handle jokic properly.

you get dap for being correct about jerami grant. i think you need to calm down on all this other stuff though.

The thunder also had a huge downgrade at sg, admittedly, in Ferguson, who wasn't close to ready for the role he was given. Aside from January, he wasn't really even a rotation level player. Combine that with Russ being as bad as he's been, maybe ever shooting the ball and the lineup will be worse statistically, yes.

You're right adams can't help what he was paid. The fact remains I was roasted on this board for pointing out what a joke he is for his contract earlier this year. Now it's become blatantly obvious. He couldn't stay on the court in the playoffs, and creates nothing for himself or others. It's great having him clog the lane though and allowing a layup line on the other end.

Yes, kanter struggled in Utah too, as an 18-21 year old who didn't play college basketball. Hes slow footed on defense. He is and always has been extremely effective scoring the ball and rebounding. Nothing to do with a contract year.

The giannis comparison may be too hard for you to see, but he is a guy who cant shoot from the outside, imposes his athletic dominance, and collapses the D all game. He scores because he's a freak, just like Westbrook. Very similar. The team has taken off since surrounding him with shooters, both in the starting lineup and on the bench. Adams would barely play for them. Same with trash like roberson, thabo, ferguson and all the other okc staples. Okc butchered it.

Oh almost forgot to add. In today's episode of where relying on stats go wrong: Russell Westbrook shot the best he ever has this season at the rim! Find one person who agrees this was his best season scoring at the basket! Do you think it was? He was a far cry from his normal self finishing through any type of traffic, or in the post on his turnarounds. His percentage was probably high because he passed up layup attempts time and time again, often leading to turnovers, as he would jump or get there on the dribble, realize he was about to be blocked (not the case previously) and force a pass out, usually late shot clock, to a guy who couldn't make a play unless it was George, Schroeder, or depending on the game, grant. What a joke, I feel bad for you if you think it was his best year at the rim.

hardenASG13 wrote:The thunder also had a huge downgrade at sg, admittedly, in Ferguson, who wasn't close to ready for the role he was given. Aside from January, he wasn't really even a rotation level player. Combine that with Russ being as bad as he's been, maybe ever shooting the ball and the lineup will be worse statistically, yes.

there's no factual basis for this. you're making things up. er, yes, ferguson is way worse than andre roberson. duh! we'll all agree on that one. that's the point!

hardenASG13 wrote:You're right adams can't help what he was paid. The fact remains I was roasted on this board for pointing out what a joke he is for his contract earlier this year. Now it's become blatantly obvious. He couldn't stay on the court in the playoffs, and creates nothing for himself or others. It's great having him clog the lane though and allowing a layup line on the other end.

i told you the takes you were roasted for. obviously adams was overpaid a bit; he was signed prior to his RFA year, you're going to overpay a guy when you do that. he's an average starter at C, perhaps a bit above average. it'd be great to have a guy like that at $12 million like the blazers and rockets do-- but the timing of adams' extension / free agency would have precluded it no matter what.

adams is the best offensive rebounder in the nba the last two seasons. of course he creates for himself or others. without him in the middle doing that our offense would be significantly. worse.

hardenASG13 wrote:Yes, kanter struggled in Utah too, as an 18-21 year old who didn't play college basketball. Hes slow footed on defense. He is and always has been extremely effective scoring the ball and rebounding. Nothing to do with a contract year.

kanter was a cancer on defense his whole career, and has sorta been in portland too by the way (until nurkic got hurt). cherry picking a few playoff games isn't going to change anyone's mind especially in a contract year.

yes, he's decent at scoring and rebounding. but he's literally unplayable a lot of the time. as he was against houston and golden state.

hardenASG13 wrote:The giannis comparison may be too hard for you to see, but he is a guy who cant shoot from the outside, imposes his athletic dominance, and collapses the D all game. He scores because he's a freak, just like Westbrook. Very similar. The team has taken off since surrounding him with shooters, both in the starting lineup and on the bench. Adams would barely play for them. Same with trash like roberson, thabo, ferguson and all the other okc staples. Okc butchered it.

uh. yeah he can't shoot from the outside. but so what? he doesn't need to. he's a pnr handler and roll man and isolation guy all in one. westbrook can't isolate some dude in the post and score on them the way giannis can, or draw fouls like giannis can. giannis was doing this last year too. calling westbrook and giannis similar is the most bizarre thing i've ever heard.

andre roberson would probably play over malcom brogdan. so would prime thabo.

hardenASG13 wrote:Oh almost forgot to add. In today's episode of where relying on stats go wrong: Russell Westbrook shot the best he ever has this season at the rim! Find one person who agrees this was his best season scoring at the basket!

see this is the thing. this stuff is measurable. so we don't have to find anyone who agrees with anything. we have data.

hardenASG13 wrote:Do you think it was? He was a far cry from his normal self finishing through any type of traffic, or in the post on his turnarounds. His percentage was probably high because he passed up layup attempts time and time again, often leading to turnovers,

again. you can research this before posting it and looking foolish. westbrook attempted the same % of shots at the rim and inside 10 feet this year as he has done for the past 4-5 seasons and about the same for his career. yes, his turnaround jump shot was bad because his jump shot in general was bad, but i fail to see what that has to do with his performance at the rim.

you can't weasel out of this. it's just another example of you making an easily researchable claim without researching it.

hardenASG13 wrote:What a joke, I feel bad for you if you think it was his best year at the rim.

he shot his best percentage at the rim for his career. he attempted the same number of shots there relative to total fga as he generally does. he got to the line less and missed his free throws, i guess. but in terms of finishing at the rim and the frequency with which he did so: this is provable, dude. stop making things up.

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:The thunder also had a huge downgrade at sg, admittedly, in Ferguson, who wasn't close to ready for the role he was given. Aside from January, he wasn't really even a rotation level player. Combine that with Russ being as bad as he's been, maybe ever shooting the ball and the lineup will be worse statistically, yes.

there's no factual basis for this. you're making things up. er, yes, ferguson is way worse than andre roberson. duh! we'll all agree on that one. that's the point!

hardenASG13 wrote:You're right adams can't help what he was paid. The fact remains I was roasted on this board for pointing out what a joke he is for his contract earlier this year. Now it's become blatantly obvious. He couldn't stay on the court in the playoffs, and creates nothing for himself or others. It's great having him clog the lane though and allowing a layup line on the other end.

i told you the takes you were roasted for. obviously adams was overpaid a bit; he was signed prior to his RFA year, you're going to overpay a guy when you do that. he's an average starter at C, perhaps a bit above average. it'd be great to have a guy like that at $12 million like the blazers and rockets do-- but the timing of adams' extension / free agency would have precluded it no matter what.

adams is the best offensive rebounder in the nba the last two seasons. of course he creates for himself or others. without him in the middle doing that our offense would be significantly. worse.

hardenASG13 wrote:Yes, kanter struggled in Utah too, as an 18-21 year old who didn't play college basketball. Hes slow footed on defense. He is and always has been extremely effective scoring the ball and rebounding. Nothing to do with a contract year.

kanter was a cancer on defense his whole career, and has sorta been in portland too by the way (until nurkic got hurt). cherry picking a few playoff games isn't going to change anyone's mind especially in a contract year.

yes, he's decent at scoring and rebounding. but he's literally unplayable a lot of the time. as he was against houston and golden state.

hardenASG13 wrote:The giannis comparison may be too hard for you to see, but he is a guy who cant shoot from the outside, imposes his athletic dominance, and collapses the D all game. He scores because he's a freak, just like Westbrook. Very similar. The team has taken off since surrounding him with shooters, both in the starting lineup and on the bench. Adams would barely play for them. Same with trash like roberson, thabo, ferguson and all the other okc staples. Okc butchered it.

uh. yeah he can't shoot from the outside. but so what? he doesn't need to. he's a pnr handler and roll man and isolation guy all in one. westbrook can't isolate some dude in the post and score on them the way giannis can, or draw fouls like giannis can. giannis was doing this last year too. calling westbrook and giannis similar is the most bizarre thing i've ever heard.

andre roberson would probably play over malcom brogdan. so would prime thabo.

hardenASG13 wrote:Oh almost forgot to add. In today's episode of where relying on stats go wrong: Russell Westbrook shot the best he ever has this season at the rim! Find one person who agrees this was his best season scoring at the basket!

see this is the thing. this stuff is measurable. so we don't have to find anyone who agrees with anything. we have data.

hardenASG13 wrote:Do you think it was? He was a far cry from his normal self finishing through any type of traffic, or in the post on his turnarounds. His percentage was probably high because he passed up layup attempts time and time again, often leading to turnovers,

again. you can research this before posting it and looking foolish. westbrook attempted the same % of shots at the rim and inside 10 feet this year as he has done for the past 4-5 seasons and about the same for his career. yes, his turnaround jump shot was bad because his jump shot in general was bad, but i fail to see what that has to do with his performance at the rim.

you can't weasel out of this. it's just another example of you making an easily researchable claim without researching it.

hardenASG13 wrote:What a joke, I feel bad for you if you think it was his best year at the rim.

he shot his best percentage at the rim for his career. he attempted the same number of shots there relative to total fga as he generally does. he got to the line less and missed his free throws, i guess. but in terms of finishing at the rim and the frequency with which he did so: this is provable, dude. stop making things up.

you really don't understand that some statistics are not valid! Anyone who watched Russ this season could see he wasn't close to as effective attacking the rim this season as in previous years. Do all the research you want, those stats are incredibly misleading in this case. It's was painfully clear watching him play!

hardenASG13 wrote:

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:The thunder also had a huge downgrade at sg, admittedly, in Ferguson, who wasn't close to ready for the role he was given. Aside from January, he wasn't really even a rotation level player. Combine that with Russ being as bad as he's been, maybe ever shooting the ball and the lineup will be worse statistically, yes.

there's no factual basis for this. you're making things up. er, yes, ferguson is way worse than andre roberson. duh! we'll all agree on that one. that's the point!

hardenASG13 wrote:You're right adams can't help what he was paid. The fact remains I was roasted on this board for pointing out what a joke he is for his contract earlier this year. Now it's become blatantly obvious. He couldn't stay on the court in the playoffs, and creates nothing for himself or others. It's great having him clog the lane though and allowing a layup line on the other end.

i told you the takes you were roasted for. obviously adams was overpaid a bit; he was signed prior to his RFA year, you're going to overpay a guy when you do that. he's an average starter at C, perhaps a bit above average. it'd be great to have a guy like that at $12 million like the blazers and rockets do-- but the timing of adams' extension / free agency would have precluded it no matter what.

adams is the best offensive rebounder in the nba the last two seasons. of course he creates for himself or others. without him in the middle doing that our offense would be significantly. worse.

hardenASG13 wrote:Yes, kanter struggled in Utah too, as an 18-21 year old who didn't play college basketball. Hes slow footed on defense. He is and always has been extremely effective scoring the ball and rebounding. Nothing to do with a contract year.

kanter was a cancer on defense his whole career, and has sorta been in portland too by the way (until nurkic got hurt). cherry picking a few playoff games isn't going to change anyone's mind especially in a contract year.

yes, he's decent at scoring and rebounding. but he's literally unplayable a lot of the time. as he was against houston and golden state.

hardenASG13 wrote:The giannis comparison may be too hard for you to see, but he is a guy who cant shoot from the outside, imposes his athletic dominance, and collapses the D all game. He scores because he's a freak, just like Westbrook. Very similar. The team has taken off since surrounding him with shooters, both in the starting lineup and on the bench. Adams would barely play for them. Same with trash like roberson, thabo, ferguson and all the other okc staples. Okc butchered it.

uh. yeah he can't shoot from the outside. but so what? he doesn't need to. he's a pnr handler and roll man and isolation guy all in one. westbrook can't isolate some dude in the post and score on them the way giannis can, or draw fouls like giannis can. giannis was doing this last year too. calling westbrook and giannis similar is the most bizarre thing i've ever heard.

andre roberson would probably play over malcom brogdan. so would prime thabo.

hardenASG13 wrote:Oh almost forgot to add. In today's episode of where relying on stats go wrong: Russell Westbrook shot the best he ever has this season at the rim! Find one person who agrees this was his best season scoring at the basket!

see this is the thing. this stuff is measurable. so we don't have to find anyone who agrees with anything. we have data.

hardenASG13 wrote:Do you think it was? He was a far cry from his normal self finishing through any type of traffic, or in the post on his turnarounds. His percentage was probably high because he passed up layup attempts time and time again, often leading to turnovers,

again. you can research this before posting it and looking foolish. westbrook attempted the same % of shots at the rim and inside 10 feet this year as he has done for the past 4-5 seasons and about the same for his career. yes, his turnaround jump shot was bad because his jump shot in general was bad, but i fail to see what that has to do with his performance at the rim.

you can't weasel out of this. it's just another example of you making an easily researchable claim without researching it.

hardenASG13 wrote:What a joke, I feel bad for you if you think it was his best year at the rim.

he shot his best percentage at the rim for his career. he attempted the same number of shots there relative to total fga as he generally does. he got to the line less and missed his free throws, i guess. but in terms of finishing at the rim and the frequency with which he did so: this is provable, dude. stop making things up.

you really don't understand that some statistics are not valid! Anyone who watched Russ this season could see he wasn't close to as effective attacking the rim this season as in previous years. Do all the research you want, those stats are incredibly misleading in this case. It's was painfully clear watching him play!

misleading in what way?

here's a hypothetical argument: jerami grant was horrible shooting the ball this year. i'm guessing that had i made that argument to you (or, any rational person), your counterpoint would be that grant shot a career high 39.2% from three while attempting a moderately higher % of his shots from three above his career average.

but, no i say. anyone watching grant this year could see he wasn't close to as effective as he's been before as a shooter. do all the research you want, those stats are misleading.

of course they aren't misleading. and the same stats for westbrook are not, either. he shot a career high % at the rim at moderately higher frequency than his career.

and lets not pretend we haven't reached impasses like these before. a season ago, you told us repeatedly that playoff melo would show up. i'm sure you said the same thing about playoff schroder, but i can't be bothered to check. this is despite all the evidence stacked against your position. 'those stats don't apply!', you claimed in the moment. lo and behold, the season ends and you attribute your melo takes on being a fan of the team or some excuse like that.

you can't have proper discussion with people if you don't have any evidence. if you just want to have whatever opinions you want that's fine too, but you can't expect to present them without any evidence-- or contrary to evidence you've presented, and expect people to take it seriously.

slick_watts wrote:

hardenASG13 wrote:

slick_watts wrote:
there's no factual basis for this. you're making things up. er, yes, ferguson is way worse than andre roberson. duh! we'll all agree on that one. that's the point!



i told you the takes you were roasted for. obviously adams was overpaid a bit; he was signed prior to his RFA year, you're going to overpay a guy when you do that. he's an average starter at C, perhaps a bit above average. it'd be great to have a guy like that at $12 million like the blazers and rockets do-- but the timing of adams' extension / free agency would have precluded it no matter what.

adams is the best offensive rebounder in the nba the last two seasons. of course he creates for himself or others. without him in the middle doing that our offense would be significantly. worse.



kanter was a cancer on defense his whole career, and has sorta been in portland too by the way (until nurkic got hurt). cherry picking a few playoff games isn't going to change anyone's mind especially in a contract year.

yes, he's decent at scoring and rebounding. but he's literally unplayable a lot of the time. as he was against houston and golden state.



uh. yeah he can't shoot from the outside. but so what? he doesn't need to. he's a pnr handler and roll man and isolation guy all in one. westbrook can't isolate some dude in the post and score on them the way giannis can, or draw fouls like giannis can. giannis was doing this last year too. calling westbrook and giannis similar is the most bizarre thing i've ever heard.

andre roberson would probably play over malcom brogdan. so would prime thabo.



see this is the thing. this stuff is measurable. so we don't have to find anyone who agrees with anything. we have data.



again. you can research this before posting it and looking foolish. westbrook attempted the same % of shots at the rim and inside 10 feet this year as he has done for the past 4-5 seasons and about the same for his career. yes, his turnaround jump shot was bad because his jump shot in general was bad, but i fail to see what that has to do with his performance at the rim.

you can't weasel out of this. it's just another example of you making an easily researchable claim without researching it.



he shot his best percentage at the rim for his career. he attempted the same number of shots there relative to total fga as he generally does. he got to the line less and missed his free throws, i guess. but in terms of finishing at the rim and the frequency with which he did so: this is provable, dude. stop making things up.

you really don't understand that some statistics are not valid! Anyone who watched Russ this season could see he wasn't close to as effective attacking the rim this season as in previous years. Do all the research you want, those stats are incredibly misleading in this case. It's was painfully clear watching him play!

misleading in what way?

here's a hypothetical argument: jerami grant was horrible shooting the ball this year. i'm guessing that had i made that argument to you (or, any rational person), your counterpoint would be that grant shot a career high 39.2% from three while attempting a moderately higher % of his shots from three above his career average.

but, no i say. anyone watching grant this year could see he wasn't close to as effective as he's been before as a shooter. do all the research you want, those stats are misleading.

of course they aren't misleading. and the same stats for westbrook are not, either. he shot a career high % at the rim at moderately higher frequency than his career.

and lets not pretend we haven't reached impasses like these before. a season ago, you told us repeatedly that playoff melo would show up. i'm sure you said the same thing about playoff schroder, but i can't be bothered to check. this is despite all the evidence stacked against your position. 'those stats don't apply!', you claimed in the moment. lo and behold, the season ends and you attribute your melo takes on being a fan of the team or some excuse like that.

you can't have proper discussion with people if you don't have any evidence. if you just want to have whatever opinions you want that's fine too, but you can't expect to present them without any evidence-- or contrary to evidence you've presented, and expect people to take it seriously.

Haha stats aren't always evidence, they can and do measure things inaccurately, and would in the case of your Westbrook scenario, lead someone familiar with the statistic to question it's validity, since it was painfully clear this was far from Westbrooks best year at the rim anyone could see that, the stats you use as evidence are very misleading here.

I will again explicitly ask, and please answer this question. Do you believe that it was really his best season finishing at the rim, as you're "evidence" suggests? If yes, you are likely the only person on the planet who thinks so. If no, than you agree with my above paragraph, further proving your argument to be complete BS.

But anyway this is a thread about almost all of you denouncing kanter, who is showing to be more useful than adams in today's NBA.