ThunderBolt wrote:I’m a fan of the franchise more than particular players. Regardless of how you feel about russ, if he has massive success in Houston it will be a massive black mark on this franchise.
Will still root for Russ to have success in Houston but you are 100% right. It will show what we have been saying for years anyway : Presti bad roster construction vision, lack of shooters, drafting/signing only athletic guys etc etc, bad coaching staff etc etc.
Russ with 30+ years old and Harden is clearly a WAY worse duo than prime Westbrook and Durant (and think Ibaka was better than any 3rd player in Houston)
Could be a nice thing for Presti to open his eyes if Russ has success in Houston though. I trust Presti when it comes to trades and drafting but we won't get a championship with our poor coaching staff and if Presti keeps being stubborned by drafting almost only athletic guys believing that they could develop a decent shot over time (which almost never happens around the league)
Presti has made plenty of mistakes but he’s shown twice he’s capable of building a championship roster. Obviously the three mvp roster was championship caliber. The Ibaka for sabonis and Oladipo trade was the second time. That’s often overlooked like Presti got George for free. Even if Vic hadn’t developed into wha he is now, having Durant, Adams, Sabonis, Russ Vic, and Andre would have been elite. If we had added al Horford then we could have been unstoppable. Presti didn’t have the same options to build around Russ and George that he had for Durant and Russ. I’m not giving him a pass for move like Waiters, Kanter, Randy Foye, Melo and Schroder. Like I always say, the truth lies in the middle of the hot take extremes.
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m a fan of the franchise more than particular players. Regardless of how you feel about russ, if he has massive success in Houston it will be a massive black mark on this franchise.
Will still root for Russ to have success in Houston but you are 100% right. It will show what we have been saying for years anyway : Presti bad roster construction vision, lack of shooters, drafting/signing only athletic guys etc etc, bad coaching staff etc etc.
Russ with 30+ years old and Harden is clearly a WAY worse duo than prime Westbrook and Durant (and think Ibaka was better than any 3rd player in Houston)
Could be a nice thing for Presti to open his eyes if Russ has success in Houston though. I trust Presti when it comes to trades and drafting but we won't get a championship with our poor coaching staff and if Presti keeps being stubborned by drafting almost only athletic guys believing that they could develop a decent shot over time (which almost never happens around the league)
Presti has made plenty of mistakes but he’s shown twice he’s capable of building a championship roster. Obviously the three mvp roster was championship caliber. The Ibaka for sabonis and Oladipo trade was the second time. That’s often overlooked like Presti got George for free. Even if Vic hadn’t developed into wha he is now, having Durant, Adams, Sabonis, Russ Vic, and Andre would have been elite. If we had added al Horford then we could have been unstoppable. Presti didn’t have the same options to build around Russ and George that he had for Durant and Russ. I’m not giving him a pass for move like Waiters, Kanter, Randy Foye, Melo and Schroder. Like I always say, the truth lies in the middle of the hot take extremes.
Pretty much why Durant leaving and Westbrook asking for a trade is totally different.
Agree that Presti is able to build a championship roster and I think we didn't get one because of bad luck (3+ seasons of injuries, but think 2013 was supposed to be our year) and almost won in 2016 against one of the best team ever. Still think the coaching management is far from elite to say the least and that's a big problem.
Over the last 10 years I feel Presti biggest flaw was to wait too much before making changes : he waited too much to get rid of Scott Brooks (and did it at a very bad timing), he waited too much to trade Perkins (even if it was an horrible trade). This time Presti was forced to make the right move (rebuildng) otherwise he would have waited too much again by trying to compete with Russ and PG13 while we all knew it would be almost impossible to contend with this roster.
Anyway overall I'm fine with Presti and still think he's one of the best GMs in the league. I just wish we had someone else to take care about some basketball operations (coaching staff etc.). Do I want Billy Donovan to coach SGA and the new guys we will draft? Nope. I recognize our coaching staff did some good things to last few years : Grant developed into a good player, Ferguson is improving a lot (even if I'm low on him) and PG13 had a career year in OKC, so I guess they are not THAT terrible. Still hope we will end up making some changes though.
ThunderBolt wrote:Presti has made plenty of mistakes but he’s shown twice he’s capable of building a championship roster.
Huh? I'd say he's shown the complete opposite of what you're saying. He has shown the ability to acquire stars and an complete and utter inability to fill out rosters after getting those stars. He has been the Thunder's GM for what, 11 years? For how many of those seasons did it look like this team had a championship level supporting cast? Every single season we had the same damn issues. The team had to drag Perkins along for way too many seasons. It has been six seasons since we had a knowdown shooter from 3 on high enough volume. Killed our defense every time Kanter touched the court. And on and on the list goes. That's not bad luck. That's incompetence.
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
ThunderBolt wrote:Presti has made plenty of mistakes but he’s shown twice he’s capable of building a championship roster.
Huh? I'd say he's shown the complete opposite of what you're saying. He has shown the ability to acquire stars and an complete and utter inability to fill out rosters after getting those stars. He has been the Thunder's GM for what, 11 years? For how many of those seasons did it look like this team had a championship level supporting cast? Every single season we had the same damn issues. The team had to drag Perkins along for way too many seasons. It has been six seasons since we had a knowdown shooter from 3 on high enough volume. Killed our defense every time Kanter touched the court. And on and on the list goes. That's not bad luck. That's incompetence.
What I mean is despite his struggles to build a good supporting cast, I think we’ve had years where the roster has been good enough to win a championship even after losing Harden. Yes there were still turds like Kanter. I really think the 2016-17 roster with Vic would have been good enough to win a championship, especially if we add Taj Gibson add the deadline.
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
ThunderBolt wrote:Presti has made plenty of mistakes but he’s shown twice he’s capable of building a championship roster.
Huh? I'd say he's shown the complete opposite of what you're saying. He has shown the ability to acquire stars and an complete and utter inability to fill out rosters after getting those stars. He has been the Thunder's GM for what, 11 years? For how many of those seasons did it look like this team had a championship level supporting cast? Every single season we had the same damn issues. The team had to drag Perkins along for way too many seasons. It has been six seasons since we had a knowdown shooter from 3 on high enough volume. Killed our defense every time Kanter touched the court. And on and on the list goes. That's not bad luck. That's incompetence.
What I mean is despite his struggles to build a good supporting cast, I think we’ve had years where the roster has been good enough to win a championship even after losing Harden. Yes there were still turds like Kanter. I really think the 2016-17 roster with Vic would have been good enough to win a championship, especially if we add Taj Gibson add the deadline.
But doesn't that just reinforce my point? Our chances for a title hinged on Russ+KD carrying whatever we put around them. It's the 2016 Playoffs and our Playoff bench was Randy Foye, Dion Waiters and Enes Kanter. That is pathetic and not championship level worthy in the slightest.
Or let me put it this way: Don't trade for Paul George if you don't acquire a single NBA level wing in the two years following the trade even though you were down to Raymond Felton playing backup wing minutes in the postseason. What's the point of having stars/superstars if the rest of the roster is not close to enough to really attack and push for success?
"I don't know of any player that, when the shot goes up, he doesn't want it to go in," Donovan said
sam's been a different gm since kd left imo. if we're eliminating tanking as an option in 2016, then his performance since kd left has been fine. he lost kd for nothing! that should be a crippling blow for any team but we somehow still had a 4-5 srs team in 2017-18 before andre roberson went down. at some point you lose too much talent for nothing and what can you really do? i'm not sure there's a move to be made with the resources we had that would have offset losing 'dre for nothing. trading for dennis schroder was stupid and there would have been better alternatives-- but they're still marginal.
from 2012-13 through 2015-16, three of those years were derailed by injury (westbrook knee, durant foot, ibaka calf) and the fourth we had the most difficult run to a finals any team has faced in league history (10+ srs spurs and warriors back to back). sam presti's biggest blunders were made during that period. the 2016 deadline. trading james harden. trading a 1st for dion. no matter what sam did, two of those years are mulligans no matter what. maybe a better supporting cast gets us past the spurs in 13-14, who knows.
even though i didn't agree with trading for melo or schroder i think those moves mark an important change in sam presti's philosophy that has convinced me he's put aside some of these culture imperatives that held him back for so long. i didn't want sam presti around after kd left but now that we're finally rebuilding and it seems to me like he's done with the culture he created, i'm ok with him sticking around.
Pillendreher wrote: Huh? I'd say he's shown the complete opposite of what you're saying. He has shown the ability to acquire stars and an complete and utter inability to fill out rosters after getting those stars. He has been the Thunder's GM for what, 11 years? For how many of those seasons did it look like this team had a championship level supporting cast? Every single season we had the same damn issues. The team had to drag Perkins along for way too many seasons. It has been six seasons since we had a knowdown shooter from 3 on high enough volume. Killed our defense every time Kanter touched the court. And on and on the list goes. That's not bad luck. That's incompetence.
What I mean is despite his struggles to build a good supporting cast, I think we’ve had years where the roster has been good enough to win a championship even after losing Harden. Yes there were still turds like Kanter. I really think the 2016-17 roster with Vic would have been good enough to win a championship, especially if we add Taj Gibson add the deadline.
But doesn't that just reinforce my point? Our chances for a title hinged on Russ+KD carrying whatever we put around them. It's the 2016 Playoffs and our Playoff bench was Randy Foye, Dion Waiters and Enes Kanter. That is pathetic and not championship level worthy in the slightest.
Or let me put it this way: Don't trade for Paul George if you don't acquire a single NBA level wing in the two years following the trade even though you were down to Raymond Felton playing backup wing minutes in the postseason. What's the point of having stars/superstars if the rest of the roster is not close to enough to really attack and push for success?
I don't disagree and that's why I opted for a rebuild a long time ago. I don't think they ever had the ability to put cast around russ and pg but they did with Russ and Durant. Some of it was lack of assets and some of it was bad decisions by the front office. I wouldn't say OKC didn't have any good players besides Russ and KD. They just didn't have enough of them.
I look at it like this- Even if the thunder rebuild is successful, our top end talent will likely be below the talent level of Russ and KD. I guess what I'm hoping for is that we continue to flip guys like Gallianri, Dre and CP3 if possible for more assets. That way when we have our core in place, we still have plenty of assets to trade for quality role players to surround those guys. That doesn't absolve presti of the responsibility to hire a competent coach and make better decisions. I look at it like the saying "its easier to make money when you have money". However, even if you have money, one bad investment (kanter) can haunt you for years.
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
jake_swivel wrote:4. who people decide to root for rarely, if ever, has to do with morality. In this circumstance, it's not even logically inconsistent.
this is the crux of the argument. the details don't even matter. i'm not arguing for anyone to feel differently about russell westbrook demanding a trade to a rival or kevin durant leaving for a rival. it is not morally untenable to follow russell westbrook to houston. everyone can have the fan experience they want and let bygones be bygones. you're missing the point. it's morally untenable to do so after deriding fans for following kevin durant. which not everyone did but there was plenty of backlash even for the likes of anthony slater or others branded as snakes by association by the 'loyal' thunder fanbase who would stick with russell westbrook.
this all doesn't really matter enough to keep going on and on about it. but i just want the distinction understood.
Here's the thing about identifying instances of hypocrisy, it is so ubiquitous among humans generally and sports fans in particular that it hardly bears mentioning.
jake_swivel wrote:4. who people decide to root for rarely, if ever, has to do with morality. In this circumstance, it's not even logically inconsistent.
this is the crux of the argument. the details don't even matter. i'm not arguing for anyone to feel differently about russell westbrook demanding a trade to a rival or kevin durant leaving for a rival. it is not morally untenable to follow russell westbrook to houston. everyone can have the fan experience they want and let bygones be bygones. you're missing the point. it's morally untenable to do so after deriding fans for following kevin durant. which not everyone did but there was plenty of backlash even for the likes of anthony slater or others branded as snakes by association by the 'loyal' thunder fanbase who would stick with russell westbrook.
this all doesn't really matter enough to keep going on and on about it. but i just want the distinction understood.
Here's the thing about identifying instances of hypocrisy, it is so ubiquitous among humans generally and sports fans in particular that it hardly bears mentioning.
Exactly. Russ is a big competitor. How will OKC fans feel if he comes back and talks trash to Shai like he did with Lillard or commits a hard foul because he's mad?
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
I know is early but who do you think we should watch in college ? Pick yours guards, wings , and center to watch this year!, I dont think we get in the top 5 picks this year , I think we pick between 7 to 14
thor19 wrote:I know is early but who do you think we should watch in college ? Pick yours guards, wings , and center to watch this year!, I dont think we get in the top 5 picks this year , I think we pick between 7 to 14
I'm afraid to admit this, but I like LaMelo.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
thor19 wrote:I know is early but who do you think we should watch in college ? Pick yours guards, wings , and center to watch this year!, I dont think we get in the top 5 picks this year , I think we pick between 7 to 14
If Adams isn't part of Presti's long term plan maybe we look at drafting a center. Especially if our pick isn't great because we win too many games or get hosed in the lottery. Really good centers can be found with later picks. That option might be our best value for we are outside the top 5.
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
ThunderBolt wrote:If Adams isn't part of Presti's long term plan maybe we look at drafting a center. Especially if our pick isn't great because we win too many games or get hosed in the lottery. Really good centers can be found with later picks. That option might be our best value for we are outside the top 5.
When you can get the next Cole Aldrich you've gotta do it.
“If you're getting stops and you're making threes and the other team's not scoring, that's when you're going to see a huge point difference there,” coach Billy Donovan said.
thor19 wrote:I know is early but who do you think we should watch in college ? Pick yours guards, wings , and center to watch this year!, I dont think we get in the top 5 picks this year , I think we pick between 7 to 14
I'm afraid to admit this, but I like LaMelo.
The problem with LaMelo is his father dont think presti want Lavar
ThunderBolt wrote:If Adams isn't part of Presti's long term plan maybe we look at drafting a center. Especially if our pick isn't great because we win too many games or get hosed in the lottery. Really good centers can be found with later picks. That option might be our best value for we are outside the top 5.
I think centers are useless in today NBA unless they are dominate. The Thunder should be looking for Wings, Wings, & more Wings.
Anthony Edwards (Georgia), RJ Hampton (Australia) & Deni Avdija (Maccabi Tel Aviv) are guys on the short list.
ThunderBolt wrote:If Adams isn't part of Presti's long term plan maybe we look at drafting a center. Especially if our pick isn't great because we win too many games or get hosed in the lottery. Really good centers can be found with later picks. That option might be our best value for we are outside the top 5.
I think centers are useless in today NBA unless they are dominate. The Thunder should be looking for Wings, Wings, & more Wings.
Anthony Edwards (Georgia), RJ Hampton (Australia) & Deni Avdija (Maccabi Tel Aviv) are guys on the short list.
I think we've reached a point were centers are almost comically devalued. Perhaps the traditional center like Adams is antiquated but the position itself still has value. The amount of teams playing small ball has always been overstated. There aren't a ton of teams that can do what the warriors were able to do with small ball and curry is 31 years old now. I don't think it will last forever. I wouldn't mind a big that's more versatile than Adams.
bisme37 wrote:If there were magnets in basketballs so strong they changed the path of the ball as it flew through the air, wouldn't the ball then stick magnetically to the rim when it got there?
