Ranking best Thunder players [#3]

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Ranking best Thunder players [#3] 

Post#1 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:13 am

I'm starting a series of threads to rank our best players and also to discuss what there single best season was for OKC.

Criteria: Player must have played at least 3 years w/ OKC.

Try to remain as objective as possible.

:king: Kevin Durant
2. Russell Westbrook
3. ?

...

Please cast your votes down below and discuss which season you think was the best season for the player you are voting for.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#2 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:21 am

My vote is going to be for Harden. Ibaka was also in contention here, but just didn't have the same impact Harden did.

Best Thunder season was his 3rd season ('11-'12). Posted a 3.1 VORP and 4.3 BPM which is higher than any Ibaka ever registered. He won 6th man of the year that year and shot 49.1% from the field and 39% from 3 as well as a ridiculous 57.9% from 2 and also averaged 3.7 assists to 2.2 turnovers per game and averaged 6 FTAs per game.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#3 » by bondom34 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:20 am

I'd flip one and 2 to start. But if it's value to OKC only I think it might technically be PG. 2 seasons but he was an MVP candidate in one of them and Harden's rookie year wasn't really terribly high value. Given where he was in his career purely off that I'd lean PG.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#4 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:39 pm

I'll take MVPG.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#5 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:35 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:...

bondom34 wrote:...


I'm guessing you guys didn't even read the post. The criteria was they must have played 3 years in OKC.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#6 » by bondom34 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:28 pm

getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:...

bondom34 wrote:...


I'm guessing you guys didn't even read the post. The criteria was they must have played 3 years in OKC.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Wait what? Westbrook was top 5 for multiple seasons (at minimum very close and was absolutely in the discussion). Wasn't an objectivity thing, he's got an extra 2 seasons played and by 2016 had overtaken KD for that year.

Also KD wasn't ever the best player in the league either, peak for peak it was close and Westbrook played an extra few seasons in OKC. Overall value contributed would be greater to me given 10 seasons over 8, and if we're doing APM lists they ended up 6/7 (or 7/8 in regular) LA RAPM for the 5 year sample from 2011-16 and PIPM would tend to agree.

Durant (cut the last 3 seasons, where he wasn't in OKC):

Spoiler:
Image

Westbrook (cut the last season which is this year in Houston):

Spoiler:
Image

Unless you mean all time, in which case tbh KD isn't really there either and his main accomplishments to get there were awards not from OKC.

If it's 3 years it probably is Serge just because of longevity.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#7 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:08 pm

bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:...

bondom34 wrote:...


I'm guessing you guys didn't even read the post. The criteria was they must have played 3 years in OKC.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Wait what? Westbrook was top 5 for multiple seasons (at minimum very close and was absolutely in the discussion). Wasn't an objectivity thing, he's got an extra 2 seasons played and by 2016 had overtaken KD for that year.

Also KD wasn't ever the best player in the league either, peak for peak it was close and Westbrook played an extra few seasons in OKC. Overall value contributed would be greater to me given 10 seasons over 8, and if we're doing APM lists they ended up 6/7 (or 7/8 in regular) LA RAPM for the 5 year sample from 2011-16 and PIPM would tend to agree.

Durant (cut the last 3 seasons, where he wasn't in OKC):

Spoiler:
Image

Westbrook (cut the last season which is this year in Houston):

Spoiler:
Image

Unless you mean all time, in which case tbh KD isn't really there either and his main accomplishments to get there were awards not from OKC.

If it's 3 years it probably is Serge just because of longevity.


I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#8 » by bondom34 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:17 pm

getrichordie wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:

I'm guessing you guys didn't even read the post. The criteria was they must have played 3 years in OKC.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Wait what? Westbrook was top 5 for multiple seasons (at minimum very close and was absolutely in the discussion). Wasn't an objectivity thing, he's got an extra 2 seasons played and by 2016 had overtaken KD for that year.

Also KD wasn't ever the best player in the league either, peak for peak it was close and Westbrook played an extra few seasons in OKC. Overall value contributed would be greater to me given 10 seasons over 8, and if we're doing APM lists they ended up 6/7 (or 7/8 in regular) LA RAPM for the 5 year sample from 2011-16 and PIPM would tend to agree.

Durant (cut the last 3 seasons, where he wasn't in OKC):

Spoiler:
Image

Westbrook (cut the last season which is this year in Houston):

Spoiler:
Image

Unless you mean all time, in which case tbh KD isn't really there either and his main accomplishments to get there were awards not from OKC.

If it's 3 years it probably is Serge just because of longevity.


I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.

Yes. And for that given time accumulated overall, and similar peaks (PIPM has Westbrook's higher) Westbrook seems in the debate. I'm still not sure where he wasn't in top 10 or 15 discussion.

By 2016 to a lot of people he was better than Durant, they peaked fairly similarly, and one guy played 2 extra years. I don't think it's open and shut, and looking at PIPM which I know you've been using recently, Westbrook would have been ahead in that time.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#9 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:20 pm

bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Wait what? Westbrook was top 5 for multiple seasons (at minimum very close and was absolutely in the discussion). Wasn't an objectivity thing, he's got an extra 2 seasons played and by 2016 had overtaken KD for that year.

Also KD wasn't ever the best player in the league either, peak for peak it was close and Westbrook played an extra few seasons in OKC. Overall value contributed would be greater to me given 10 seasons over 8, and if we're doing APM lists they ended up 6/7 (or 7/8 in regular) LA RAPM for the 5 year sample from 2011-16 and PIPM would tend to agree.

Durant (cut the last 3 seasons, where he wasn't in OKC):

Spoiler:
Image

Westbrook (cut the last season which is this year in Houston):

Spoiler:
Image

Unless you mean all time, in which case tbh KD isn't really there either and his main accomplishments to get there were awards not from OKC.

If it's 3 years it probably is Serge just because of longevity.


I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.

Yes. And for that given time accumulated overall, and similar peaks (PIPM has Westbrook's higher) Westbrook seems in the debate. I'm still not sure where he wasn't in top 10 or 15 discussion.

By 2016 to a lot of people he was better than Durant, they peaked fairly similarly, and one guy played 2 extra years. I don't think it's open and shut, and looking at PIPM which I know you've been using recently, Westbrook would have been ahead in that time.


I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players [#3] 

Post#10 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:21 pm

As far as PIPM goes, Durant kind of took a backseat to Westbrook so I’m not putting much stock into that TBH. Westbrook wasn’t the best fit for Durant IMO.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#11 » by bondom34 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:34 pm

getrichordie wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.

Yes. And for that given time accumulated overall, and similar peaks (PIPM has Westbrook's higher) Westbrook seems in the debate. I'm still not sure where he wasn't in top 10 or 15 discussion.

By 2016 to a lot of people he was better than Durant, they peaked fairly similarly, and one guy played 2 extra years. I don't think it's open and shut, and looking at PIPM which I know you've been using recently, Westbrook would have been ahead in that time.


I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.

KD's not there either. And the accomplishments that got him anywhere near top 20 aren't from OKC.

getrichordie wrote:As far as PIPM goes, Durant kind of took a backseat to Westbrook so I’m not putting much stock into that TBH. Westbrook wasn’t the best fit for Durant IMO.


Well good thing we've got RAPM that feels similar. Maybe Durant not being able to win without an MVP caliber point guard shows his impact is a bit dampened from his ability to iso score. I'm confused why PIPM is good enough to determine all NBA teams and not to differentiate here.

I don't think it's for certain either way, and know Westbrook might well be the minority opinion, but he's got an extra 2 full seasons, one of which was an MVP level year. Don't think it's open and shut.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#12 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:31 pm

bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Yes. And for that given time accumulated overall, and similar peaks (PIPM has Westbrook's higher) Westbrook seems in the debate. I'm still not sure where he wasn't in top 10 or 15 discussion.

By 2016 to a lot of people he was better than Durant, they peaked fairly similarly, and one guy played 2 extra years. I don't think it's open and shut, and looking at PIPM which I know you've been using recently, Westbrook would have been ahead in that time.


I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.

KD's not there either. And the accomplishments that got him anywhere near top 20 aren't from OKC.

getrichordie wrote:As far as PIPM goes, Durant kind of took a backseat to Westbrook so I’m not putting much stock into that TBH. Westbrook wasn’t the best fit for Durant IMO.


Well good thing we've got RAPM that feels similar. Maybe Durant not being able to win without an MVP caliber point guard shows his impact is a bit dampened from his ability to iso score. I'm confused why PIPM is good enough to determine all NBA teams and not to differentiate here.

I don't think it's for certain either way, and know Westbrook might well be the minority opinion, but he's got an extra 2 full seasons, one of which was an MVP level year. Don't think it's open and shut.


I think you are in the overall minority. If you are just talking Thunder fans, you are probably in majority. Again, this is not about accumulative years. It is who was the best player while they were here hence Harden > Ibaka.

I think PIPM is a really strong stat that measures impact outside of counting stats, but circumstances must be taken into account as well. I.E. Porzingis over Siakam as Siakam had better team around him.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#13 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:46 pm

getrichordie wrote:
I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.



I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.


Which is it? Can’t really have a discussion without consistent criteria.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#14 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:51 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.



I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.


Which is it? Can’t really have a discussion without consistent criteria.


Context, man. That was about KD v. Westbrook not this entire thread.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#15 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:04 pm

getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I’m talking about who was the best while they were here. Not longevity and accumulative contributions.



I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.


Which is it? Can’t really have a discussion without consistent criteria.


Context, man. That was about KD v. Westbrook not this entire thread.


It’s not that long of a thread.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#16 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:07 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:



Which is it? Can’t really have a discussion without consistent criteria.


Context, man. That was about KD v. Westbrook not this entire thread.


It’s not that long of a thread.


Okay...?

Must I repeat myself?

One thing was in regards to a discussion surrounding a Westbrook and KD as an aside.

The other was in regards to the criteria for the players we can choose.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#17 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:16 pm

getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Context, man. That was about KD v. Westbrook not this entire thread.


It’s not that long of a thread.


Okay...?

Must I repeat myself?

One thing was in regards to a discussion surrounding a Westbrook and KD as an aside.

The other was in regards to the criteria for the players we can choose.


I would rather you not repeat yourself.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Your thread is about “our” best players and their “single best season” for okc. Kd’s accomplishments are greatly enhanced by what happened after he left. His all time ranking of being a top 10-15 player shouldn’t really be a factor in this discussion. You are the one that brought that up.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#18 » by getrichordie » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:20 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
It’s not that long of a thread.


Okay...?

Must I repeat myself?

One thing was in regards to a discussion surrounding a Westbrook and KD as an aside.

The other was in regards to the criteria for the players we can choose.


I would rather you not repeat yourself.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Your thread is about “our” best players and their “single best season” for okc. Kd’s accomplishments are greatly enhanced by what happened after he left. His all time ranking of being a top 10-15 player shouldn’t really be a factor in this discussion. You are the one that brought that up.


Well, you don’t just suddenly get lumped into top 10, top 15 discussion out of nowhere. Durant has, was, and will always be the better player. Nothing Westbrook has done or will do can change that. That’s just the objective consensus.

If you don’t like using that as logic, then Durant was always in discussion for #1 and #2 best player in the league before Giannis/Kawhi came along.

Westbrook was never apart of that discussion.

You need to re-read thread. I specifically talked about who was best player and asked to discuss best season. I didn’t ask to rank best seasons...
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#19 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:34 pm

getrichordie wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
Okay...?

Must I repeat myself?

One thing was in regards to a discussion surrounding a Westbrook and KD as an aside.

The other was in regards to the criteria for the players we can choose.


I would rather you not repeat yourself.

And I get the Westbrook love, but that's why I said to try and remain objective. KD is clearly the better player. Westbrook has never been in conversation for best in the league nor has he sniffed top 10/top 15 discussion.

Your thread is about “our” best players and their “single best season” for okc. Kd’s accomplishments are greatly enhanced by what happened after he left. His all time ranking of being a top 10-15 player shouldn’t really be a factor in this discussion. You are the one that brought that up.


Well, you don’t just suddenly get lumped into top 10, top 15 discussion out of nowhere. Durant has, was, and will always be the better player. Nothing Westbrook has done or will do can change that. That’s just the objective consensus.

If you don’t like using that as logic, then Durant was always in discussion for #1 and #2 best player in the league before Giannis/Kawhi came along.

Westbrook was never apart of that discussion.

You need to re-read thread. I specifically talked about who was best player and asked to discuss best season. I didn’t ask to rank best seasons...


You’re splitting hairs with this. “Who is better, MJ or Lebron? Discuss their best season but don’t rank them”...what’s the point of that?

FWIW, I would pick Durant’s mvp season of russ’. However discussing their time and legacy in okc and what it means to the organization compared with how they viewed historically are two entirely different conversations.
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Re: Ranking best Thunder players -- #3 

Post#20 » by bondom34 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:15 pm

getrichordie wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
getrichordie wrote:
I’m talking about top 10, top 15 discussion of all time.

KD's not there either. And the accomplishments that got him anywhere near top 20 aren't from OKC.

getrichordie wrote:As far as PIPM goes, Durant kind of took a backseat to Westbrook so I’m not putting much stock into that TBH. Westbrook wasn’t the best fit for Durant IMO.


Well good thing we've got RAPM that feels similar. Maybe Durant not being able to win without an MVP caliber point guard shows his impact is a bit dampened from his ability to iso score. I'm confused why PIPM is good enough to determine all NBA teams and not to differentiate here.

I don't think it's for certain either way, and know Westbrook might well be the minority opinion, but he's got an extra 2 full seasons, one of which was an MVP level year. Don't think it's open and shut.


I think you are in the overall minority. If you are just talking Thunder fans, you are probably in majority. Again, this is not about accumulative years. It is who was the best player while they were here hence Harden > Ibaka.

I think PIPM is a really strong stat that measures impact outside of counting stats, but circumstances must be taken into account as well. I.E. Porzingis over Siakam as Siakam had better team around him.

2012 Harden wasn't that level of good.

And you're ignoring context yourself. Westbrook had better impact numbers with the same basic teams.

Also that use for Siakam is not how to give context at all.

Edited for a capitalization but:

Context for impact metrics isn't "X had a better team around him", it's "X's role was larger/smaller/similar in type". Siakam is a larger part of Toronto's offense than Porzingis, who's not the primary focus of a defense or a heavy creator.

Also, the top 10/15 point made to ThunderBolt above didn't really make sense, it's either valid for both or neither. And if it's who's highest all time I'd say Harden's then ahead of Westbrook by a little, but again not because of his time in OKC.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...

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