New Head Coach?

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Stick with Billy or Go a new direction?

Poll ended at Wed Aug 5, 2020 6:14 am

Stick with Billy
3
43%
New Head Coach
4
57%
 
Total votes: 7

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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#41 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:12 am

So Donovan is just guessing now? What the hell?

What improvement are you looking for? What's the goalpost?

We've exceeded expectations in my mind given the roster composition each year Donovan has been coach.

Brooks is not a better coach. Why are we saying he is better at player development? He notoriously didn't give Lamb minutes... and then Lamb suddenly looks like a solid player in Indiana...

How the hell has Donovan failed to develop his young players? Show me hard evidence.

What's your idea if you are the head coach? Are you not listening to or adjusting to your star players? Are you content with forcing players to run your plays and making them unhappy? Do you want to run an offense you don't have the personnel for?

Donovan has very zero control over the personnel he is given and I'm sure Presti has some say on who gets minutes and who doesn't whether you think that's a good idea or not...

This sort of criticism of Donovan is just illogical and unwarranted...

Hindsight is 20/20 in terms of seeing Adams' wear down. Noel was not good in his minutes last year which is why I'm sure Donovan played Adams more... because you know... they were actually trying to win a ship. You must not remember or did not know how bad Noel was in Dallas in '17-'18...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#42 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:55 am

getrichordie wrote:So Donovan is just guessing now? What the hell?

What improvement are you looking for? What's the goalpost?

We've exceeded expectations in my mind given the roster composition each year Donovan has been coach.

Brooks is not a better coach. Why are we saying he is better at player development? He notoriously didn't give Lamb minutes... and then Lamb suddenly looks like a solid player in Indiana...

How the hell has Donovan failed to develop his young players? Show me hard evidence.

What's your idea if you are the head coach? Are you not listening to or adjusting to your star players? Are you content with forcing players to run your plays and making them unhappy? Do you want to run an offense you don't have the personnel for?

Donovan has very zero control over the personnel he is given and I'm sure Presti has some say on who gets minutes and who doesn't whether you think that's a good idea or not...

This sort of criticism of Donovan is just illogical and unwarranted...

Hindsight is 20/20 in terms of seeing Adams' wear down. Noel was not good in his minutes last year which is why I'm sure Donovan played Adams more... because you know... they were actually trying to win a ship. You must not remember or did not know how bad Noel was in Dallas in '17-'18...

People were calling for reduced minutes for Adams every year. And different lineups. Every single year people said he wore down.

So to be clear, Donovan gets no blame for a stagnant offense, Adams wearing down every year, Ferguson and Diallo looking awful, every role player coming and looking like he forgot what basketball is (Patterson, Morris) the lack of any non-Shai really promising youth, a poor shot profile, and no changes from the guy who was fired.

If the bar is literally this low a chair could do it.

If the idea is he's just never done anything wrong when yearly we've called him for lineups and player development and stagnant offense right here, and every year there's excuses made, that's illogical. If he has no control over players or lineups or what they do then it sounds like he's a figurehead and doesn't do anything. And if Presti is to blame for the roster, great then I assume Presti shoudl be fired. So why is he there?
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#43 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 4:57 am

The goal seems to be "he's not to blame for anything but hasn't really done anything". Well if he hasn't done anything and lets the players decide what they want to do I'm not sure why he's paid so well.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#44 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:57 am

LOL! So because "people" were calling for reduced minutes, the Thunder organization as a whole should just acquiesce? Imagine if fans could run the team. What a joke that would be. Different lineups? Like what? Let me guess, another hindsight is 20/20 comment?

Where's the evidence that offense stagnated under Donovan more so than Brooks? Look, I've been clear in the past about how difficult it is to do anything offensively when you have 2-3 players who can't shoot it from deep on the floor at the same time (Westbrook, Roberson, Adams). And in many instances, there were 4 players who couldn't shoot it from outside -- though that's tough to blame on Donovan as Presti acquires the talent.

And you are really gonna blame Patterson being **** on Donovan? When players play good, it's the players. When they are ****, it's the coach. Do you not see the theme/pattern here? You gonna blame Melo's **** play on Donovan too? And what a reach on Morris who played 24 games...

Show me another team that succeeds in that scenario. If there is some, it's few and *far* between.

Outside of PG and KD, who were the best floor spacers for our team in previous years?

Alex Abrines?
Abdel Nader?
DJ Augustin?
Anthony Morrow?
Enes Kanter?

Yeah, not appealing at all. Look. The offense clearly was stagnant because of Westbrook's inability to be efficient from 3, and in my opinion, Westbrook's high-usage play-style having a negative effect on shooters. When you couple that with having an Andre Roberson playing alongside Westbrook for lengthy stretches and a lack of talent behind Roberson, this is what you get. What are you expecting Donovan to do with that?

So I challenge you again... what team has succeeded with 3 players playing heavy minutes who can't space the floor/shoot it from outside?
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#45 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:10 am

Oh, yeah, and I forgot that you yourself (Bondom) said that Ferguson shouldn't have been a FRP. You felt like we should have gone after Anunoby. That's on Presti, not Donovan. That kids a head-case, it seems.
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#46 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:17 am

Don't get me started on Diallo. Kid was locked in late 2nd for a reason...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#47 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:34 am

getrichordie wrote:LOL! So because "people" were calling for reduced minutes, the Thunder organization as a whole should just acquiesce? Imagine if fans could run the team. What a joke that would be. Different lineups? Like what? Let me guess, another hindsight is 20/20 comment?

Where's the evidence that offense stagnated under Donovan more so than Brooks? Look, I've been clear in the past about how difficult it is to do anything offensively when you have 2-3 players who can't shoot it from deep on the floor at the same time (Westbrook, Roberson, Adams). And in many instances, there were 4 players who couldn't shoot it from outside -- though that's tough to blame on Donovan as Presti acquires the talent.

And you are really gonna blame Patterson being **** on Donovan? When players play good, it's the players. When they are ****, it's the coach. Do you not see the theme/pattern here? You gonna blame Melo's **** play on Donovan too? And what a reach on Morris who played 24 games...

Show me another team that succeeds in that scenario. If there is some, it's few and *far* between.

Outside of PG and KD, who were the best floor spacers for our team in previous years?

Alex Abrines?
Abdel Nader?
DJ Augustin?
Anthony Morrow?
Enes Kanter?

Yeah, not appealing at all. Look. The offense clearly was stagnant because of Westbrook's inability to be efficient from 3, and in my opinion, Westbrook's high-usage play-style having a negative effect on shooters. When you couple that with having an Andre Roberson playing alongside Westbrook for lengthy stretches and a lack of talent behind Roberson, this is what you get. What are you expecting Donovan to do with that?

So I challenge you again... what team has succeeded with 3 players playing heavy minutes who can't space the floor/shoot it from outside?

So the stance Donovan hasn't been an issue, has changed a ton from Brooks, and Presti should be fired for such an awful roster. And you said nobody was calling for it. Many were. Now it doesn't matter that they were.

And you are really gonna blame Patterson being **** on Donovan? When players play good, it's the players. When they are ****, it's the coach. Do you not see the theme/pattern here? You gonna blame Melo's **** play on Donovan too? And what a reach on Morris who played 24 games...


If you're crediting PG, Nader, Schroder, and Noel for improving yeah you credit the other direction too. The pattern I see is that naming some garbage players who became decent rotation pieces as "improved" and writing off guys who were good and turned to crap.

And the offense remains stagnant now. There's no passing and a ton of isolation. If your issue is "the team needed shooters" great. Fire Presti. But they're 3rd in iso frequency, 4th to last in movement on offense, 3rd to last in shot quality, and middle of the pack in passes made. Its stagnant and midrange heavy. To add they're shooting 35.5% for 3 this season. So apparently guys really couldn't shoot because of Westbrook because last year it was **checks notes** 34.8% with PG having no shoulders half a season.

But Donovan hasn't changed a thing from the guy they fired. If you keep moving goalposts to where he's just not to blame because of the roster, when every year's been underachieving yeah he's gonna look great. When people who have nothing in it look, they say he's a below average coach (see Hollinger and Duncan).


getrichordie wrote:Oh, yeah, and I forgot that you yourself (Bondom) said that Ferguson shouldn't have been a FRP. You felt like we should have gone after Anunoby. That's on Presti, not Donovan. That kids a head-case, it seems.


So fire Presti! OK then. But I thought Donovan was great at development? Except so was the guy they fired, and he was better at it.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#48 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:35 am

I guess the goal is now a stagnant midrange shooting offense for a while, while the players control everything. Which is clearly what great coaching looks like. Hire me if you really want that.

Also note Durant even saying he wasn't good.

Read on Twitter


Though at this point I think we should drop it. This isn't going anywhere. But what Thunderbolt said is it. If the goal is mediocrity, great. But right now it shouldn't be.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#49 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:55 am

Oh, boy. Durant didn't like playing for Donovan. Durant doesn't like a lot of things. That has zero value in terms of evaluating a coach.

Would love to hear your argument for Brooks being better at developing players than Donovan...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#50 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:56 am

And you still haven't provided evidence of ISO/this level of passing being a detriment...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#51 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:58 am

Oh, and as of current, our W/L% is better than last year's. How many people thought that would happen? I'd say that's an improvement over expectations
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#52 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:31 am

getrichordie wrote:Oh, boy. Durant didn't like playing for Donovan. Durant doesn't like a lot of things. That has zero value in terms of evaluating a coach.

Would love to hear your argument for Brooks being better at developing players than Donovan...

Because they had more players develop? Jackson, Kanter, McGary, and a few stars to name them. And that's without actually thinking hard.

And glad it doesn't matter stars didn't like him. Who needs stars.

getrichordie wrote:And you still haven't provided evidence of ISO/this level of passing being a detriment...


You're right. Brooks's offense was perfect and he shouldn't have been fired. Clearly that's the offense to go with. I thought things supposedly changed, and alas.

getrichordie wrote:Oh, and as of current, our W/L% is better than last year's. How many people thought that would happen? I'd say that's an improvement over expectations


And as I've said before, wins this season weren't relevant. As well nobody thought it would happen because they assumed injury and/or trades. Last year Paul and Westbrook were pretty darn close per minute, Paul's played more this season than Westbrook in terms of minutes. And PG had 0 shoulders for half of last year. But yay for being mediocre and getting a worse draft pick?
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#53 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 2:47 pm

Turning star into "stars" was a nice touch.

Kanter was good in UTA before coming to OKC.

You want to point to McGary? Really? Have fun with arguing that....

And Reggie Jackson is questionable. His trajectory as a role player was clear based on improvement year-over-year at Boston College. He had his best season AFTER he left OKC. I'll give Brooks half credit on this one for giving him meaningful minutes in his last 2 seasons w/OKC.

Wins might not be relevant in your opinion, but our W/L% is still better than expectations, no matter how you want to spin it... it's actually better than last year's too... again, no one expected that. No one.
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#54 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:27 pm

It was better than expectations because expectations were trades and injuries. If you didn't think CP3 and Gallo and Shai were good basketball players, IDK what to tell anyone who thought so. And Reggie was having a likely better year at 24 than Schroder now. McGary wasn't great, but looked useful for a 20s pick which is more than they've seen since. So yes, I'd point to the players who improved to say who improved.

But I sure am glad he taught CP3 how to be a point guard.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#55 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:48 pm

The fact that you overtly misrepresent Donovan by sarcastically stating that he taught CP3 how to play point tells me all I need to know...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#56 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 5:49 pm

If Bazley improves next year or Shai improves next year, let me guess, you'll find a way to not credit Donovan...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#57 » by ThunderBolt » Sat Aug 1, 2020 6:06 pm

getrichordie wrote:If Bazley improves next year or Shai improves next year, let me guess, you'll find a way to not credit Donovan...

I’ll give Donovan some credit if bazley improves significantly.
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#58 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:03 pm

getrichordie wrote:The fact that you overtly misrepresent Donovan by sarcastically stating that he taught CP3 how to play point tells me all I need to know...

And you saying Schroder improving this year and Paul George are credits to Donovan says something. You've had this weird love for Donovan since day 1 and he's been overall a bad coach.

getrichordie wrote:If Bazley improves next year or Shai improves next year, let me guess, you'll find a way to not credit Donovan...


Bazeley I'd expect a 2nd year improvement, he's been quite bad in general this year. Shai, yeah if he keeps improving that's a credit. A credit Brooks did with 3 separate players and got fired for, but a credit.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#59 » by bondom34 » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:05 pm

I'm kind of amazed that we've got guys in their late 20s becoming not awful players and one guy who went from MVP caliber, to snapping his leg, back to MVP caliber and the conclusion is it's coaching. And that when saying "nobody called for something" the reply to when people called for it is that who cares what fans said. It's almost like he's incapable of being anything but perfect.

Remember the lineup issues for years? The insane Waiters minutes? The Schroder minutes? The Melo minutes? The no Noel minutes?

Yeah, if Shai becomes an even more improved player, that's great. The guy they fired did it w/ 3 guys.
FoundANewSlant wrote:it's really fundamental defensive flaws exhibited here by Westbrook, PG, and Adams that put Melo into vulnerable positions here yet you can't recognize or explain it.

So Paul George is the reason Carmelo Anthony struggled on defense all these years...
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Re: New Head Coach? 

Post#60 » by getrichordie » Sat Aug 1, 2020 7:07 pm

So you say that about Bazley but not McGary? Double standard. And I pointed to evidence that George was better under Donovan... and Schroder did improve, but let's sweep that under the rug too
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