2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#61 » by Devilanche » Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:44 pm

It’s probably means this is the last season we can take . Both from an rest of nba opinion point of view and from an SGA can’t wait that long point of view.

There will always be talks of why can’t they just trade their picks for others, why nvr draft up for better players , etc etc etc.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#62 » by Dn4sty » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:09 pm

Old Man Game wrote:Presti starting to get more heat for a blatant tank job. This closely tracks with what Amin El Hassan had said about him after the draft. It's like Process sixers on steroids.

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-process-is-still-alive-in-oklahoma-city-where-the-thunder-have-all-but-opted-out-of-nba-competition-203602328.html

You have to wonder what the long term reception to this is going to be. Durant Westbrook and Harden isn't happening again. Ever. That's a once in a lifetime type of haul. We've got to have more than just 'bites at the apple' or whatever from the draft. That's part of the reason I was so annoyed about trading Sengun for yet more firsts. Advanced metrics had that kid as one of the best players in this draft, he falls into your lap and you launch him into orbit with Houston?


I feel like you’ve got an increasingly big axe to grind against OKC.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#63 » by Old Man Game » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:26 pm

Dn4sty wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:Presti starting to get more heat for a blatant tank job. This closely tracks with what Amin El Hassan had said about him after the draft. It's like Process sixers on steroids.

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-process-is-still-alive-in-oklahoma-city-where-the-thunder-have-all-but-opted-out-of-nba-competition-203602328.html

You have to wonder what the long term reception to this is going to be. Durant Westbrook and Harden isn't happening again. Ever. That's a once in a lifetime type of haul. We've got to have more than just 'bites at the apple' or whatever from the draft. That's part of the reason I was so annoyed about trading Sengun for yet more firsts. Advanced metrics had that kid as one of the best players in this draft, he falls into your lap and you launch him into orbit with Houston?


I feel like you’ve got an increasingly big axe to grind against OKC.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#64 » by Old Man Game » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:28 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:Oh no. Select media members that don't have a clue are being critical. We can't draft three mvps so we should just be happy to be blessed with a franchise and draft 13th like the spurs.

Also, who was Philly's young all star they gave a max contract to during the process? Year two of our rebuild hasn't even started yet. Until the last 30 or so games of the games, the team was overachieving.These types of takes are so poorly researched.

Fourteen other teams passed on Sengun. A couple of prominent media members really liked him. Several others didn't. It's not like we traded down from six to twenty. We've drafted 7 players the last two years, Poku, Krejci, Theo, Giddey, JRE, Mann and Wiggins. We're never going to make click bait national media happy.
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I'm just curious how long they can keep this up and if there is an alternative plan to build this roster. Because I'm skeptical this is going to work without a lot of luck, and to me, luck isn't a strategy.

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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#65 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 3:41 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:Oh no. Select media members that don't have a clue are being critical. We can't draft three mvps so we should just be happy to be blessed with a franchise and draft 13th like the spurs.

Also, who was Philly's young all star they gave a max contract to during the process? Year two of our rebuild hasn't even started yet. Until the last 30 or so games of the games, the team was overachieving.These types of takes are so poorly researched.

Fourteen other teams passed on Sengun. A couple of prominent media members really liked him. Several others didn't. It's not like we traded down from six to twenty. We've drafted 7 players the last two years, Poku, Krejci, Theo, Giddey, JRE, Mann and Wiggins. We're never going to make click bait national media happy.
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I'm just curious how long they can keep this up and if there is an alternative plan to build this roster. Because I'm skeptical this is going to work without a lot of luck, and to me, luck isn't a strategy.

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What’s the alternative? What successful teams don’t have some luck along the way?
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#66 » by bondom34 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:23 pm

Luck is why you collect picks. Because if the strategy is "we only really need 1 shot" you end up missing more than you hit.

And I don't really see a ton of credible criticism of it at this point. They've been in the lottery *checks notes* 1 year. Yes, it was an ugly 25ish games, but if you're caving into pressure after 25 games they shouldn't have started a rebuild in the first place and just kept running back a first round exit.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#67 » by thedoppelganger » Tue Aug 10, 2021 4:24 pm

Read on Twitter

"The Oklahoma City Thunder announced today that Nick Collison will be named Special Assistant to Executive Vice President and General Manager Sam Presti."

Also, not surprised Morrow is still connected with us although his title as "Lifestyle Services and Engagement Associate" is pretty funny.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#68 » by Old Man Game » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:10 pm

bondom34 wrote:Luck is why you collect picks. Because if the strategy is "we only really need 1 shot" you end up missing more than you hit.

And I don't really see a ton of credible criticism of it at this point. They've been in the lottery *checks notes* 1 year. Yes, it was an ugly 25ish games, but if you're caving into pressure after 25 games they shouldn't have started a rebuild in the first place and just kept running back a first round exit.


Are you all serious? Do you really not see a distinction between Hinkie and Presti's version of building through the draft and like, Utah and Boston's version, where you at least pretend to still be playing basketball?

You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

And at the end of the day, where'd it get us? A role player level (on average) draft pick.

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#69 » by bondom34 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:19 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Luck is why you collect picks. Because if the strategy is "we only really need 1 shot" you end up missing more than you hit.

And I don't really see a ton of credible criticism of it at this point. They've been in the lottery *checks notes* 1 year. Yes, it was an ugly 25ish games, but if you're caving into pressure after 25 games they shouldn't have started a rebuild in the first place and just kept running back a first round exit.


Are you all serious? Do you really not see a distinction between Hinkie and Presti's version of building through the draft and like, Utah and Boston's version, where you at least pretend to still be playing basketball?

You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

And at the end of the day, where'd it get us? A role player level (on average) draft pick.

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.

Are you at all serious? Because Utah and Boston haven't made title runs either. And both were incredibly lucky. Nobody saw Gobert as this, and Mitchell as well. Boston tried to tank and ended up in the middle, but fell into Brooklyn tanking. Both had incredible luck.

And Utah topped out as a 2nd round out so far. Boston has 2 stars and made 1 conference finals.

You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.


If you can't handle a team being bad for 25 games my goodness what are the Cavs, Kings, Wolves, etc. They're trying to be good and can't.

Guess what, more times than not draft picks don't work out. They just don't. So you have 2 options:

1. Get a bunch, hope some work out.

2. Be a big market and sign free agents.

If you don't want either then to be blunt there shouldn't be an organization in OKC and they should move to Los Angeles. Oh wait they tanked for 3 seasons too, but hey they fell backwards into Lebron James signing there. That should be the rebuild strategy "just get a generational free agent". Rebuild done.

Edit: Aside, but trying out guys like Brown is what rebuilding teams should be doing. Its how you find Covington, or TJ McConnell, or Richaun Holmes. And if SGA really isn't hurt then I'm not sure why he didn't play for team Canada.

They're going to trade some of these picks too, because they can't avoid it. But worrying because they were bad for 1/3 of a season after a decade of the playoffs is just really getting too far into it. If that's it just make the league all major markets and close it up.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#70 » by Dadouv47 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:22 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Luck is why you collect picks. Because if the strategy is "we only really need 1 shot" you end up missing more than you hit.

And I don't really see a ton of credible criticism of it at this point. They've been in the lottery *checks notes* 1 year. Yes, it was an ugly 25ish games, but if you're caving into pressure after 25 games they shouldn't have started a rebuild in the first place and just kept running back a first round exit.


Are you all serious? Do you really not see a distinction between Hinkie and Presti's version of building through the draft and like, Utah and Boston's version, where you at least pretend to still be playing basketball?

You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

And at the end of the day, where'd it get us? A role player level (on average) draft pick.

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.


Well as a smart market team, we need to draft a future star/superstar. No need to get all those top 3 picks like the Sixers did (and lottery odds are different now so...)

Another strong player and SGA + role players from the draft and good players we can have with future picks is the goal I think.

I complain about some moves but I don't understand what Presti is doing wrong in his overall approach. We only had ONE season of rebuild and we just drafted our first top 10 pick in a decade.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#71 » by Old Man Game » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:38 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:
bondom34 wrote:Luck is why you collect picks. Because if the strategy is "we only really need 1 shot" you end up missing more than you hit.

And I don't really see a ton of credible criticism of it at this point. They've been in the lottery *checks notes* 1 year. Yes, it was an ugly 25ish games, but if you're caving into pressure after 25 games they shouldn't have started a rebuild in the first place and just kept running back a first round exit.


Are you all serious? Do you really not see a distinction between Hinkie and Presti's version of building through the draft and like, Utah and Boston's version, where you at least pretend to still be playing basketball?

You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

And at the end of the day, where'd it get us? A role player level (on average) draft pick.

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.

Are you at all serious? Because Utah and Boston haven't made title runs either. And both were incredibly lucky. Nobody saw Gobert as this, and Mitchell as well. Boston tried to tank and ended up in the middle, but fell into Brooklyn tanking. Both had incredible luck.

And Utah topped out as a 2nd round out so far. Boston has 2 stars and made 1 conference finals.


But not exclusively luck, that's the key difference. Acquiring Conley for instance wasn't because they were running jobbers like Brown, Jr. out there or engaging in stunts like letting someone like Poku play PG. It's because they managed their roster effectively and had the chance to bring him in via a trade. As for Mitchell, recall they traded a piece they had for him (Trey Lyles) and it is their talent evaluation that deserves credit. Not just tanking to get into the top 3 because we don't know any other way to find a star.

Also for the record, didn't Utah just finish with the best record in the league? Say what you will about the playoffs but that's a pretty successful season by most measures.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#72 » by bondom34 » Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:50 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
But not exclusively luck, that's the key difference.


Who said it would be in any instance. Nobody is saying to tank forever and just hope you're lucky but buying 1 lottery ticket vs buying 5 is just playing the odds better.

Old Man Game wrote:Acquiring Conley for instance wasn't because they were running jobbers like Brown, Jr. out there or engaging in stunts like letting someone like Poku play PG.


To be blunt this just sounds like people aren't ready for a rebuild. Because young players aren't good and need time to develop in a role.

Old Man Game wrote:It's because they managed their roster effectively and had the chance to bring him in via a trade.


OKC could absolutely bring in players now via trade. If people want they could trade those picks for vets and end up in the 2nd round even. But again if your ultimate goal is a middling playoff seed I'm unsure why you started the rebuild and didn't keep CP3/Gallo/Schroder after 2020 or even keep Westbrook or George.

Old Man Game wrote:As for Mitchell, recall they traded a piece they had for him (Trey Lyles) and it is their talent evaluation that deserves credit. Not just tanking to get into the top 3 because we don't know any other way to find a star.

So you're saying you need to be able to evaluate talent too. Well yeah. But "hey lets draft a star at pick 13 and 27" isn't a viable strategy.

Old Man Game wrote:Also for the record, didn't Utah just finish with the best record in the league? Say what you will about the playoffs but that's a pretty successful season by most measures.


They also missed 4 years in the last decade in the playoffs. Including a 25-57 season and a top pick in Hayward. He left and they got Mitchell which was a great (though still fortunate) pick. Building through the middle of the draft isn't really a viable strategy.

Like sorry but that's how rebuilds go and I'm floored that a season out of the playoffs people are already out on it. Try being the Cavs/Wolves/Kings. Look at what the Pelicans did when they got 1 top pick and tried to push in. That's exactly how you end up there because you worry about outside pressure.

Here's expected value of picks:

Image

And if they just were a little worse to start last season and better at the end does it ultimately matter? Should incompetence be rewarded? Why aren't people upset Toronto sat Lowry after the deadline? Guys...its a rebuild maybe it won't turn around in a season.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#73 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:49 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

Okc isn’t the first team to have bad players. Atlanta and Memphis both made a blatant tank a couple of years ago by signing multiple guys to ten day contracts,

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.


I’ve had this post typed up until this point for 20 minutes and I’m just not sure what to say about this, I had hoped we would get lucky and possibly accelerate the rebuild too but we didn’t. However to conclude that Presti has no idea how to proceed at this point while insinuating some of the other things you’ve said about his player profiling, hardly seems objective. I mean, he literally wrote a letter to the fan base urging patience and explaining that it wouldn’t be quick.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#74 » by Old Man Game » Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:57 pm

ThunderBolt wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:
You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

Okc isn’t the first team to have bad players. Atlanta and Memphis both made a blatant tank a couple of years ago by signing multiple,e guys to ten day contracts,

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.


I’ve had this post typed up until this point for 20 minutes and I’m just not sure what to say about this, I had hoped we would get lucky and possibly accelerate the rebuild too but we didn’t. However to conclude that Presti has no idea how to proceed at this point while insinuating some of the other things you’ve said about his player profiling, hardly seems objective. I mean, he literally wrote a letter to the fan base urging patience and explaining that it wouldn’t be quick.


This may sound like I'm being obtuse, but I'm not actually proposing we get rid of Presti. I believe he can figure this thing out. I just hope he utilizes some other tools in the bag versus just tank the team into being a league embarrassment for an extended period, which is what I thought you all were indicating you were okay with (though I may have misread you).
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#75 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:55 pm

Old Man Game wrote:
ThunderBolt wrote:
Old Man Game wrote:
You cannot have watched those last 25 games when they were putting people like Charlie Brown Jr. out there - who should never have set foot on an NBA floor and you all know it - and tell me with with a straight face that wasn't gross.

Okc isn’t the first team to have bad players. Atlanta and Memphis both made a blatant tank a couple of years ago by signing multiple,e guys to ten day contracts,

If Presti isn't a savvy enough G.M. to figure it out beyond just 'hope I get a top three pick and a generational superstar again,' Maybe we need a change in the front office.


I’ve had this post typed up until this point for 20 minutes and I’m just not sure what to say about this, I had hoped we would get lucky and possibly accelerate the rebuild too but we didn’t. However to conclude that Presti has no idea how to proceed at this point while insinuating some of the other things you’ve said about his player profiling, hardly seems objective. I mean, he literally wrote a letter to the fan base urging patience and explaining that it wouldn’t be quick.


This may sound like I'm being obtuse, but I'm not actually proposing we get rid of Presti. I believe he can figure this thing out. I just hope he utilizes some other tools in the bag versus just tank the team into being a league embarrassment for an extended period, which is what I thought you all were indicating you were okay with (though I may have misread you).


I’m disappointed by the lotto. I’m disappointed that we didn’t use 16 & 18 to move up. I don’t want to say I’m disappointed in the Giddey pick but it’s hard for me to see him being a superstar even though I think he’ll be a good player. Like I’ve said before, it’s hasn’t been a bad summer but it’s been an underwhelming one.

Even though we all talk about the thunder everyday, it’s impossible to know anything definite. The player(s) that develop might be the ones we least expect. Or maybe Sam knows what he’s doing and Giddey, Man and JRE are all really good. Today Mann said that Sam was at almost every one of Florida’s games last season. Maybe he sees something others didn’t.

Moving forward I think it’s inevitable that there are going to be some assets that we don’t end up getting great value from. I’m ok with trading for better players but the fit and timing don’t seem right with Beal, Simmons or whoever else is available. I’ve come to the conclusion that right now the best thing to do is wait and see how things look at the end of next season.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular would be Season Discussion 

Post#76 » by Devilanche » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:11 pm

If we take last season as a tanking season (given the moves after all star break) would be interesting to know how many of us are open to the following

- tanking beyond this season
- if we tank for 3 or more season ( including this) , does this make you more open to trading SGA away ?

Note : for myself at best I’m ok to tank for one more season but tanking 2 more season including the upcoming one pretty much means not much of our current youth has developed well and we will then be stuck whereby our youth might not know / remember how to win. But at least then SGA would still have 4 more season under contract.

Tanking 3 or more season including the upcoming is out of the question .
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#77 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:21 pm

Patience isn’t sexy but I’m this isn’t us. Clay Bennet should get more credit.

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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular would be Season Discussion 

Post#78 » by ThunderBolt » Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:25 pm

Devilanche wrote:If we take last season as a tanking season (given the moves after all star break) would be interesting to know how many of us are open to the following

- tanking beyond this season
- if we tank for 3 or more season ( including this) , does this make you more open to trading SGA away ?


It seems like it would be inevitable.

Ideally, we tank next year and don’t get screwed in the draft. Year three we still miss the playoffs and if we don’t get lucky in the draft, make more of an aggressive effort to trade up and bring in some win now players while young guys are still on rookie contracts.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#79 » by spearsy23 » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:21 pm

I'd enjoy actually tanking a season before complaining about it. If your strategy is 'get Donovan Mitchell in the middle of the first you should be happy, because we'll have a lot of chances at that. We'll just also have shots at the top of the lotto too.
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Re: 2021-22 OKC Thunder Regular Season Discussion 

Post#80 » by Old Man Game » Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:21 pm

Asked on Daily Thunder but I wanted to bring it over here just for ya'all's perspectives.

How long would it take for "Trust in Presti" to dissipate? How many draft whiffs would it take (not saying this for sure is a whiff, just hypothetically)?

I know Durant, Harden, Russ, even Serge, Reggie and Adams built a lot of credit, but there has to be a limit right?

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