Jeff Green Thread

Post #1 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:10 pm

Many of you know my feelings on Jeff Green and regardless I think everyone can agree that the future of this team as constructed hinges on whether or not Jeff Green is a starting power forward in the NBA.

13 games into the year (I have watched every one), and I'm really seeing a problem with Jeff Green. Defensively, this team is looking for an identity. A lot of the players have bought into it. Thabo Sefolosha, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Kevin Ollie, Etan Thomas, Nick Collison, and even Russell Westbrook to an extent are working hard on the defensive end most of the time. Jeff Green has just been lazy on defense most of the year. Our perimeter defense has been largely excellent thanks to Sefolosha and others, Jeff Green's been a big problem in the middle.

Jeff Green is also one of the only young players on the team that isn't really showing much improvement. Most of his numbers are the same as last year, but he's shooting a worse percentage, getting fewer assists, and fouling more.

I was hoping to see more out of Jeff Green this year and his effort on defense especially has been disappointing. Especially when Kevin Durant is putting in such an effort lately.

Marty McFly · Post #2 » by **Marty McFly** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:02 pm

isn't he playing out of position though? it sounds a lot like he's got david lee syndrome.

i know you guys drafted harden, and westbrook is your point guard, but wouldn't it be better if durant played the 2, while green moved to the 3 spot?

i think you guys have some depth on the perimeter, so having better perimeter players than frontcourt players, your coach goes with the talent.granted i haven't watch the thunder much this year, or last year for that matter, so I'm hardly qualified to talk about them,, but i do find it interesting.

Post #3 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 11:10 pm

Kevin Durant struggles at SG, especially on the defensive end. Jeff Green is a natural SF and is playin gout of position; there are some who believe that he will make a passable starting PF. I guess it remains to be seen.

Marty McFly · Post #4 » by **Marty McFly** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:19 am

really? i figured a guy with the length, height he has and the speed he'd be a nightmare to deal with considering that sf is usually the most athletic position in the league.and as far as green, then yeah he's got the david lee syndrome then.lee's a natural 4 playing the 5.

Post #5 » by **slick_watts** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:43 am

Kevin Durant is a pretty long fellow, I don't think most people realize that he's roughly the same length as LaMarcus Aldridge or Tyson Chandler. He doesn't have the weight of those guys yet, but while KD has the athleticism of a SF with NBA center length, it's a bit of a stretch to expect him to consistently guard the league's quicker guards. Many people think Kevin Durant will end up at power forward should he fill out a bit, he definitely has the height and length for that. Shooting guard was a horrible experiment.

As for Green, he doesn't have the length of your prototypical PF (David Lee is 3 inches longer than Green, for example) and he's more of a perimeter oriented player that likes to face up. He has an effective post up game that's obviously not as effective against his power forward counter parts so I'm positive he'd be a lot more effective going up against other SF's on a nightly basis.

Post #6 » by **slick_watts** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:52 am

Just one example re: Green's length. If James Harden and Jeff Green were to stand back to back and stick their arms up straight in the air, James Harden's arms would reach half an inch higher.

dream_catcher_9 · Post #7 » by **dream_catcher_9** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:56 am

The thing I am disappointed about is his inconsistency. He looked magnificent vs the Lakers, and Spurs then disappears for a couple games. It's like he only gets up for the big games.

Julio · Post #8 » by **Julio** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:04 pm

For me , I watched every game except for the last one against the Wizards, and I definitively am on your side on the defensive end. In that side of the court, Green is still playing like a very young player, going for the block, going up on pumpfakes, not looking focused too much, and everything.

I see more of a team problem on offense. Sure,Green has issues on that end: he shoots way too much 3s, is not agressive enough, doesn't go in the paint enough (while he could, because Kirstic is always shooting jumpers and not much in the paint). But we don't have a good offensive gameplan IMO.
I love Durant, but he still takes a lot of heat check shoots, and I don't like how Westbrook is playing.
We don't pass the ball enough, and we (especially RW) don't look to Green in the post enough.

Right now, our offensive plays are.
KD, whatever he does.
Kirstic shooting.
RW trying to force ( quite often, a missed shoot or a TO)
Thabo from 3.

I think the team will really benefit more as Harden gets more and more confident, as he's already, IMO, our best playmaker.

All in all, not a good year for Green , yes, but I'm blaming it ( for the Offensive part) as much on the team as him. His effort on D is not good enough, that's for sure. That's where a good capitain and leader on D (guys like KG, Battier etc..guys who make you play D) would be useful.

V for Vendetta · Post #9 » by **V for Vendetta** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:37 pm

I think we should trade him for a real pf. We don't have any legit big man. I don't know who can we get for him. Kevin Love? Al Jefferson? Paul Millsap? A teem that needs a solid wingman with a good young pf will be ideal trade partner for us.

Post #10 » by **slick_watts** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:19 am

Julio, you bring some good points about the offense. Don't you think some of the issues we face as an offense are exacerbated by the fact that we have no presence on the block? Everyone on our starting lineup is more or less a perimeter oriented offensive player. We don't have the kind of point guard or offense that gets our slashers routine looks at the basket, so we're relying on a lot of outside shooting. Jeff Green is a capable post player; for some reason he's really fallen in love with that jumper even though he could probably take most PF's off the dribble and get a much higher percentage shot at the rim. We saw him do a lot of that in the first half against Washington.

I've long advocated the possibility of trading Jeff Green for Kevin Love. I think both of those guys would do much better on the other's team. Kevin Love is probably valued a bit higher though.

The gameplanning on offense definitely has to improve as well.

Defensively and on the boards is where Jeff Green really hurts us, especially when we're starting Nenad Krstic alongside him. He just doesn't have the size to consistently perform in those areas.

Clangus · Post #11 » by **Clangus** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:16 am

Slick as you know I have long been an advocate of Green, but thus far I have been proven wrong and you have been proven right.

Green, while he shows glimpses of being pretty good, he is to inconsistent and lazy on D. He has the tools to be a pretty decent defender too (not a shot blocker, but D is about more that steals and blocks) so its not that he's overmatched. He's the strongest guy on our team (according to training staff) he's got fast hands and feet. He really has no excuse.

At this point I would gladly trade him for a decent rebounding consistent PF.

He may yet pick it up again though.

dream_catcher_9 · Post #12 » by **dream_catcher_9** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:30 am

The thing about Green is when he plays with the effort and hustle you would like he plays out of his mind. See Laker game earlier this year. I would hate to trade him because him Harden/Durant/Westbrook are like BFF, and he is a great person something Presti loves in his players. If he never improves he could be a real good bench player, but I think he will improve.....

Julio · Post #13 » by **Julio** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:22 pm

slick_watts wrote:Julio, you bring some good points about the offense. Don't you think some of the issues we face as an offense are exacerbated by the fact that we have no presence on the block? Everyone on our starting lineup is more or less a perimeter oriented offensive player. We don't have the kind of point guard or offense that gets our slashers routine looks at the basket, so we're relying on a lot of outside shooting. Jeff Green is a capable post player; for some reason he's really fallen in love with that jumper even though he could probably take most PF's off the dribble and get a much higher percentage shot at the rim. We saw him do a lot of that in the first half against Washington.

I've long advocated the possibility of trading Jeff Green for Kevin Love. I think both of those guys would do much better on the other's team. Kevin Love is probably valued a bit higher though.

The gameplanning on offense definitely has to improve as well.

Defensively and on the boards is where Jeff Green really hurts us, especially when we're starting Nenad Krstic alongside him. He just doesn't have the size to consistently perform in those areas.

IMO it's very true that he settles too much.
But frankly i'm tired of seeing KD and Westbrook take hard shoot when jeff Green is on the block.
At least try to give him the ball.
One of our other problems is that right now, as long as they don't have the ball, Kevin and RW never move on offense.Thabo is a spot up shooter, and Green is forgotten, so no ball movement, AND no off the ball movement.
I have been a little disapointed with Harden in that aspect, I tought for his understanding of the game, he could be a nice off the ball player.
Also, we run pick and pop with Kirstic, do we ever run it with KD?I mean, with Durant as the screener? He's a far better shooter than Kirstic. We also almost never run a pick & roll, and that could put Green in the game a lot more ( if he was the screener and roller).
I like what Brooks did with our D, because guys are a lot more motivated now, even tough they are not skilled so much at first on D; but I really dislike our offensive game right now.

taiyed · Post #14 » by **taiyed** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:21 pm

Out of curiosity, would your fans be interested in a trade based on the framework (contracts don't exactly) of Al Jefferson + Brewer for Green + Harden?

Post #15 » by **slick_watts** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:53 pm

I'm not sure I'd do that deal for a healthy Al Jefferson; nevermind the fact that he hasn't looked the same at all this season. A healthy Jefferson is definitely a force offensively, but doesn't do that much to help on the defensive end of things.

Post #16 » by **slick_watts** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:57 pm

I was checking some 82games stats just now and noticed that Jeff Green is -27.3 Net Points Per 100 Possessions, by far the worst on the team. I think +/- data is kind of sketchy but that's tough to ignore.

Dr Positivity · Post #17 » by **Dr Positivity** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:36 pm

Posted this in the trade forum, but would you guys do Jeff Green for Andrea Bargnani? Sounds like they have the same issues right now... out of position and not really interested or capable of changing their game enough to fit that position.

Not to mention you guys desperately could use a big who shoots 3s with Westbrook and Thabo in the backcourt to spark up your offense. Bargnani would fit right in at PF

Post #18 » by **slick_watts** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:42 pm

Talent wise it's intriguing since Bargnani is such a consistent shooter, but his contract is awful for what he is, so no I don't think that's a realistic trade. Isn't Toronto in love with Bargnani anyway?

sisibilio · Post #19 » by **sisibilio** » Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:55 pm

Everyone realizes that he won't be succesful playing PF fulltime so that will make him come from the bench in the long run but don't get hurry, this year is still about growing, no need to start trading just to be slightly better now, only if it's a no brainer (say you could add a player like Aldridge just giving Green or so). The goal is being contenders in 2-3 years not now.

Post #20 » by **slick_watts** » Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:44 pm

Another 13 games have gone by, and Jeff has actually had a nice run on offense recently. He's shooting 48% from the field in December and looks a lot more aggressive getting the ball in low post position or closer to the basket. He's still not rebounding the ball well and his defense has been spotty (horrible in the Houston game), but the offense is looking a lot better.