Nuntius wrote:G R E Y wrote:There's a repeated pattern of overlooking actual results - both boxers tested with XY chromosomes - in favour of working to discredit the boxing association or the head of it, or the source of the investigation.
The issue with that statement is that those actual results you're talking about (that the two boxers tested with XY chromosomes) cannot really be verified.
The IBA's statement DOES NOT say that the two boxers in question tested with XY chromosomes. It doesn't even say that they failed a gender test.
The IBA statement says the following:"A boxer from Algeria Imane Khelif was excluded from the IBA World Boxing Championships due to the failure to meet the IBA eligibility criteria," the governing body said in a statement.
"The IBA upholds its rules and regulations as well as its athletes' personal and medical privacy, the eligibility criteria breach therefore cannot be shared by the IBA."
https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/two-disqualified-failing-meet-eligibility-criteria-world-champs-2023-03-26/
That's it. That's all that the official statement is saying.
The idea that the two were disqualified because they tested with XY chromosomes comes from Umar Kremlev's interview on Russia Today. That's it. That's the source. Something that Kremlev said in an interview without actually providing any corroborating evidence. The test results themselves aren't public, the official statement of the IBA makes no mention of XY chromosomes and the Algerian Olympic Committee disputes the notion that its athlete tested with XY chromosomes.
If you want to take Kremlev at his word and believe him without the need of further corroboration, that's your right. But let's not pretend that not taking Kremlev at his word and requiring further corroboration is denying any kind of fact.
G R E Y wrote:Also, trying to wholesale discredit people who work in various helpful fields - a civil rights lawyer and Olympian, a doctor and Olympian, and an evolutionary biologist, and nothing about what they stated or what was posted was addressed - is a telling omission.
The whole 'transphobe' label no longer has the shield of invincibility. Test results aren't going to be dismissed just because of it.
You know who else is fine referring to Reduxx?Spoiler:
So, a world renowned evolutionary biologist, a respected developmental biologist, a UN Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women and Girls (who retweeted the third tweet above) whose reputations for rigorous research are beyond reproach.
I'm not trying to wholesale discredit anyone. All I'm saying is that when someone is biased against a specific group of people then we cannot really take their opinion on said group of people as gospel. That's it.
When someone is biased against a group of people then we must acknowledge that bias when evaluating what they say about that group of people. Not doing that allows to fall victim to that very same bias.G R E Y wrote:But if you want another source, these two boxers who tested with XY chromosomes fighting in female category are getting a more prominent examination.The situation has arisen because the world championships last year was run under the auspices of the International Boxing Association, whose president, Umar Kremlev, told the Russian news agency, Tass, that DNA tests had “proved they had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events”.
The IBA told the Guardian it had made the decision “following a comprehensive review and was intended to uphold the fairness and integrity of the competition”.However the IOC’s own MyInfo website acknowledges that both boxers failed gender eligibility tests last year.
In its internal system, which is provided to journalists in Paris, the IOC states that Khelif was “disqualified just hours before her gold medal showdown against Yang Liu at the 2023 world championships in New Delhi, India, after her elevated levels of testosterone failed to meet the eligibility criteria”. The IOC also acknowledges that Lin was “stripped of her bronze medal after failing to meet eligibility requirements based on the results of a biochemical test.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/29/boxers-who-failed-gender-tests-at-world-championships-cleared-to-compete-at-olympics
Even IOC states it.
What the IOC states for Khelif is that she was disqualified due to elevated testosterone levels. Not XY chromosomes. There are a lot of different ways for someone to have elevated testosterone levels that have nothing to do with actually having XY chromosomes.
As for Lin Yu-ting, it just mentions a biochemical test which can mean a whole host of tests. Same goes for the gender eligibility tests as they can also mean multiple things.
At no point does the IOC corroborate that the two boxers in question has XY chromosomes.G R E Y wrote:As to Semenya, once again you ignored the DSD. Curiously, so does Semenya (since you're ok with BBC, and presumably Semenya's own words):She says she has "nothing to hide", adding: "I am a woman and have a vagina just like any other woman.
Hmm vagina. Ok. So now what?"At the end of the day, I know I am different. I don't care about the medical terms or what they tell me. Being born without a uterus or with internal testicles. Those don't make me less of a woman," added Semenya.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/67336536
Huh. But it does biologically make Semenya a male with DSD, so not less a woman but not a woman, in fact.
In your rush to dismiss any sources under the 'transphobe' umbrella, this was ignored:The precise medical name for Caster Semenya’s difference in sexual development, or DSD, is 5-alpha reductase deficiency. It is a condition that influences only male sexual characteristics before birth and during puberty. Those with it have one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, plus testes that may be internal due to the shortage of a hormone, dihydrotestosterone, which can disrupt the formation of external sex organs. In other words, Semenya is 46XY: genetically male.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2023/07/11/world-athletics-right-caster-semenya/
As for the birth certificate, it is not uncommon for people with Semenya's DSD to present with external female genitalia and for the condition to not present until puberty ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency ). Semenya went through male puberty and all the biologial advantages that come with it, even for one with such a rare DSD.
I'm not ignoring the DSD at all. Semenya is intersex so the DSD is a given.
What I am disputing is that a person who was assigned female at birth, has lived her whole life as a woman and does not wish to be a man should be considered a man. That's it. My point cannot be any clearer than that.G R E Y wrote:Notice, too, that when I ask for the cheek swab to be reinstated to test for sex category, this is ignored in favour of the all mighty birth certificate. I'm not saying the family or Semenya are deceptive about it, doctors recorded what they saw, but you conflating the purpose of the certificate and swab and declaring one trumps the other is negligent at best.
Oh, really? You're not accusing Semenya or any of the athletes I mentioned of being deceptive about it? That's weird. I could swear that Dawkins called the two boxers in question "men masquerading as women" in one of the numerous tweets you posted.
So, yeah, I do not actually buy this "I'm not saying they are deceptive" line one bit. Sorry.G R E Y wrote:Science-based research is there for all to read. Ad hominems vs. weight of evidence.
Ad hominems? Show me one example of an ad hominem, please.
Calling an individual that has publicly made a slew of transphobic statements (like the founder and editor of Reduxx) a transphobe is NOT an ad hominem. It's a statement of fact.
Would you consider calling David Duke a racist to be an ad hominem? No, you wouldn't. It is a fact that David Duke is a racist. Just like it is a fact that Anna Slatz is a transphobe.
The irony here is that this particular discussion isn't actually about any trans athlete at all. It is a discussion about intersex athletes. And yet the virulent transphobia of the sources you're using is making them pretend that intersex people do not even freaking exist. It's horrible, really, just wholesale denying their existence and humanity. Alas, that's where hate leads.
Also, you're talking about "weight of evidence". What kind of evidence have you provided exactly? The only thing that the article you posted has provided as evidence is Kremlev's interview and that cannot even be corroborated. You do know that the scientific method actually requires verification, don't you? All you've posted here is opinions. It's not evidence and it's not research.
In any case, it looks like people are annoyed by the discussion we're having in here. I would gladly continue this discussion in the Current Affairs board or even over PMs. Whichever one you prefer. This will be my last post about this particular topic in this thread.
Sources (ignored): evolutionary and developmental biologists, Guardian, Telegraph and their respective reporters, all of whom to clearly state both boxers have XY chromosomes. And Semenya's DSD.
Ignored: Semenya's specific DSD is for biological males only.
Ignored: going through male puberty gives unfair advantage in female sports competition which is also dangerous. For the purposes of fair sports, the central point of biological advantage keeps being skirted. It's nice to be nice but not when it breaks basic boundaries. Expecting women to comply is coersion. Unfair. Be kind and stay silent about getting pummelled or left in the dust. No. And while it may not be nice to say, how a person IDs or how one is socialized is secondary for the purposes of sports fairness and safety to the results of one. simple. cheek. swab. and then competing in the right sex category. This has been the repeated central point.
IOC must do the right thing and return to this easy, non-invasive, clear, quick test. It's too late for the women competing in Paris, and I can only hope the worst of it is a potential lost medal and not added injury.
Cheering hard for Angela Carini on Thursday.
