2024 Paris Olympics General (non-Basketball/Track & Field) Discussion Thread

[Stannis]

Surprised that they were thinking about pulling wrestling out of the Olympics.

Amit Elor (USA, 20 years old) just won gold and dominated all her competition.

[G R E Y]

Best of the best ass kickers proves it again!

Read on Twitter

[bisme37]

I'm home from work and doing my thing where I try to catch up with the 500 events on my DVR since last night (and then wonder why half of it is not the thing I actually tried to record lol).

My USA indoor volleyball ladies made quick work of Poland today. And China, who was the only team to beat USA in pool play, was eliminated by Turkey. So I'm pleased haha. USA might just surprise me and win another gold.

[Nuntius]

Read on Twitter

Women's category is really an Open category until IOC reinstates biology-based clarity testing. Perhaps with new upcoming leadership can do better than gaslighting XX women who have to have compassion for being hit 2.5 times harder and stay silent about it.

Is there any proof that Khelif punches 2.5 times harder than other female boxers? There isn't any proof of that, is there?

[Bergmaniac]

I'm home from work and doing my thing where I try to catch up with the 500 events on my DVR since last night (and then wonder why half of it is not the thing I actually tried to record lol).

My USA indoor volleyball ladies made quick work of Poland today. And China, who was the only team to beat USA in pool play, was eliminated by Turkey. So I'm pleased haha. USA might just surprise me and win another gold.

China's women lost mostly because Turkey's opposite hitter Vargas had an incredible game, she got 38 points on her attacks and it felt like she finished every big point with a spike against a good block.

[bisme37]

I'm home from work and doing my thing where I try to catch up with the 500 events on my DVR since last night (and then wonder why half of it is not the thing I actually tried to record lol).

My USA indoor volleyball ladies made quick work of Poland today. And China, who was the only team to beat USA in pool play, was eliminated by Turkey. So I'm pleased haha. USA might just surprise me and win another gold.

China's women lost mostly because Turkey's opposite hitter Vargas had an incredible game, she got 38 points on her attacks and it felt like she finished every big point with a spike against a good block.

I always try to stay up on my international volleyball but it's really hard to watch in the US until the Olympics come around. I was not very familiar with Vargas until the last couple weeks but she's a killer.

I haven't watched it yet but looks like Egonu and Italy just beat the pants off of Boscovic and Serbia.

Looking forward to the semis. USA vs Brazil is aways fun and Italy vs Turkey should be great too.

[G R E Y]

Read on Twitter

Women's category is really an Open category until IOC reinstates biology-based clarity testing. Perhaps with new upcoming leadership can do better than gaslighting XX women who have to have compassion for being hit 2.5 times harder and stay silent about it.

Is there any proof that Khelif punches 2.5 times harder than other female boxers? There isn't any proof of that, is there?

Here's what is known: those born with XY DSDs ie/like Semenya's 5-alpha reductase deficiency, aka 46XY go through male puberty.

An average body that has gone through male puberty punches 150% harder than one that has gone through female puberty (the latter also have less bone density).

A previous I think Mexican opponent of Khelif said she'd never been punched harder. The first Italian opponent stopped the fight stopped the fight for fear of her physical safety.

It's a leap in logic of course to go from one statement to another.

In between, however, there has been a decided effort by IOC to skirt away from biology issue.

IBA is fraught with issues but the test results declaring Khelif and Yu-ting ineligible were legally binding. IBA eligiblity for fighting in the female category is testing XX. Both boxers could have appealed but didn't/dropped it.

We know of Semenya's XY DSD from the CAS appeal results publicly released. Appeal of both boxers would be publicly available, too.

It is of course the right or both boxers not to appeal. Both also sent letters in the last couple of days to IBA stating they did not give consent to reveal those previous test results.

The findings were sent to IOC in June of 2023.

IOC recently clarified that in a statement that when Mark said 'this is not a DSD issue' he ought to have stated 'this is not a transgender issue'.

Khelif refused to answer whether about any other tests beyond I think doping.

IOC said nobody wants to go back to bad old days of sex testing. Last poll of Olympic female athletes (Atlanta I think) had over 80% support for it. IOC said sex tests should be private, but doping, pregnancy, weight, etc., are fine to reveal lol ok.

The complete and utter circling around the one central issue in question, both in bot directly answering it, and then attempting to downplay the importance of sex testing in categorizing are nothing short of damning.

Tell you what: it is expected that different IOC leadership will be in place by next Olympics (not sure if winter or summer). Should that leadership implement sex testing, and should both boxers in question pass XX, I will wholeheartedly and unequivocally apologize. My word is good. I think both are in their 20s so another Olympics may be in their future.

But colour me skeptical when the lone single issue - which could have easily long since been clarified - is being avoided so much that it stands out so much. Signs point to the presence of XY DSD and its complete and utter takedown is right there for the taking. No such actions have been taken. Current IOC does not require it. To their lasting shame. Each of the opponents has made some reference to the unfairness of the fights. The focus has been equal sex footing. IOC negligence in protecting sex categories has brought unnecessary attention to everyone involved.

[The Sebastian Express]

Glad the thread has graduated from openly calling Imane a man to just casually throwing out unsubstantiated she 'punches this statistical amount more powerful than her competitors' to try to spread fear under the guise of concern.

Fun times.

[Pelon chingon]

Glad the thread has graduated from openly calling Imane a man to just casually throwing out unsubstantiated she 'punches this statistical amount more powerful than her competitors' to try to spread fear under the guise of concern.

Fun times.

This isn't a case where someone is being "misgendered" XY = man. If you feel strongly against it volunteer your daughter to get punched in the face by a dude and call it sport.

[The Sebastian Express]

Glad the thread has graduated from openly calling Imane a man to just casually throwing out unsubstantiated she 'punches this statistical amount more powerful than her competitors' to try to spread fear under the guise of concern.

Fun times.

This isn't a case where someone is being "misgendered" XY = man. If you feel strongly against it volunteer your daughter to get punched in the face by a dude and call it sport.

Imane is a woman. Your support of transphobic viewpoints and stances is noted, because Imane doesn't need to be trans for the rhetoric being spewed to come from a foundation of transphobia.

[Decipher]

14yo Australian became our youngest ever gold medalist in the Women’s Skateboard Park

Apart from the fact that she’s a prodigy who has landed tricks never done before in competition, she also seems like a lovely, well adjusted kid

Hasn’t stopped trolls from claiming that she’s too young to compete at the Olympics

Read on Twitter

[Pelon chingon]

Glad the thread has graduated from openly calling Imane a man to just casually throwing out unsubstantiated she 'punches this statistical amount more powerful than her competitors' to try to spread fear under the guise of concern.

Fun times.

This isn't a case where someone is being "misgendered" XY = man. If you feel strongly against it volunteer your daughter to get punched in the face by a dude and call it sport.

Imane is a woman. Your support of transphobic viewpoints and stances is noted, because Imane doesn't need to be trans for the rhetoric being spewed to come from a foundation of transphobia.

You've lost the plot buddy.

[Nuntius]

Here's what is known: those born with XY DSDs ie/like Semenya's 5-alpha reductase deficiency, aka 46XY go through male puberty.

An average body that has gone through male puberty punches 150% harder than one that has gone through female puberty (the latter also have less bone density).

We aren't talking about the average person here, though. We're talking about elite athletes.

For example, the average Frenchman is 5'10. Wemby, on the other hand, is 7'4. Does the average height of Frenchmen matter for him? No, it doesn't. He's an elite athlete and therefore an exception.

That is why I asked what I asked. If the claim is that athletes like Semenya and Khelif have an advantage due to their intersex condition (which, again, is only speculative when it comes to Khelif and Yu-ting and only proven for Semenya) then shouldn't we measure how their performances stack up against other female athletes of their sport? Shouldn't that be the basis of the argument? The actual performance deviation that these athletes have, not some vague average.

Is Khelif's performance abnormal among female boxers? Her boxing record per her BoxRec page is 39-9 with 5 KOs -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/899786

That's a 81.25% winning percentage.

To see how that stacks up, this is the BoxRec page for Amy Broadhurst, a boxer who has fought against Khelif in the past and beat her -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/899647

Broadhurst's record is 91-15 with 13 KOs. That's a 85.8% winning percentage. Her KO% is also 14.29% while Khelif's KO% is 12.82%.

So, Broadhurst has a clear advantage both in winning percentage and in KO percentage. And she also beat Khelif in the 2022 World Championship. Statistically, at least, Broadhurst is clearly better.

Let's look at another example. Let's look at Turkish boxer, Busenaz Surmeneli -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/881436

Surmeneli's record is 47-8 with 6 KOs. That's a 85.4% winning percentage. Her KO% is 12.77% which is right in line with Khelif's.

Surmeneli won the Olympic Gold in the last Olympics in Tokyo.

Let's look at the other finalist of this year's event, Yang Liu -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/891137

Her record is 25-7 with 0 KOs. That's a 78.1% winning percentage.

Finally, let's take a look at Angela Carini -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/885533

Her record is 84-23 with 4 KOs in her favor and 1 KO against her. That's a 78.5% winning percentage and a 4.76% KO percentage.

Khelif's record is pretty good but she's definitely not dominant. She doesn't seem like an outlier.

Wanna see an outlier? Here's Azalia Amineva -> https://boxrec.com/en/box-am/1083362

Her record is 21-0 with 6 KOs. She has won every single match she has played. Her KO percentage is a stunning 28.57%.

That's what real dominance looks like. She'd be a favorite for the Gold if she was allowed to compete but she's Russian so she's not competing in these particular Olympics.

A previous I think Mexican opponent of Khelif said she'd never been punched harder. The first Italian opponent stopped the fight stopped the fight for fear of her physical safety.

Everyone is allowed to have their opinion. I'm not going to doubt the experience that any athlete has stated they've had which is exactly why I've never talked about any of these athletes (despite some social media stuff they posted).

And since everyone is allowed their opinion, here's what the aforementioned Amy Broadhurst had to say:

Read on Twitter

It's a leap in logic of course to go from one statement to another.

In between, however, there has been a decided effort by IOC to skirt away from biology issue.

IBA is fraught with issues but the test results declaring Khelif and Yu-ting ineligible were legally binding. IBA eligiblity for fighting in the female category is testing XX. Both boxers could have appealed but didn't/dropped it.

We know of Semenya's XY DSD from the CAS appeal results publicly released. Appeal of both boxers would be publicly available, too.

It is of course the right or both boxers not to appeal. Both also sent letters in the last couple of days to IBA stating they did not give consent to reveal those previous test results.

The findings were sent to IOC in June of 2023.

IOC recently clarified that in a statement that when Mark said 'this is not a DSD issue' he ought to have stated 'this is not a transgender issue'.

Khelif refused to answer whether about any other tests beyond I think doping.

First of all, I'm glad that we finally agree that the IBA is fraught with issues.

Now, on to the bolded part. Where exactly do you get the information that IBA eligibility for fightning in the female category is testing XX? Is there a source for this claim?

Here are the IBA's Technical and Competition Rules -> https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/IBA-Technical-and-Competition-Rules_20.09.21_Updated_.pdf

A quick Google search on their eligibility criteria will lead you to the above PDF.

I searched the PDF for the terms "XY", "XX" and "chromosome" and the only results that I got was "xy" appearing twice in the word "oxygen". Nothing relevant to chromosomes whatsoever.

The term "gender" did appear four times. Two of those times were in Application forms towards the end of the document so not really relevant.

The third time it was about ensuring that the Competition Official who performs the Weight-in is the same gender as the Boxer:

11.8. The Weigh-In must be conducted by Competition Officials of the same gender as the Boxers

A logical rule but also not really relevant to our discussion.

The fourth time is finally something that is relevant to this discussion. And it is this passage:

10.4. In AOB Competitions, gender tests may be conducted.

That's it. That's the only information that seems relevant to the discussion we're having. A vague "gender tests may be conducted". At no point does it clarify what those gender tests actually are. They could be chromosome tests, they could be gonadal testing, they could be testosterone testing. We simply do not know. It is simply never clarified.

IOC said nobody wants to go back to bad old days of sex testing. Last poll of Olympic female athletes (Atlanta I think) had over 80% support for it. IOC said sex tests should be private, but doping, pregnancy, weight, etc., are fine to reveal lol ok.

The complete and utter circling around the one central issue in question, both in bot directly answering it, and then attempting to downplay the importance of sex testing in categorizing are nothing short of damning.

Do you want to go back to the days of sex testing?

Do you want to go back to the times of nude parades and nude inspections? Because that **** did happen back in the '60s. From a Scientific American article -> https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/sex-testing-in-the-olympics-and-other-elite-sports-is-based-on-flawed/

Eveleth: [Laughs] Right, exactly. And so it’s so funny just, like, how that line has shifted, but in 1936 the first official policy in that regard is passed by the International Amateur Athletic Federation [IAAF], which is now known as World Athletics, the governing body of track and field. And that policy allows them to pull aside any suspicious female, and they don’t really say what warrants suspicion—it’s sort of a very, like, “you’ll know it when you see it” kind of situation. And the policy allows for an examination of that athlete, so that would be a nude inspection.

Feltman: Wow.

Eveleth: There are some intervening years where you have instructions like, “We really want you to go to your doctor and get examined and bring a little, like, note—like a doctor’s note that says, like, ‘diagnosed female,’” or whatever [laughs], you know?

Feltman: Yikes, wow.

Eveleth: Yeah, and then in 1966 they decide that doing this on a case-by-case basis, or sort of this ad hoc kind of way, is not good; we need to do it to all women. And they institute what are now known as the “nude parades,” also sometimes known as the “peek and poke” tests, which were: every woman who competed in track and field had to go into a room and get naked in front of a panel—sometimes one person, sometimes more than one—to be confirmed that their body looked correct for a woman.

Or how about the chromosomes tests that they started using later on?

Eveleth: In 1968 they switch, and they change the policy, and they go to a chromosome test. And from 1968 to 1999, which is a very long period of time, every single woman who competed in the Olympics had to take a sex test, a chromosome-based sex test, and get a certificate of femininity that looks a little bit like your driver’s license and bring it with you—everywhere you go, whenever you compete. And that lasts until 1999.

And the thing that’s really interesting about this period of time is that immediately—like, as soon as the IOC [International Olympic Committee] and the IAAF start using these tests—you have doctors and scientists being like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on—this won’t do any of the things that you say it’s going to do. It will not necessarily catch all men who try to enter a women’s competition because some men can have XX chromosomes. All you’re going to do is catch women who have no idea there’s anything different about them, who have shown up to the Olympics, trained their whole lives to compete and all of a sudden are gonna be told, ‘Actually, surprise, you’re not a woman, and you need to leave.’”

You know, there was a 30-year campaign by these scientists to write to the IOC, to write to World Athletics and be like, “Guys, like, don’t do this. This doesn’t work. It’s not scientifically sound.” The guy whose test they were using wrote to the IOC and the IAAF, being like, “Please stop doing this,” and they were like, “No thanks,” [laughs] you know?

When asked about it they basically say, like, “Look, I understand that you scientists in your labs have this way of thinking about things, but this is sports, and we do things our own way here.”

And that was really, basically, the answer for 30 years, and it took a ton of work to try and convince these organizations to drop these tests.

It is important to note that these flawed tests had real harmful effects on a number of women. A famous example of that would be Ewa Kłobukowska. Kłobukowska had two X chromosomes but she also possibly had a Y chromosome and she was banned due to that. She was called a "male imposter" and got stripped of all of her medals and records. The irony? She had a son a few years later so, yeah. She probably wasn't even intersex and the test simply **** up.

Because, again, those tests weren't exactly scientific. And a lot of that testing is based on straight-up misogynistic attitudes. "A woman cannot be that strong, she must be a man in disguise". "Let's have her strip to make sure she has the right genitals". Yeah, I'm glad that this **** isn't going on anymore.

And let me say one more thing: I do not consider this a surprise that these questions are usually raised against women of color. There's a reason why the vast majority of the women that have faced controversy due to these reasons are African and Asian. Women who do not conform to the West's beauty standards have always been vilified as "ugly" and "manly". But that doesn't make them less of a woman, does it?

Tell you what: it is expected that different IOC leadership will be in place by next Olympics (not sure if winter or summer). Should that leadership implement sex testing, and should both boxers in question pass XX, I will wholeheartedly and unequivocally apologize. My word is good. I think both are in their 20s so another Olympics may be in their future.

But colour me skeptical when the lone single issue - which could have easily long since been clarified - is being avoided so much that it stands out so much. Signs point to the presence of XY DSD and its complete and utter takedown is right there for the taking. No such actions have been taken. Current IOC does not require it. To their lasting shame. Each of the opponents has made some reference to the unfairness of the fights. The focus has been equal sex footing. IOC negligence in protecting sex categories has brought unnecessary attention to everyone involved.

And if they can find a testing procedure that is non-invasive, based on actual scientific data and accurate, I'd be all for it. But does such a procedure exist?

In the absence of such a procedure, I understand why they do not want to go back to the days of sex testing.

One last note: Semenya has been mentioned quite a lot during our discussion. So, I consider it important to note that just last year, Semenya won her discrimination case in the European Court of Human Rights -> https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/18/caster-semenya-won-her-case-not-right-compete

This is what the ECHR had to say about the case of the IAAF not allowing Semenya to compete:

In the case of Semenya v. Switzerland the Court held that there had been a violation of the prohibition of discrimination taken together with the right to respect for private life as well as a violation of the right to an effective remedy.

The case concerned an international-level athlete, specialising in middle-distance races, who complained about certain regulations of the International Association of Athletics Federations requiring her to take hormone treatment to decrease her natural testosterone level in order to be able to take part in international competitions in the female category. Having refused to undergo the treatment, she was no longer able to take part in international competitions.

The Court found that the applicant had not been afforded sufficient institutional and procedural safeguards in Switzerland to allow her to have her complaints examined effectively and that the domestic remedies available to the applicant could not be considered effective in the circumstances of the present case.

[The Sebastian Express]

This isn't a case where someone is being "misgendered" XY = man. If you feel strongly against it volunteer your daughter to get punched in the face by a dude and call it sport.

Imane is a woman. Your support of transphobic viewpoints and stances is noted, because Imane doesn't need to be trans for the rhetoric being spewed to come from a foundation of transphobia.

You've lost the plot buddy.

Well. I'm a woman who knows this isn't about protecting women, it's about protecting femininity and narrowing down definitions of womanhood. And I know it will not stop at women like Imane and unfortunately if it continues it'll be a sad lesson some other women in this thread advocating for discrimination against Imane, and calling her a man or agreeing with those who call her a man, will learn in time. Because they too will likely be targeted if they don't fit into an extremely narrow gap.

I know the plot and I know the narrative. It's a tale as old as time and as dangerous as some women's performative tears.

I'm grateful to Nuntius for being a voice of reason who articulates the problems with what's happening with far more elegance and patience than I have right now.

[Nuntius]

Glad the thread has graduated from openly calling Imane a man to just casually throwing out unsubstantiated she 'punches this statistical amount more powerful than her competitors' to try to spread fear under the guise of concern.

Fun times.

This isn't a case where someone is being "misgendered" XY = man. If you feel strongly against it volunteer your daughter to get punched in the face by a dude and call it sport.

1) There is no evidence that Khelif and Yu-ting actually have XY chromosomes. The official statement of the IBA does not actually say what kind of test they failed and why. All we know is that the president of the IBA, Umar Kremlev, said that this is why they were disqualified in an interview with Russia Today but, afaik, he hasn't provided any evidence for his claim.

2) If XY = man then explain this. How did Ewa Kłobukowska gave birth to a child when, according to the tests of her time, she had a Y chromosome?

The reality is that human biology is more complicated than the XX/XY binary that we have in our heads. Exceptions do exist.

[Doctor MJ]

6. I'm not the one who should be deciding what those clear guidelines are, but I'll say this:

If a transfemale or intersex athlete can beat all cisfemales on Earth at a sport, it's naive to think it isn't because of advantages associated with male sexual development.

prefacing my comment that we don't really know what is Khelif's medical situation and that we are speculating, as this is very sensitive information and the Russian IBA is not a reliable source.

the thing here is that where you put the line thinking it's a clear demarcation it most likely won't. There will be athletes just near the limit that will have an advantage over the others. This will be a moving target by default, at the moment the women that don't pass that limit should be allowed to compete without all this madness around them.

Madness that is incredibly offensive and disrespectful, as the tone of the general discussion completely ignores how delicate and personal this is and on the contrary people seem to just want to see the ladies involved suffer.
My 2 cents: don't call this gender testing, there have to be objective parameters that you must respect to compete. Don't load it undermining a person identity just to score against the "libtards".

So first, perfectly reasonable for you to respond to me, but I wrote just one post and emphasized I didn't know specifics of the situation for a reason.

Since you replied to me I'll say this:

1. I agree with you at this point - based on what I now know about the IBA, some of which from its head actively doing stuff this past week - that the IBA is not a reliable source, and think it best to proceed as if there is no testing indicating either XY chromosomes or past-official-threshold testosterone. This to me basically renders the entire specific debate without basis. If further evidence comes up in the future pertaining to this athlete or others, it would make sense for people to still object, but not now - to the extent that my information matches with everyone else.

2. I've thought a lot about this in the past week, and had a number of conversations within my household. I think allowing intersex people with external female genitalia, and thus have identified as female from day 1, might be the most reasonable approach. Not making a definite statement - as I said before, I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make the decision, and I'm not a scientist in the relevant domain - but given that this is simply how things simply had to be in the deeper past before the technology, and the world survived, it will survive if we continue it.

Now, one of the major things that I won't deny concerned me, and really still does, is the fact that this is now happening in a combat sport, and female combat sports didn't exist in the olden days. It's one thing when we're just talking about who wins a race, but quite another when we're talking about something violent that can cause life-changing bodily damage on a time delay.

At the same time though, there is no numerical test we can give intersex boxers that will ensure their opponents won't receive such damage, because that damage is inherently a risk of the sport and those who choose to pursue it. So this is about risk mitigation rather than risk elimination, and that makes it all the more complicated to decide where said threshold should be.

I had frankly assumed that an organization sounding as official as the IBA surely must be using a standard that was pre-established by scientific analysis, and given my limited understanding of the science, I was content to defer to that, but as stated above, I now believe that to have been an incorrect assumption.

[WarriorGM]

Are there people here in favor of banning basketball players who are over 7 feet because it is unnatural and gives an unfair advantage?

[Pelon chingon]

IDK why but I'm reminded of this video.

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygULQm94aW5nIGh1cnQ%3D

Are we going to have to bury someone to learn the hard way?

[Mavrelous]

1) There is no evidence that Khelif and Yu-ting actually have XY chromosomes. The official statement of the IBA does not actually say what kind of test they failed and why. All we know is that the president of the IBA, Umar Kremlev, said that this is why they were disqualified in an interview with Russia Today but, afaik, he hasn't provided any evidence for his claim.

That's just asinine...
The IBA is the body that tested her and its president gave the statement, he is liable to defamation if he is lying, that's evidence and a good one at that, it's twisted to suggest otherwise.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Khelif defeated Janjaem Suwannapheng again. This was the same tilt after which Khelif was tested and disqualified for failing the IBA XX test (about which a letter was most recently sent to IBA to not allow results be made public).

Fifth XX fighter prevented from a chance to advance fairly.

IOC has no shame or credibility.

You don't know anything about Khelif's genetic and you comment as if you did.