# IOC: No proof Chinese gymnasts underage

[XcalibuR]

Gymnasts’ parents “indignant” over age questions

By NANCY ARMOUR and JOHN LEICESTER, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
BEIJING (AP)—With the parents growing indignant and the Beijing Games winding down, the International Olympic Committee wants to “put to rest” persistent questions about the age of China’s gold medal women’s gymnastics team.

The IOC said Friday there is still no proof anyone cheated, though it asked the International Gymnastics Federation to investigate “what have been a number of questions and apparent discrepancies,” spokeswoman Giselle Davies said. However, all the information the Chinese gymnastics federation presented supports its insistence that its athletes were old enough to compete.

“We believe the matter will be put to rest and there’s no question … on the eligibility,” Davies said. “The information we have received seems satisfactory in terms of the correct documentation—including birth certificates.”

Limit quoted articles to 3 paragraphs and provide link please.

If you don't privde the link to the quoted item the next time, I'll lock the thread.

Even though I'm hoping for China's story to be true, I'm not happy that its only a 12 freaken hours of "investigation". I want to see new solid evidence from EITHER side of the controversy so we can finally put this story to rest, Punish if its true, declare a clear innocence if its not true. But this is a joke, and no one is truly happy because Americans will just keep on whining.

[jourdy]

I wonder what Chris Chase has to say.

[dougthonus]

Even though I'm hoping for China's story to be true, I'm not happy that its only a 12 freaken hours of "investigation". I want to see new solid evidence from EITHER side of the controversy so we can finally put this story to rest, Punish if its true, declare a clear innocence if its not true. But this is a joke, and no one is truly happy because Americans will just keep on whining.

There is no solid evidence to be had nor was there ever going to be.

You are accusing the person who creates the only legal documentation of cheating and then looking for real documentation. The documents you'll find will say she's born at the correct date, because if China cheated then they'd create all the fake documents necessary. If China didn't cheat then all the real documents will be there. Either way, the chain of legal evidence is going to look the same regardless of guilt or innocence since the person accused is the only one who has access to the evidence.

This is why I've always maintained the stand that nothing would be / could be done about it. An investigation can't exonerate China in the minds of the accusers because they are the ones providing the evidence. It's more or less asking the guilty party if they are guilty and then taking their word for it.

[5DOM]

what did you expect?

[dacher]

What would have you believed?

Is media speculation that "China Cheated" an unfalsifiable claim?

I contend IOC and FIG know more about gymnastics, record keeping standards, and who looks "too young" in foreign countries better than US Gymnastics coaches and media.

Is this like some playground bullying of the short class nerd for looking different and doing too well in school?

[5DOM]

What would have you believed?

Is media speculation that "China Cheated" an unfalsifiable claim?

I contend IOC and FIG know more about gymnastics, record keeping standards, and who looks "too young" in foreign countries better than US Gymnastics coaches and media.

Is this like some playground bullying of the short class nerd for looking different and doing too well in school?

if the chinese goverment is behind this (the only explanation for cheating if it did occur), there is nothing that could have been done anyway.

so it was impossible to identify them cheaters to begin with (unless the cheaters come out and admit it).

did you really expect the chinese government to admit that they cheated even if they really did?

this "investigation" is like asking a kid if he cheated on a test.

[canoner]

Once you question the legality of publicly accepted legal document, there is NOTHING that Chinese can do to prove He is of age to you. Look if I am suspecious that Johnson is underage I can also say that all documents have been modified by FBI to make her appear of age. It is very doable if US government is behind it. Then there is no way you prove I am wrong either. Oh, you'd mention the past record, let us be honest, US government is not clean either. We were all cheated into Iraq war. Comparing with that, changing an athlete's record is nothing.

Even though I'm hoping for China's story to be true, I'm not happy that its only a 12 freaken hours of "investigation". I want to see new solid evidence from EITHER side of the controversy so we can finally put this story to rest, Punish if its true, declare a clear innocence if its not true. But this is a joke, and no one is truly happy because Americans will just keep on whining.

There is no solid evidence to be had nor was there ever going to be.

You are accusing the person who creates the only legal documentation of cheating and then looking for real documentation. The documents you'll find will say she's born at the correct date, because if China cheated then they'd create all the fake documents necessary. If China didn't cheat then all the real documents will be there. Either way, the chain of legal evidence is going to look the same regardless of guilt or innocence since the person accused is the only one who has access to the evidence.

This is why I've always maintained the stand that nothing would be / could be done about it. An investigation can't exonerate China in the minds of the accusers because they are the ones providing the evidence. It's more or less asking the guilty party if they are guilty and then taking their word for it.

[dougthonus]

What would have you believed?

Is media speculation that "China Cheated" an unfalsifiable claim?

I contend IOC and FIG know more about gymnastics, record keeping standards, and who looks "too young" in foreign countries better than US Gymnastics coaches and media.

Is this like some playground bullying of the short class nerd for looking different and doing too well in school?

Given that a Chinese gymnast admitted to cheating in 2000 in an interview and was not stripped of her medal or caught at the time, I contend that you are mistaken.

[dougthonus]

Once you question the legality of publicly accepted legal document, there is NOTHING that Chinese can do to prove He is of age to you.

You are correct. There is nothing China can do to prove that they aren't cheating to me. I will believe they are cheating regardless of what evidence comes forward. This is due to their history of being willing to crate all the false paperwork necessary to cheat in the past.

Look if I am suspecious that Johnson is underage I can also say that all documents have been modified by FBI to make her appear of age. It is very doable if US government is behind it.

If her birth certificate had her as '16', and her passport had her at '16', but other records existed in her gymnastics competitions of her being 14 or her school records had her existing at 14 or some other type of thing, then I would also think they faked those documents regardless of what was on the birth certificate.

Then there is no way you prove I am wrong either. Oh, you'd mention the past record, let us be honest, US government is not clean either. We were all cheated into Iraq war. Comparing with that, changing an athlete's record is nothing.

This isn't a political forum, and the people involved in political decisions aren't involved here. If there is a strong case of circumstantial evidence against a US athlete you can darn well bet that most people will assume guilt, and I wouldn't blame them for it.

[canoner]

Once you question the legality of publicly accepted legal document, there is NOTHING that Chinese can do to prove He is of age to you.

You are correct. There is nothing China can do to prove that they aren't cheating to me. I will believe they are cheating regardless of what evidence comes forward. This is due to their history of being willing to crate all the false paperwork necessary to cheat in the past.

Look if I am suspecious that Johnson is underage I can also say that all documents have been modified by FBI to make her appear of age. It is very doable if US government is behind it.

If her birth certificate had her as '16', and her passport had her at '16', but other records existed in her gymnastics competitions of her being 14 or her school records had her existing at 14 or some other type of thing, then I would also think they faked those documents regardless of what was on the birth certificate.

Then there is no way you prove I am wrong either. Oh, you'd mention the past record, let us be honest, US government is not clean either. We were all cheated into Iraq war. Comparing with that, changing an athlete's record is nothing.

This isn't a political forum, and the people involved in political decisions aren't involved here. If there is a strong case of circumstantial evidence against a US athlete you can darn well bet that most people will assume guilt, and I wouldn't blame them for it.

I believe this issue has long become a political one. I am not the one who made it one. Those who started screaming chinese government is cheating made it a political issue.

So are you saying that if someone has a screen shot of a cached file from any website, without proving the authenticity of the files, showing Johnson with a birth date in 1993, you would start believing Johnson is underage and US government is behind the fabrication of all her legal documents?

[5DOM]

Once you question the legality of publicly accepted legal document, there is NOTHING that Chinese can do to prove He is of age to you.

You are correct. There is nothing China can do to prove that they aren't cheating to me. I will believe they are cheating regardless of what evidence comes forward. This is due to their history of being willing to crate all the false paperwork necessary to cheat in the past.

Look if I am suspecious that Johnson is underage I can also say that all documents have been modified by FBI to make her appear of age. It is very doable if US government is behind it.

If her birth certificate had her as '16', and her passport had her at '16', but other records existed in her gymnastics competitions of her being 14 or her school records had her existing at 14 or some other type of thing, then I would also think they faked those documents regardless of what was on the birth certificate.

Then there is no way you prove I am wrong either. Oh, you'd mention the past record, let us be honest, US government is not clean either. We were all cheated into Iraq war. Comparing with that, changing an athlete's record is nothing.

This isn't a political forum, and the people involved in political decisions aren't involved here. If there is a strong case of circumstantial evidence against a US athlete you can darn well bet that most people will assume guilt, and I wouldn't blame them for it.

I believe this issue has long become a political one. I am not the one who made it one. Those who started screaming chinese government is cheating made it a political issue.

So are you saying that if someone has a screen shot of a cached file from any website, without proving the authenticity of the files, showing Johnson with a birth date in 1993, you would start believing Johnson is underage and US government is behind the fabrication of all her legal documents?

it wasnt just a screenshot. if it was, none of us would have even looked at it, because it could have just been photoshopped.

some of the documents (excel files) in question were actually uploaded by General Administration of Sport of China. and they are obviously taken down now.

[canoner]

What would have you believed?

Is media speculation that "China Cheated" an unfalsifiable claim?

I contend IOC and FIG know more about gymnastics, record keeping standards, and who looks "too young" in foreign countries better than US Gymnastics coaches and media.

Is this like some playground bullying of the short class nerd for looking different and doing too well in school?

Given that a Chinese gymnast admitted to cheating in 2000 in an interview and was not stripped of her medal or caught at the time, I contend that you are mistaken.

beating the hell out of one straw, aren't you?

[5DOM]

What would have you believed?

Is media speculation that "China Cheated" an unfalsifiable claim?

I contend IOC and FIG know more about gymnastics, record keeping standards, and who looks "too young" in foreign countries better than US Gymnastics coaches and media.

Is this like some playground bullying of the short class nerd for looking different and doing too well in school?

Given that a Chinese gymnast admitted to cheating in 2000 in an interview and was not stripped of her medal or caught at the time, I contend that you are mistaken.

beating the hell out of one straw, aren't you?

well it's not like you are bringing anything new to the table either, no one is.
everyone is basically repeating the same thing.

the fact is we will never know for sure if they cheated unless the gymnast or the officials comes out.

[dougthonus]

I believe this issue has long become a political one. I am not the one who made it one. Those who started screaming chinese government is cheating made it a political issue.

So are you saying that if someone has a screen shot of a cached file from any website, without proving the authenticity of the files, showing Johnson with a birth date in 1993, you would start believing Johnson is underage and US government is behind the fabrication of all her legal documents?

I have spelled out pretty clearly what sums up to make it an obvious case for China:
1) History of nation
2) Documentation made by coaches at tournaments
3) Documentation made by media
4) Physical look of person

If Shawn Johnson met all those same criteria I would assume she was guilty as well.

If the files put forth were done so by multiple different sources as in this case, then I would assume the authenticity of the reporters and not that they all copied each other's photoshop fake files. Of course, I've also experienced the way China operates first hand with Yi, because I saw his government file online saying he was 23 prior to it being taken down as well. Had I not gone through the same experience last year, I might have more skepticism of the reports of the documentation disappearing.

[Bullsmaniac]

From today's Chicago Tribune

According to documents, most of which are from Chinese provincial gymnastics registration lists that had been available on the Internet, three gymnasts from the gold-medal Chinese team had ages listed as recently as last fall that indicated they were 13 or 14 and unable reach the age limit for Olympic participation, which is to turn 16 during the Olympic year. The three are He Kexin, Yang Yilin and Jiang Jujuan.

Many of those documents have been removed from public viewing.

Wang Wei of the Chinese Olympic committee maintained proper procedures had been followed.

Besides the registration lists that indicated He was born in 1994, there was an Associated Press report picked up by the Chinese Xinhua news service in which a Chinese federation official mentioned a 13-year-old He as a strong candidate for the 2012 Olympics.

Yet when the Chinese gymnastics federation turned in passports to the international federation, He was listed as 16. On the documents, Yang and Jiang also had varying birthdays.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ol ... 9870.story

[Tomato]

With all this bureaucratic stuff aside, if I was one of the athletes and the investigation revealed that I was beaten by a 12 year old kid, I would applaud him/her and let him/her keep the medal.

[Aventador]

haters will continue to hate. an investigation just gave em a bit more ammunition along the lines of 'even IOC wavered at one point'.

[ljp24]

With all this bureaucratic stuff aside, if I was one of the athletes and the investigation revealed that I was beaten by a 12 year old kid, I would applaud him/her and let him/her keep the medal.

Gymnastics doesn't work that way buddy.

Generally, the younger you are(from age 11-14), the better you perform. A famous Olympian said something like that on CNN.

Lol@this 12 hour investigation. Ridiculous. If we were suspected of doing this, it would be a full blown effort.

[Tomato]

With all this bureaucratic stuff aside, if I was one of the athletes and the investigation revealed that I was beaten by a 12 year old kid, I would applaud him/her and let him/her keep the medal.

Gymnastics doesn't work that way buddy.

Generally, the younger you are(from age 11-14), the better you perform. A famous Olympian said something like that on CNN.

Lol@this 12 hour investigation. Ridiculous. If we were suspected of doing this, it would be a full blown effort.

Well, I don't know much about gymnastics but I still believe there are advantages with being older. More experience, better control of stress etc.. I think it's pretty impressive for a 11 year to to maintain her composure in front of 50k spectators with a whole Country behind her.

[Rocky5000]

The smallest of the six competitors is Deng Linlin, 4 feet 6 inches and 68 pounds. The team’s average size is 4-9 and 77 pounds. That is 3 ½ shorter and nearly 30 pounds lighter than the average for the United States team. Shawn Johnson, a favorite in the all-around, is the only American gymnast both shorter than 5 feet (4-9) and lighter than 100 pounds (90).

C'mon, it's so OBVIOUS, that they are underage.