FFL 2014-2015 - Season under way

[sabonis]

I dont think that's a fair deal as well. even if Drummond gets on par with last year, that's barely a fair trade. Right now, it definitely is not.

[Curtis Lemansky]

My 2 cents:

I dont love it for Jfrost but I dont think it is bad enough to be veto worthy. Two factors to consider:

1) Drummond is enough of a H2H anomaly that evaulating his value solely by his per game rank is futile (as it is in the case of Dwight). Dwight has been ranked out of top-200 year after year and yet his H2H value is somewhere between 10-20 every season evidenced by his draft position. Drummond seems to be a similar case. For comparison sake, Dwight's per game rank (249) so far is roughly equal to Drummond's(253).

2) Jfrost's team already have Dwight, Iggy, Nene and Josh Smith, so Drummond fits his team like a glove. His team already ranks at the bottom for ft% by a good a margin so that's a lost cause already, not to mention that it also makes DMC's strong (for a center) ft% pretty much useless.

Taking these into account, my vote is for no veto.

[sabonis]

what I dont get is this: DMC's average draft position is around 10-12 while Drummond's should be between 18-24 or something like that.

Drummond is sucking so bad right now (somebody please post his rank without FT% from bbm, I'm sure he's only around 150-160 or something...)
DMC is playing at top 10 level.

so there is no way this is an equal trade.

as of today Drummond does not only have one weakness (as in FT%) but A LOT of weak points. He does not steal the ball, his FG% is terrible and all his numbers are down from last year. if we were talking about last year's Drummond, I would have been ok with the trade. Though this year, jfrost is taking an unnecessary risk, even if Drummond turns it around, he will get a fair deal. Otherwise that is a terrible deal.

[hamncheese]

I'm on the fence on this one. I agree it's not fair. I think frost's team gets worse, and isn't a win/win or good for his build type trade. He gains in some of his categories of strength, but loses more so in elsewhere I think.

But, it's about what makes a trade veto-worthy. If veto's are in place to make sure all trades are fair, then that would have to be the continuing guidelines in allowing trades in this league. I don't think we've voiced this our policy here though.

As it is, we've only heard from one side of the trade, so I would like to hear from jfrost on what his thoughts are on his end.

[fraanciiscoo]

I'm on the fence on this one. I agree it's not fair. I think frost's team gets worse, and isn't a win/win or good for his build type trade. He gains in some of his categories of strength, but loses more so in elsewhere I think.

But, it's about what makes a trade veto-worthy. If veto's are in place to make sure all trades are fair, then that would have to be the continuing guidelines in allowing trades in this league. I don't think we've voiced this our policy here though.

As it is, we've only heard from one side of the trade, so I would like to hear from jfrost on what his thoughts are on his end.

wait ham are you saying that Basketball Monster are idiots ?!?!? cause in their trade checker even with current results i dont see a veto trade worth especially when he is losing tons of value due to FT% cause if you cut that cat and he will with Dh12 iggy etc etc etc i think he is the biggest winner

[sabonis]

fraan, post current rankings both with and without FT% separately please. let's see it.

[jfrost]

I bought low on Drummond... I think he will turn it around in the areas I need. I also gain lots of depth in this transaction. Cousins is a beast, but Drummond and Evans make my team stronger as I am tanking FT's already.

I clearly gain in Blk, Reb
I clearly lose in FT%, 3's
wash in Ast, FG's, Pts, TO's, Stl's

To me, Drummond + Evans > Cousins

The other players are throw in's and don't really matter to either of us.

[hamncheese]

Not saying BBM are idiots but we should consider whether or not to use their projections in analyzing the trade.

That trade analysis is based off of projections. You run that same analysis with season to date stats, then the value gain for you is +0.54, instead of +0.03, which is a substantial difference. The other problem with the analysis though, is that a significant amount of jfrosts gains in the analysis is in rebounds. Since he's already 3rd best in the league in rebounds, those gains don't mean as much compared to if he was the 5th or 6th best.

If you don't include free throw %, then instead of losing -0.54, jfrost loses -0.13 in valuation, so it does look better.

My contention in that the trade is not fair is that fran gains more in the trade and jfrost probably doesn't gain much if anything. It does come down to where one thinks Drummond's value is though.

By the way, at this point, I am not vetoing the trade. I feel we need to discuss further and agree on what makes a trade vetoable in this league, and agree that this same standard is used for all trade evaluations.

[sabonis]

I bought low on Drummond...

I clearly gain in Blk, Reb
I clearly lose in FT%, 3's
wash in Ast, FG's, Pts, TO's, Stl's

To me, Drummond + Evans > Cousins

The other players are throw in's and don't really matter to either of us.

for the bold part please help me understand how you define it as 'buying low' when you give up a top10 player...

oh and your gain in blocks is really marginal..

I still can not wrap my head around the trade. look even if Drummond had the same stats as last year, Fran could have given Tyreke anyway, but now you are just taking all the risk with no upside, since Drummond has almost no upside on DMC

I'm again asking someone to post current rankings/stats for this trade both with FT% and without FT% let's analyze it after those stats.

[sabonis]

By the way, at this point, I am not vetoing the trade. I feel we need to discuss further and agree on what makes a trade vetoable in this league, and agree that this same standard is used for all trade evaluations.

everything aside, I don't think you can agree on standards for vetoing trades. there is no such thing.

for me if a gm thinks he's 'buying low' on Drummond by giving up Cousins, that trade is not ok. I definitely can not comprehend the logic behind this.

for me if there is almost no upside for GM-X (jfrost) and substantial stat gain for GM-Y (fraan) then GM-Y has to be the one taking the risk. While in this trade, GM-X taking the risk of Drummond not getting it together.

[fraanciiscoo]

Hey Sabonis you can chill down... Dont tell me that you think each time you write here its a veto.

BTW like i said punt Ft i lose big time

[sabonis]

again with the projections? not current stats? come on let's see current stats

[fraanciiscoo]

again with the projections? not current stats? come on let's see current stats

by current stats your team is ****, courtney lee is top 15 player ... nuff said
right now david west is ranked 508 reddick is 202 want to trade for my kosta koufos is 215 and ennis 227 ????
so keep talking alone
and btw AGAIN i say this is NOT roto league its H2H

[Skai]

I vote to veto this trade for "basketball reasons."

JK. In my opinion, if both owners voluntarily agreed to the deal and each can articulate why they made the deal (which has happened here), I don't think we should veto the trade. Just because we don't agree with their reasoning doesn't mean the trade should be vetoed.

[floppymoose]

Here is the season-to-date totals:

[Hopper15]

I don't think it's a fair trade, but that's no reason to veto.

No veto from me.

[hamncheese]

Hey Sabonis you can chill down... Dont tell me that you think each time you write here its a veto.

BTW like i said punt Ft i lose big time

In punt FT, you can say that jfrost doesn't lose by trading for Drummond since he already is punting free throws, but since you're not punting FT once you trade Drummond, you can't talk about your loss under that build. You actually gain at least a few wins in just the ft% category with the trade.

And, to reiterate what I said before, that's where it's not "fair" because you gain more in the trade than jfrost in my opinion. Doesn't make it vetoable in this league, unless we decide that all trades must be fair by some sort of metric.

[floppymoose]

We don't need any agreement on what is vetoable. It's a democracy. If you think it is vetoable for whatever reason you like, vote veto. If you don't, vote no veto. We don't need a standard. We just need a vote.

An attempt to quantify fairness is doomed. It's in the eye of the beholder and every trade will be different. You can still veto a trade for fairness, even so. It's up to you.

[fraanciiscoo]

We don't need any agreement on what is vetoable. It's a democracy. If you think it is vetoable for whatever reason you like, vote veto. If you don't, vote no veto. We don't need a standard. We just need a vote.

An attempt to quantify fairness is doomed. It's in the eye of the beholder and every trade will be different. You can still veto a trade for fairness, even so. It's up to you.

u mad bro?


we are still waitting for sabonis to write more 3 or 4 posts bitching. Floppy don´t do it like sabonis.

[Curtis Lemansky]

Let's stop with the namecalling and insults.

As it stands we have three gm's who vote for veto and 4, namely Skai, me, Ham and Hopper (excluding Fran and Jfrost) who vote for no veto. The rest of the league choose to stay silent so the trade will pass as it is unless veto votes start raining in during the day.

FYI: I sent a league wide email via yahoo yesterday (roughly 20 hours ago) to those who didnt voice their opinion in this thread so everyone should be aware of this discussion. If they dont bother with posting anything here, it is safe to assume that they have no problems with the trade.