FFL - 2012-13 - Voting on Rule Change - draft order posted

[writersblock]

Had Irving not gotten hurt the last week, streaming would have secured me 8th place and caused Fran ( I think ) to miss the playoffs. It definitely does make a difference in the regular season.

but you didn't stream right? So it's all conjecture.

[floppymoose]

I totally streamed. 15 moves in one week, I think. Irving alone wouldn't have gotten me in, but Irving plus streaming would have.

It's obvious that using a lot of moves helps. The evidence is overwhelming. Just watching the managers who use a lot of moves go up the standings until they hit the move limit, then come tumbling back down. Also, look at how many more games played they get in over a season. If you can somehow draft a team with no scrubs in a league that goes 280 deep, then sure, maybe moves won't help you. But it's probably only one team in 20 that don't end up with a couple of scrubs, and if you have them you are better off streaming them.

[hamncheese]

Then we should give Cy a lot of credit for making the championship and leading as of today, since he only made two add/drops the entire season, keeping all but one player from his original draft.

[writersblock]

I totally streamed. 15 moves in one week, I think. Irving alone wouldn't have gotten me in, but Irving plus streaming would have.

It's obvious that using a lot of moves helps. The evidence is overwhelming. Just watching the managers who use a lot of moves go up the standings until they hit the move limit, then come tumbling back down. Also, look at how many more games played they get in over a season. If you can somehow draft a team with no scrubs in a league that goes 280 deep, then sure, maybe moves won't help you. But it's probably only one team in 20 that don't end up with a couple of scrubs, and if you have them you are better off streaming them.

If you're referring to me, then you're a bit off. I wasn't streaming, but picking and choosing guys based on potential early on in the season, without paying attention to whether they were playing the next day or not.

And my tumble from the top of the standings had nothing to do with running out of moves. It was actually calculated. I picked up some injured guys people had dropped and guys I thought would be traded by the deadline (Oh Denver why couldn't you have traded Mozgov?), anticipating that I wouldn't fall beyond 8th. Also, around the same time I lost Lou Williams as well, which aided my freefall. My inability to make moves by February didn't really hurt my team as much as carrying the injured and DNP deadweight did. Of course, adding the dead weight paid off. I wouldn't have had a chance against BWW without Mo Williams.

[writersblock]

Then we should give Cy a lot of credit for making the championship and leading as of today, since he only made two add/drops the entire season, keeping all but one player from his original draft.

And more proof that streaming doesn't interfere with a really well-balanced, well-drafted team.

[bww78]

It's anecdotal.

Streaming can have an effect on the playoffs. I'm not sure anyone would argue that point. The defense I'm reading, and correct me if I'm wrong, is:

1) Yes, streaming can have a materially adverse effect on the league, but no one actually streams, so we're ok; or

2) Yes, people are streaming, but it hasn't had an adversely material effect on the league.

Under the first scenario, we're just assuming no one will start streaming to get ahead. Plus, I would disagree with the premise in general.

Under the second, we're relying on an assumption that, even were it true today, may not, or even likely will not, be true in the future.

If the goal is to ensure streaming doesn't have a materially adverse effect on the league, then the only remedy is to keep rules that ban, reduce and/or discourage streaming.

[writersblock]

Technically, no, that proof is not anecdotal. It's evidence, plain and simple. If we could go back and look at all the people who have won this league, I don't think their add-drops would be that much higher than Cy's.

If anything is anecdotal, it's the "proof" some in this league try to put forward that streaming hurts the league, which there isn't a solid case when it has. In fact, it's not even good enough to be called "anecdotal"...I'd call it conjecture or even hypothetical, which is what the basis for our assumption of limiting add-drops: hypothetical problems.

Either way, I think the add-drops in the regular season at 45 was far too few. As many of us have pointed out, the sports forum league (with less managers) sets a 4 per week limit. Theoretically, there should be more problem and more complaining in that league about streaming, but there never is. Frankly, I think the ideal number is 3 per week.

[jazzfan1971]

I'm fine with 4 per week in regular season. And 1 per week for playoffs.

[writersblock]

I'm fine with 4 per week in regular season. And 1 per week for playoffs.

I'd go at least 2 in the playoffs, only because I had 3 guys injured for most of my playoff matchup against INSFO, but I can see the rationale for 1.

[jazzfan1971]

I guess 2 is acceptable.

[floppymoose]

4 per week = streaming

[writersblock]

Which is why I think 3 is the optimal number in the regular season, and 2 in the playoffs.

Keep in mind, this league is already built to deter streaming because you can't drop a mid-tier talent and expect him to be there when you want him like you can in other 12-14 team leagues. When you stream, at best, you're adding a guy who might give you some good numbers for a game or two, but in the long-run, won't, which means you're sacrificing value on your team. Eventually, you have to stream just to stay afloat because you've forfeited value.

[bww78]

Technically, no, that proof is not anecdotal. It's evidence, plain and simple. If we could go back and look at all the people who have won this league, I don't think their add-drops would be that much higher than Cy's.

If anything is anecdotal, it's the "proof" some in this league try to put forward that streaming hurts the league, which there isn't a solid case when it has. In fact, it's not even good enough to be called "anecdotal"...I'd call it conjecture or even hypothetical, which is what the basis for our assumption of limiting add-drops: hypothetical problems.

Either way, I think the add-drops in the regular season at 45 was far too few. As many of us have pointed out, the sports forum league (with less managers) sets a 4 per week limit. Theoretically, there should be more problem and more complaining in that league about streaming, but there never is. Frankly, I think the ideal number is 3 per week.

This, I think, is following the argument I referenced as No. 2 above: Yes, streaming is happening, but is has not yet hurt the league.

Even further, it is only hypothetical that it ever could hurt the league.

But I would counter that it is only hypothetical that it hasn't already. How do we know? How certain are we that streaming hasn't already had a deleterious effect on seasons past? I would argue that it has. Just look at the number of times Fran has made the playoffs. Can't we say with some modicum of certainty that Fran's inclusion in the playoffs in any given year, which was due at least in part to his streaming, has created a playoff scenario that would not have otherwise played out? If he is in, then someone else that would have made it, is not out. That changes forever the outcome of those playoffs. Is this not a quantifiable affect? I say yes.

I don't think it's hypothetical at all. The playoffs in this league are close, sometimes determined on the razor's edge. Any change from external forces will take sway on the final result. It's cause and effect. Cy may have won before, but would he have if streaming had been restricted previously? There's no way to know for certain, but we can say for certain that the playoffs would not have played out in the same way that they finally did. The outcome was changed, even if the eventual champion did not.

But stating that streaming has not had a materially negative affect on the playoffs through the years is just as specious an argument that we can't predict he affect of streaming in the future.

If streaming is not beneficial to the managers of the league, why are so many owners so vociferous in defending their right to do so?

[floppymoose]

WB, I can't figure out why you are arguing that using lots of moves doesn't help. Your actions are arguing against your words. You consistently use lots of moves every season. Clearly you must think it helps you.

[writersblock]

WB, I can't figure out why you are arguing that using lots of moves doesn't help. Your actions are arguing against your words. You consistently use lots of moves every season. Clearly you must think it helps you.

And I can't figure out why people complain about it hurting the league, when it clearly doesn't.

[Cyrus]

My team should have beaten infso like 7-2, but the picksup and such made it much closer, had my team not been so well balanced, and injury free, who knows...

I think playoff team should only 1 add/drop in the playoffs per a week.

[floppymoose]

WB, I can't figure out why you are arguing that using lots of moves doesn't help. Your actions are arguing against your words. You consistently use lots of moves every season. Clearly you must think it helps you.

And I can't figure out why people complain about it hurting the league, when it clearly doesn't.

Not sure who you are referring to there. What I've said about it is that it lessens my enjoyment of the game. And I figured if enough people felt my way, we'd lower the moves (which we did). It's just a preference over what game we want to play.

[hamncheese]

My team should have beaten infso like 7-2, but the picksup and such made it much closer, had my team not been so well balanced, and injury free, who knows...

I think playoff team should only 1 add/drop in the playoffs per a week.

Congratulations! You had a great season.

[writersblock]

Congrats Cy. It's quite a feat to win it all with the team you drafted. Part luck, part good drafting. Nice job.

I'm also pretty proud of my efforts this year. Finished 3rd overall, and had I played Cy for the final, I would have won (4-4 with the tie breaker going to me via points).

[bww78]

Congrats Cy. Our first two-time winner! Impressive drafting my friend.