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Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sat Jul 2, 2011 8:26 pm
by Doctor MJ
Ong_dynasty wrote:nothing against you, but as a whole of how we compare "g.o.a.t.s". we are literally witnessing the best player or a top3 player in my opinion but for some reason we belive he has to surpass federer grand slams? even though he has made the so called goat literally cry on tv?
as i said before, i am like u I would probably rate federer as a goat, but logically it does not make any sense since there is a player who is better than him.
There's really no basis for saying this other than the head-to-head matchup, which is hardly a reasonable end all be all for reasons discussed ad nauseum: 1) Different ages, 2) Different surfaces, 3) You can't judge players simply how they matchup against one guy.
In addition to Fed having the major accomplishment edge, he's also got the consistent domination edge. Nadal has yet to have any year where he has a record that really rivals the most dominating players in history. People want to say "Yeah, but Nadal wins them when they count.", except if that were the case he'd have a more dominating record than Fed in Grand Slams generally, which he doesn't.
I consider Nadal to be the mentally toughest guy around, and if his end career accomplishments warrant it, I'll have no qualms about anointing him GOAT even if he's never able to dominate a season like I'd hope, but the dude still has a lot left to accomplish before we get to that point.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sat Jul 2, 2011 8:29 pm
by Doctor MJ
UssjTrunks wrote:Injuries derailed her career.
Injuries didn't help, but there's really no doubt that given what she did at age 17 her ability to develop further has disappointed injury or no injury.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sat Jul 2, 2011 8:32 pm
by Doctor MJ
Good to see one of the new generation finally break through. Hard to see Kvitova as a Player of the Decade type of player at this point imho, but frankly, less hard than it is to see it happening for any other particular player in the field.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:54 am
by BULLZ1LLA
Doctor MJ wrote:Ong_dynasty wrote:nothing against you, but as a whole of how we compare "g.o.a.t.s". we are literally witnessing the best player or a top3 player in my opinion but for some reason we belive he has to surpass federer grand slams? even though he has made the so called goat literally cry on tv?
as i said before, i am like u I would probably rate federer as a goat, but logically it does not make any sense since there is a player who is better than him.
There's really no basis for saying this other than the head-to-head matchup, which is hardly a reasonable end all be all for reasons discussed ad nauseum: 1) Different ages, 2) Different surfaces, 3) You can't judge players simply how they matchup against one guy.
In addition to Fed having the major accomplishment edge, he's also got the consistent domination edge. Nadal has yet to have any year where he has a record that really rivals the most dominating players in history. People want to say "Yeah, but Nadal wins them when they count.", except if that were the case he'd have a more dominating record than Fed in Grand Slams generally, which he doesn't.
I consider Nadal to be the mentally toughest guy around, and if his end career accomplishments warrant it, I'll have no qualms about anointing him GOAT even if he's never able to dominate a season like I'd hope, but the dude still has a lot left to accomplish before we get to that point.
(Federer never won Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open in the same season. That's the hardest thing to do in a season, especially now that all 3 are on completely different surfaces. Nadal is the only man in history to win Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open in the same season on 3 completely different surfaces [Nadal won those 3 slams in a row last year, and he also became the first player ever to win 3 Masters Shields in a row. He also made the Final of the Indoor World Tour Finals, a year after going winless in that event]. I guess Nadal will have to win 4 slams in a row to dominate a season as much as you'd hope)
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 4:48 am
by Yoga
I predict Rafa wins in a 5 set thriller over Novak
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 6:45 am
by BULLZ1LLA
(Nadal is still the better tennis player, but on this occasion I predict Djokovic in 3 or 4)
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:33 pm
by Black Milk
BULLZ1LLA wrote:(I predict Rafa in 3 or 4)
So much for that. Djokovic is serving amazingly well this match.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:44 pm
by AdamTheGreek
Come on, Novak.
He'll concede this 3rd set. As long as Djokovic serves first to start the 4th, he's got this championship. The better player will win today.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 2:55 pm
by 5DOM
Lots of unforced errors from Djokovic this set
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:42 pm
by Jugs
BULLZ1LLA wrote:(I predict Rafa in 3 or 4)
Okay you're getting carried away here. I'm going to leave it as a public warning to you and everyone. No obscenities, no insults. ~Doc
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:43 pm
by Jugs
NOLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 3:43 pm
by Jugs
rafa in 3 or 4 hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 4:04 pm
by Dolgopolov
BULLZ1LLA wrote:(I predict Rafa in 3 or 4)
Don't you feel silly right now
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 5:02 pm
by EH15
lol I'm with all you guys, Go Novak
. Absolutely loved seeing him make Nadal eat dirt in the second set.
Does Sampras have the highest win % in GS finals (winning at least 10 of course)? Sorta like MJ being 6/6.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 5:23 pm
by Baphomet
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 5:28 pm
by Jugs
NOVAK IS THE PROVAK
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 7:51 pm
by KING JAMES1978
I'm happy for Djokovic.He deserve it and right now he is easily the best player in the game.
Imo if he had won Federer at Paris he had won the Roland Garros against Nadal.
But the most important thing for the game of tennis is that we have a new rivalry.With Federer out of his prime the new rivalry is Novak vs Rafa.
P.S If anyone forget it Roger Federer is the Greatest player ever.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 9:20 pm
by Doctor MJ
Fantastic match, and the exciting times continue on the men's side.
I've always been more fond of Fed & Rafa than Novak personally, but that's starting to change. I love how he's kept pushing himself and found a way to a new level. 4 years stuck at #3 could easily have made him give up, but it appears it only made him more determined.
It can't be stressed enough how impressive Djokovic's year has been thus far. If he keeps it up, it will be the most impressive season in history. I honestly can't believe it. I didn't think he had it in him. I had thought Nadal might reach this level, but he never has.
But of course, "keeping it up" will be no small feat...
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 10:07 pm
by Doctor MJ
BULLZ1LLA wrote:(Federer never won Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open in the same season. That's the hardest thing to do in a season, especially now that all 3 are on completely different surfaces. Rafa is the only man in history to win Roland Garros, Wimbledon, US Open in the same season on 3 completely different surfaces [Rafa won those 3 slams in a row last year, and he also became the first player ever to win 3 Masters Shields in a row. He also made the Final of the Indoor World Tour Finals, a year after going winless in that event]. I guess Rafa will have to win 4 slams in a row to dominate a season as much as you'd hope)
Let me try to be really precise here:
For me it's not about Nadal's 3 slams being less than others winning 3 slams. It's about factoring in everything a player plays to get the best picture of his ability to dominate. Of course I weigh the slams more than other matches, but this notion that non-major matches are completely different from the slams is silly.
3 players in question, here are their # of losses in their 4 best seasons before this year:
Federer: 4, 5, 6, 9
Nadal: 10, 10, 11, 12
Djokovic: 17, 18, 19, 19
It would be one thing if Nadal constantly disappointed in non-majors, and constantly dominated in the majors, but that's never been the case, people just get that impression because he's won in the finals at majors. However, before the finals he's much less dominant than someone like Federer.
Which is why Federer has 2 years where he won 3 majors and lost in the 4 finals of the 4th, an additional year where he made the finals in all tournaments, has two separate streaks where he made 10 & 8 finals in a row, while Nadal's for even making the semi's in a row is only 5 (and Fed's semi streak was of course 23).
Also, just for perspective, if we take out the French, here's how the 3 players in question look at major finals:
Federer 15-3
Nadal 4-3
Djokovic 3-2
The scale of which people perspective is skewed simply because Nadal's the clay GOAT, and Federer's easily Top 5 of all-time on clay, is utterly mind-blowing. If Federer were worse on clay, people would actually think he had a stronger case for overall GOAT.
Re: Wimbledon 2011
Posted: Sun Jul 3, 2011 11:13 pm
by Raps in 4
